Microtech for fd street/track days
08-20-16, 10:46 AM
#101
Engine, Not Motor
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 29,789
Likes: 0
Received 108 Likes
on
91 Posts
So just to beat this dead horse a little more as this thread has made me turn a critical eye on my Microtech again...
Two week sago I was driving back from the lumbar yard with a load of 15 foot lenths of red oak in the RX-7. I told you, I use my car. So there is some humor in hauling lumber in a 500HP bridgeported FC. But I had the hatch open and noticed that when I decal, even though the wideband was showing full lean, the cabin would fill with unburned fuel smell. To the point where it was obnoxious. Got home, checked to make sure the Decel fuel cut was still on. Yep, and at the same vacuum setting it has always been.
So my only conclusion is that the Microtech lies when it says injector time is zero during decal. In fact it is not a full fuel cut. Reading further in the manual, there is only ONE configurable parameter: the vacuum switch on point. And fuel cut is hard coded to only cut fuel above 2000 RPM! Ah, there's half the problem! So unlike any other ECU, I cannot set any other parameters for decal fuel cut and it will always dump fuel during decel if the RPMs are lower than 2001. So for years, unknowingly, I have been wasting fuel, polluting unnecessarily and pissing off everyone behind me.
Take a look at the decel settings in all other ECUs. Fully configurable. And another shortcoming of the Microtech is that decel is either on of off. Once you get back onto the throttle, fuel comes back in with a BANG leading to an over rich condition, bucking and hesitation. My observation is that this is caused by the fact that the ECU doesn't interpolate the fuel value...it pulls from the nearest bin then begins interpolating at the next calculation cycle. The only way to avoid the harshness is to tune rich. So again, wasting fuel, polluting.
Look at other ECUs which allow a gradual return of fuel after decel cut, including allowing custom wall wetting settings so that AFRs are maintained as steady as possible even though the port runners are dry from the decel event.
And that's the fundamental issue with the Microtech: it's about as basic a system as one can get, minimal functionality to run the engine. Because of things like this, a Microtech tune will never be an can never be remotely close in terms of drivability and fuel economy as even some of the most basic other ECUs. Yet one pays the same price for the Microtech. Oh, and still has to buy a stupid laptop adapter to allow laptop tuning!
Now to correct some misinformation. I stated earlier that Microtech doesn't provide any engine protection. That is incorrect. There is an announcement on their website that the new LTC series ECUs provide engine protection based on AFRs, oil pressure, fuel pressure, etc. HOWEVER, since the manual on the website available for download is still a PDF poorly scanned of the exact same manual I received when I purchased my LT8s in 2001 I can't comment on how well those functions may work nor how one would set them up.
Edit...Oh, and I also think it's rather funny when people make ECU comparisons based on their success with making power on that particular ECU. The WOT section of the map is by far the easiest to tune requiring the least amount of resolution and runs at the richest ratios where a tenth of an AFR makes no difference at all. Transient enrichments don't apply, idle controls don't apply, decel doesn't make a different, etc. etc. The WOT area of the map just supplies the correct amount of fuel to the engine and fires the plugs at the correct time. That's it. This is by far the easiest, least challenging area to tune and is where the least amount of time is spent tuning. ANY ECU that is remotely functional will have zero issues hosing fuel into an engine under boost at WOT.
Two week sago I was driving back from the lumbar yard with a load of 15 foot lenths of red oak in the RX-7. I told you, I use my car. So there is some humor in hauling lumber in a 500HP bridgeported FC. But I had the hatch open and noticed that when I decal, even though the wideband was showing full lean, the cabin would fill with unburned fuel smell. To the point where it was obnoxious. Got home, checked to make sure the Decel fuel cut was still on. Yep, and at the same vacuum setting it has always been.
So my only conclusion is that the Microtech lies when it says injector time is zero during decal. In fact it is not a full fuel cut. Reading further in the manual, there is only ONE configurable parameter: the vacuum switch on point. And fuel cut is hard coded to only cut fuel above 2000 RPM! Ah, there's half the problem! So unlike any other ECU, I cannot set any other parameters for decal fuel cut and it will always dump fuel during decel if the RPMs are lower than 2001. So for years, unknowingly, I have been wasting fuel, polluting unnecessarily and pissing off everyone behind me.
Take a look at the decel settings in all other ECUs. Fully configurable. And another shortcoming of the Microtech is that decel is either on of off. Once you get back onto the throttle, fuel comes back in with a BANG leading to an over rich condition, bucking and hesitation. My observation is that this is caused by the fact that the ECU doesn't interpolate the fuel value...it pulls from the nearest bin then begins interpolating at the next calculation cycle. The only way to avoid the harshness is to tune rich. So again, wasting fuel, polluting.
Look at other ECUs which allow a gradual return of fuel after decel cut, including allowing custom wall wetting settings so that AFRs are maintained as steady as possible even though the port runners are dry from the decel event.
And that's the fundamental issue with the Microtech: it's about as basic a system as one can get, minimal functionality to run the engine. Because of things like this, a Microtech tune will never be an can never be remotely close in terms of drivability and fuel economy as even some of the most basic other ECUs. Yet one pays the same price for the Microtech. Oh, and still has to buy a stupid laptop adapter to allow laptop tuning!
Now to correct some misinformation. I stated earlier that Microtech doesn't provide any engine protection. That is incorrect. There is an announcement on their website that the new LTC series ECUs provide engine protection based on AFRs, oil pressure, fuel pressure, etc. HOWEVER, since the manual on the website available for download is still a PDF poorly scanned of the exact same manual I received when I purchased my LT8s in 2001 I can't comment on how well those functions may work nor how one would set them up.
Edit...Oh, and I also think it's rather funny when people make ECU comparisons based on their success with making power on that particular ECU. The WOT section of the map is by far the easiest to tune requiring the least amount of resolution and runs at the richest ratios where a tenth of an AFR makes no difference at all. Transient enrichments don't apply, idle controls don't apply, decel doesn't make a different, etc. etc. The WOT area of the map just supplies the correct amount of fuel to the engine and fires the plugs at the correct time. That's it. This is by far the easiest, least challenging area to tune and is where the least amount of time is spent tuning. ANY ECU that is remotely functional will have zero issues hosing fuel into an engine under boost at WOT.
Last edited by Aaron Cake; 08-20-16 at 10:49 AM.
08-20-16, 09:06 PM
#103
Your car is probably not a 6 port turbo with a common plenum, so your car will absolutely drive differently. Also, OEM-ish for me is not good enough. I want a PCM that can interpolate between cells as good, if not better than a factory controller.
The horse should be well and dead here. The Microtech works. It always has, but it has shortcomings that can be overcome with a newer controller for the same price.
08-21-16, 10:28 AM
#105
Engine, Not Motor
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 29,789
Likes: 0
Received 108 Likes
on
91 Posts
It's funny you should mention driving "oem-ish". I think that's an excellent example of how poor the Microtech really is in a daily driver situation. Because if we look at the AFRs used in the Mazda OEM tune it's excessively rich almost everywhere. And they compensated by using the air pump, ACV and other related controls to blow air into the exhaust ports, manifold or cats (depending on load/RPM/temp). And these engines till have up to 3 separate idle controls. The cold start thermowax, the BAC, and some years have an ASV. Who ever heard of such a silly thing! Yet in the 80s, this was the standard of drivability and fuel economy.
The drivability of a bridgeport on a good tune is a world different than most people think. Even on my limited Microtech, I can still start the car by reaching in through the window and turning the key. No silly foot work. It will tool around town all day shifting at 2500 RPM and cruising at 2000 RPM. It idles at 1500 RPM at about 14:0 so the stink is minimal. Gets terrible city fuel economy (overlap...) but cruises on the highway at 16:0 and does mileage in the high 20s. Oh yeah, and to impress the kids made just over 400RWHP at 13 PSI, and just over 500 RWHP on the high side of 16 PSI.
Yet sometimes I get a hesitation when I tip back into the throttle...because the decal has sucked all the fuel from the walls and the ECU just hammered fuel back. Or sometimes I am accelerating at light throttle and due to the lack of resolution I drive through the lean-cruise area at light acceleration leading to hesitation. And there's some areas of the map (particularly with medium vacuum decels) where I have had to make a compromise between rich during decal or lean during tip-in/accell because the ridiculous 5" resolution (yes, 5" resolution! Who ever heard of something that asinine...think about that....that is 3 bins on the table which covers 90% of operating range!) doesn't allow me to access that area directly.
Contrast that to a bridgeport tune I did on a 1st gen (crazy setup, big turbo, 6 port, bridges cut into the rotor housings) with an MS1 years back. In 2 days I was able to achieve the near OEM drivability (and that's saying a LOT with a bridgeport!) that I have only reached about 90% of after carefully tweaking my Microtech map for years. All down to the ability to target one section of the map after another with precision to adjust the tune.
Look, I'm not hear to say "my tunes are awesome and everyone else's suck" but I have also found that MANY people are willing to accept drivability issues. Caused by a poor tune, or in the case of a Microtech, an ECU incapable of being tuned to an acceptable level. Some people don't even KNOW they have drivability issues because they haven't experienced anything different. Borne out by experience I have seen this again and again. People who have been driving their car tuned by a well known travelling tuner for years but then tell me "The only thing is, sometimes it lags at stop lights". Only for me take one look and say "The above idle area of the map has never been touched!" and find that this tuner just compensated by cranking up the throttle pumps. Many people have different thresholds of what constitutes an acceptable tune.
So hopefully this threads provides a good reference to someone looking through this subforum for ECU choices.
So go back to I think one of my first posts in this thread, I'd summarize it in the following:
The Microtech is a reliable, quality ECU. IT is an ideal ECU for drag strip or track use if advanced features like data logging and lots of extra I/O are not required.
For street use, there are much better choices of far more modern ECUs for the same or less money that offer feature sets fare more suited to daily driver and street use. Such as idle controls, closed loop AFRs, high resolution tables, better tuning software, among others. Such as the Haltech, MS3-Pro, etc.
08-23-16, 08:54 AM
#106
Engine, Not Motor
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 29,789
Likes: 0
Received 108 Likes
on
91 Posts
OK, look, not sure if anyone is listening nor cares at this point but something just popped into my head.
I have hardly ranted about the stupid, absolutely asinine, timing model of the Microtech.
It's set up like a virtual distributor.
In the sense that there is an RPM curve which sets the base timing curve like the weights on an old mechanical dizzy.
Then there is a manifold pressure based correction allowing you to "vacuum advance" the timing beyond the RPM curve, and retard it under boost.
There are also a few other correction curves: water temperature, air temp, etc.
Seriously, WTF?! Now at first glance, this seems reasonable. Until say, you want to run 40 degrees of timing during high vacuum decel. If you jack up the vacuum advance, you are also advancing timing in other areas. Because once again, the 5" resolution of all these curves begins to bit you in the butt.
Another possibility: you want to run timing in the 30s at high RPM. So you have no choice but to increase the RPM curve. But wait, you then run into boost and need to immediately drop the timing! You can't. Not without having the same timing drop everywhere. Example: you set you RPM curve to 30 degrees at 6000 RPM. Then you need to set the MAP based retard to 15 degrees at say 8 PSI. So now you see 15 degrees of timing at 6000 RPM at 8 PSI. Sweet. Then you realize that with the RPM curve set to 20 degrees at say 3000 RPM, you hit 8 PSI at that RPM and your timing is at 5 degrees because 15 is being pulled out. WTF?!
Every other ECU has a 3D timing table so you can run whatever timing you want at whatever load point you want.
The timing model alone is enough to make the Microtech unworthy of consideration. While timing is not critical to making power in a forced induction rotary, it is critical in terms of drivability, feel, and economy.
I have hardly ranted about the stupid, absolutely asinine, timing model of the Microtech.
It's set up like a virtual distributor.
In the sense that there is an RPM curve which sets the base timing curve like the weights on an old mechanical dizzy.
Then there is a manifold pressure based correction allowing you to "vacuum advance" the timing beyond the RPM curve, and retard it under boost.
There are also a few other correction curves: water temperature, air temp, etc.
Seriously, WTF?! Now at first glance, this seems reasonable. Until say, you want to run 40 degrees of timing during high vacuum decel. If you jack up the vacuum advance, you are also advancing timing in other areas. Because once again, the 5" resolution of all these curves begins to bit you in the butt.
Another possibility: you want to run timing in the 30s at high RPM. So you have no choice but to increase the RPM curve. But wait, you then run into boost and need to immediately drop the timing! You can't. Not without having the same timing drop everywhere. Example: you set you RPM curve to 30 degrees at 6000 RPM. Then you need to set the MAP based retard to 15 degrees at say 8 PSI. So now you see 15 degrees of timing at 6000 RPM at 8 PSI. Sweet. Then you realize that with the RPM curve set to 20 degrees at say 3000 RPM, you hit 8 PSI at that RPM and your timing is at 5 degrees because 15 is being pulled out. WTF?!
Every other ECU has a 3D timing table so you can run whatever timing you want at whatever load point you want.
The timing model alone is enough to make the Microtech unworthy of consideration. While timing is not critical to making power in a forced induction rotary, it is critical in terms of drivability, feel, and economy.
08-23-16, 10:49 AM
#107
I hear everyone loud and clear. I am learning a lot thanks to everyone. I will keep everyone posted once my car is up and running. Hopefully I will not experience to many driveability issues. Fd street port ,single turbo,re vmount,Bosch fuel pump and greedy boost controller.
08-23-16, 11:02 AM
#108
I hear everyone loud and clear. I am learning a lot thanks to everyone. I will keep everyone posted once my car is up and running. Hopefully I will not experience to many driveability issues. Fd street port ,single turbo,re vmount,Bosch fuel pump and greedy boost controller.
Many people with a modified car tend to think that certain quirks are part of having a modded car, and that is not true. It may run "fine" by your standards, but there are those of us who have driven literally hundreds, if not thousands of cars in various states of tune and such.
I get that your tuner only supports Microtech and that is who you trust, but we are trying to help you out. Your original question about if the controller being useful for racing was answered. Yes, it will work, but has limitations in fine tuning and datalogging.
You also asked about driving as a daily. Yes, it will work, but as Aaron pointed out, there are many primitive features that are far superior in many other controllers. Even the DIY Megasquirt 1 or 2.
As long as you are happy and your car runs for years, excellent. That is the end goal after all.
08-23-16, 11:17 AM
#109
I have definitely been educated on ecu concepts, functions options. My tuner is also my Mechanic. If he changes ecu to adaptationics I will sell both my ecu to buy it. Like driving an old z with the Weber as apossed to driving a 280zx. It is just the way it will for now. If it drives so shitty that I can't take it then I will cross that bridge when I get there. At least I know my options for ecu.
01-13-17, 08:36 PM
#111
Update
Seeing a little of the things you said Aaron. Going to have to change my injectors. Car either runs to rich or to lean with the injectors I have. I am happy over all and have faith my Mechanic can make it better but do see what you mean when you talk about microtech and injectors. I will get smaller injectors to help with tunnong. Boost comes on strong at about 3200 rpm at 15lbs.
12-14-18, 12:58 AM
#113
Teach Me Rotary
REVIVE!
On the same boat here
I have FC with LT8 microtech
and a FD with older PFC
mechanic and tuner prefers microtech asked if I want FD to be microtech can benefit from new harness at the meantime
all of their reliable street and drag cars all microtech
got a friend have adaptronics m2000
the wiring part was a pain in the *** they say
and the tuning part took awhile not to mention never really perfected it
he may look to travel further for bigger names in the states
BTW I am from Canada
I am someone that needs driveability on street and cornering track performance.
I always have problem keeping my FC running refined with microtech
it's great on WOT but other than that it's pretty rough car on daily basis
therefore there is risk of lots of trial and error on this new stuff.
who have successfully FULL TUNE the adaptronics?
Any recommandation?
On the same boat here
I have FC with LT8 microtech
and a FD with older PFC
mechanic and tuner prefers microtech asked if I want FD to be microtech can benefit from new harness at the meantime
all of their reliable street and drag cars all microtech
got a friend have adaptronics m2000
the wiring part was a pain in the *** they say
and the tuning part took awhile not to mention never really perfected it
he may look to travel further for bigger names in the states
BTW I am from Canada
I am someone that needs driveability on street and cornering track performance.
I always have problem keeping my FC running refined with microtech
it's great on WOT but other than that it's pretty rough car on daily basis
therefore there is risk of lots of trial and error on this new stuff.
who have successfully FULL TUNE the adaptronics?
Any recommandation?
12-16-18, 07:04 AM
#115
Yep
My car is Microtech and all though it works on the street i believe my car run smoother on the pfc. I drove my buddies car which is an fd with Microtech and it was a bit smoother than my car. I beleive that the twin scroll twin wastegates maybe causing a challenge to either my tuner or the Microtech itself. Twin scroll turbo and twin wastegates is the only big differences between my car and the car i drove. Hell we even have the same engine builder and tuner. WOT i am a bit rich at like 9.5 afr. I wish there was more to do but the car is super reliable and makes good power. I would stick with it unless you have a relialble tuner that tunes another ecu. Oh and about the adaptronics ya one of my buddies car is at turblown right now because of the complicating wiring and the fact there are no tuners in Fl for that ecu.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
