Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

WW2 planes ran a 50/50 mix partially for antifreeze considerations. the alcohol component shouldn't be overlooked when we understand that they ran leaner under boost.

so much for AI being new tech.

not

i do not know what the max safe AFR is on a water FD. i'll bet someone on this board has actually done it and would like to share.

we will find out in 09 no doubt.

dial8

iTrader: (4)

Howard this made me think of one possible problem. How much will you have to compensate with your Pre-Mix additive to avoid oil dilution with AI, if at all?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"How much will you have to compensate with your Pre-Mix additive to avoid oil dilution with AI, if at all?"

the addition of 1/2 oz per gallon of any 2 cycle oil to your gas tank is a very important piece of the rotary reliability proceedure. details why were discussed earlier in this thread. use 1 oz when dynoing or driving ontrack.

while some dilution may occur w methanol, based on my motor after 14,000 miles of 25% methanol AI i don't see a problem. my side seal gap increased a miniscule .001 of an inch! bearings look great (i will not have to replace them). rotors have very little face carbon, and no carbon in the apex and side seal grooves.

so the answer is, in spite of a bit of dilution the premix works well. remember that the meth only enters the motor in boost and the premix works all the time.

hc

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

TUNER'S SECTION

there are a bunch of first rate FD tuners that work w AI and the list is growing. this post is a sidebar for them to share their insights and accomplishments.

just post in this thread and i will paste your info into this post.

for instance.... Jason, at the RX7 store, recently built and tuned Ross Martin's FD and made over 600 rwhp on pump and a Coolingmist methanol system. the RX7 store has been offering CM's products for quite a while. perhaps either Jason or Ross would like to add the details. knock readings especially interestng...

all tuners or tuner-clients welcome

bzwigart

iTrader: (9)

I would really like to hear from tuners as to which kits they are using and the results.

I see rx7store has a whole kit for under $300.00. For those looking to get into the water scene, this may be a good inexpensive route. Jason care to chyme in??

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

I think you could use this to control maximum boost, while still using a manual controller to adjust pre-control with the sequential system.

Also, if the FJO unit is sensing a situation where it wants to cut boost... would it also be a good idea to cut spark? Or is that less than optimal?

///////in the event of a interuption of AI delivery in a "Tuned UP" enviornment boost cut doesn't happen fast enough. you want action on the next rotor face. ignition cut and/or fuel cut , while dramatic, is where it's at. howard////////

DriftDreamzSS

iTrader: (4)

If I wanted to run WI on a gt35r with max boost of 16psi and aiming for the 380-400whp range would a twin power be enough as the only upgrade to the ignition or would it require something more?

//////////////a Twin Power, w the right sparkplugs and good plug wires would work fine. howard//////////////

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Twin Power is enough for that.

thewird

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

So, would the FJO unit's boost controller be as capable as a Greddy Pofrec B Spec 2?

///////////reader's of this entire thread (recommended) will know the FJO AI comes w a boost control. the concept is to hook the AI and BC together so as to provide a boost cut in the event of various AI faults. during 08 i dynoed (july) w the FJO boost control operative and found it to be challenging to control boost. since my dyno time was valuable and limited i chose to disconnect the FJO BC. i used my AVC-R boost controller for my sep dyno session as FJO was still working the bugs out of the BC.... (remember my setup was a beta). i expect that FJO's BC will work fine as deliverd in 09 and it does convey certain advantages in that it can function as a safeguard within the AI system. further, the only issue is a settings issue and FJO is set up to be able to download software upgrades right into your module thru a laptop. besides the safeguard aspects the FJO features a high and low boost setting as well as an "off" setting. boost is set off a 156 cell X Y grid which is neat as it provides you w lots of boost options in addition to just target boost. howard///////////////

wb123

How long would a full tank of AI injection last you?

full 2qrt tank, like the one "aquamist" supplies in their setup

//////////// variables are: size of injectors/nozzles.... water around 300 to 500 CC/Min. meth generally 1000 to 1500 CC/Min.; amount of time you are in boost since AI flows only under boost..... doing the math...

500 CC/Min equals .528 of a quart or .132 of a gallon. keep in mind that you only are at max delivery at peak torque w an HD system and w a non HD system you are ramping up to peak torque at less than max delivery. howard///////////

Kento

Proper control of boost is the only real method, because detonation can occur simply from high combustion chamber temps, and you can get those without any spark from the ignition.

/////proper everything control is the only real method. however in the real world that may no always happen so we design as many safeguards as possible. boost cut, which i assume Kento is not referring to is a bit late when your engine goes lean due to lack of AI injectant and being "Tuned Up." you need help on the next rotor face! that only happens electrically... ignition retard or cut. harsh yes but compared to trashing your motor no. howard

NissanConvert

iTrader: (1)

GReddy boost relief valve. Cheap, mechanical boost control failsafe.

Clark_rx7

An excellant thread, Im getting a build done and will defiantely be incorparting this into it. Will a twin fuel pump assembly be enough for fuel needs in the FJO setup? or will I need to get a booster?

The setup Im having built will include or already have the following:
Engine: Rebuild w/ 2mm atkin cryo seals,"full street"port and tune by GorillaRE
Turbo: either T04z or GT4094R, not sure just yet
Fuel system: CJ MotorSports stage1 850cc/1680cc, with twin Walbro fuel assembly
Ignition: MSD High Voltage, 3coil pack
Cooling Mods: 2cycle oil injector, secondary electric water pump, oversize Koyo IC, not sure of rad.
EMS: PowerFC

//////// i like your setup alot. it will need a properly thought out AI system and should easily make 500 rw w little engine stress. the one item i would do differently would be the twin pumps. twin trouble in my opinion. i would go w a denso/cosmo pump and the Kenne Bell Boost A Pump. you also need a Datalogit and a preturbo digital EGT... see the instrumtation part of post 76 howard////////

Rixio_Scon

Whats your take on Pre Turbo AI. You touched on the Rice kit earlier.

///////// with the exception of the Rice Racing (Australia) preturbo AI system i am not aware of any preturbo kits offered for sale. as previously mentioned this thread is located within the 3rd Gen section and is meant to be an introduction to AI and facilitate members buying vendor kits and sharing of outcomes. the Auxilliary Injection section is where the R&D side of AI should reside. this is by no means a knock on the creative efforts but an acknowledgement that the primary interest of the readers (here) is of a more general nature. if someone buys and installs any Preturbo kit and if the kit is actually available for sale in volume then we are interested. howard//////

rallimike

iTrader: (1)

I also had another concern. My car runs at ambient most of the time. When it's below 32*, my intake temps are, too. Injecting post-turbo, with the necessary alcohol to prevent freezing, would lower the temps even more, and I don't think that's desirable.

////////the lower the temp the happier the motor. howard/////

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

Methanol AI... the new POWER PARADIGM

(this post will be folded into post #76 as it is designed to differentiate between the AI injectant options.)

just as water delivers previously unobtainable cooling/reliability to the turbo'd rotary alcohol/methanol brings POWER along with reliability.

we have been power limited pre-AI w the turbo'd rotary. too much CCP creates knock and rotary destruction. as a result we cruise around on pump gas at 375 rwhp. we visit the dyno, fuel up w $$ racegas, turn up the boost and end up w a piece of paper we can show to supra owners.

we stuff 3 rotor motors in our FDs in search of liveable 500+ ponies. maybe a modded V8.

often our weany turbo choice has been governed by these realities...

alternate engines (just like built rotaries) are alot of work. especially when you can make 500 or 600 rwhp reliably w the 2 rotor!

there is a much simpler, less expensive option.

Methanol Magic.

methanol is a new PARADIGM as it changes everything.

for instance EXEDY and ACT should be giving AI systems away. the reason?

500+ rwhp fries most clutches. my advice? save up some money, bite the bullet and buy yourself an Exedy twin cerametallic. i have 4 years on mine and love it.
the reason a twin disc is highly desireable when the V8 guys happily run a cheaper single disc?

the rotary is so compact the flywheel ends up being of small diameter limiting the available frictional surface. you have 2 options, up the spring pressure or double the surface by stacking 2 discs. the double disc uses much less spring pressure and is easier on your leg and the throwout arm. spend the $1400 once and you will be smiling as you go through the gears for years.

skip the much more expensive carbon/steel option. the cerametallic is emanently driveable. further, carbon's coefficient of friction varies from .39 to .48 depending on temperature while Exedy's patented cerametallic is .48 unvaried. after 4 years my friction surfaces look close to new... pics to follow.

so you need a clutch that will handle at least 450 ft pounds of rw TORQUE w methanol.

turbo selection doesn't have to be HP limited. methanol, when properly tuned, adds midrange torque... you can also run 30 psi so maybe you start looking at different compressor maps. you can look at 80 lbs per minute air delivery too.

exceptional porting becomes more valuable. what once was quite adequate is now a drag on performance. there are streetports and then there are Streetports... BTW, i am not a fan of bridgeports unless you are really racing almost all of the time. i know there are some on the other side on this but notice i am saying for a dual purpose FD. BP's hugely pollute the incoming combustion charge where most of us do our street driving. you can get most of what you want w a larger maxxed out street port... some call it extended streetport..... anyway, meth puts a premium on great ports.

continuing briefly on ports... the primary port is an often neglected part of the equation and presents a major performance upgrade if properly massaged.

the exhaust port also, and especially w the rotary, needs to be done just right. the timing of the release of the CCP is all about the exhaust port. too soon and you lose torque, too late and you lose torque. if you spend some time on Competition Cams' site you will gain an appreciation for what valve timing can do and the rotary is no different. when i look at ports i do view them from a degrees after top dead center, after bottom dead center and duration (opening) perspective.

in addition, the exhaust port can be widened to the point that apex seals warp in the center from inadequate cooling, you need to know when to say no.

ignition requirements, interestingly, are not as high as w water. the FD has an amazing ignition system from the getgo. Mazda did it right w the FD. crank fired from the factory... wow. no stone age distributor. all you really need is an MSD 6A on the leading plugs, a set of good wires (NGK or MSD work well), and the right heat range plugs.

Methanol, being a fuel takes some of the load off your primary fuel system. i run the usual 850/1600s and have seen my injector duty cycle decrease from about 90% before methanol to 72% with methanol.

which brings me to tuning.

INSTRUMENTATION MAKES UP FOR GENIUS

unless you feel really lucky spend some effort on instrumentation.

since you are embarking into the uncharted territory you need something to guide you.... sort of like having a compass.

here's what you need and it all must be digital and loggable, forget looking at an analog/digital gauge w your right foot on the floor:

minimum:

AFR
preturbo EGT(see my thread "Dual Digital EGTs")
knock (factory knock sensor works great when logged)
fuel pressure (FJO offers a screw in pressure sensor)


i use the Apexi Power FC- Datalogit and log the above along w exhaust back pressure (EBP) and a few other items. you really don't need (EBP) since your turbo setup has already been properly sized... (mine is a custom setup and i needed the info.)

anyway, back to tuning...

if you are running the FJO HD-AI setup i suggest you refer to the settings i have previously posted earlier in this thread. max alcohol delivery around peak torque which should be around 6000. trailing off 10 to 15% to 8000+rpm. curve into alcohol delivery starting around 2 to 5 psi boost. non HD systems adjust your delivery curve for max delivery around peak torque.

i suggest sizing delivery around 1000 to 1500 CC/Minute. you will go way rich if you start w a previous non HD map so start taking pump out until you reach the mid 11 AFR neighborhood. you will see knock decreasing mirror image to hp/rpm.

meanwhile you have tuned for mid 11 AFRs like most of us on the board do. now take a look at your EGT. you will want to see 1475 F from a couple of psi to one bar and 1550 from one bar up to max boost. if you don't see those numbers (you probably will see less) carefully advance the timing a degree at a time.

you now have 500 reliable rear wheel rotary hp.

since we are talking Paradigm here the next upgrade will be a 4 wheel set of RacingBrakes.

if you haven't been in a real 500 rwhp FD you won't appreciate the need to stop RIGHT NOW. a 500 RWHP FD is a true SUPERCAR, back to new Paradigm... you will need a new suspension. pls see my thread in the suspension section... "Howard Coleman's FD chassis/suspension setup." trust me, you 'll need to read post one.

and trust me, building an FD right almost never ends. i started mine in 99 and still have a few odds and ends to do.

to be continued

hc

cozmo kraemer

Anyway. I went with Aquamist and couldn't have been happier with the service and support I got from Richard. He was great! Always willing to help.

I would run a more vertical radiator like I had, fully ducted, and instead of running a top panel I would run a small/medium sized intercooler (similar to agfmoto, or whatever his SN is...I know his first name is Adam). He had the ideal intercooler setup if you ask me.

I like the IC because it allows you to run a certain amount of boost and not have to worry about peripheral systems. So in DD mode, the car can just run normally. And if you are in a frisky mood, just crank up the boost and turn the system on...with the AQ setup you could even set it so the boost wouldn't crank up UNLESS the system was on.

I would also run an IC because I like running pure water. Especially in a street car. You have to inject FAR less of the injectant to get sufficient results with water and as such you have better space utilization and easier packaging. For meth I would want at least a 3 gallon tank (as Howard has). You also have no fire issues and there are no sanctions in my local HPDE against what water can be stored in, in the car (where there are many for a Methanol container in the vehicle while on track).

If I was going to inject pure meth... then there would be absolutely no need for the IC...and let me tell you, the throttle response on a rotary with no IC and 3.5" exhaust piping, with a properly sized turbine is AWESOME! I mean REALLY good! So that is a big plus.



I would like to keep the thread on topic, but Howard I think you are overstepping here. The LSx swap was no harder, and in many regards, easier than properly setting up AI and tuning it to be completely functional on the rotary. Not only that... but you can be at 450whp with minimal additional effort and cost... and NO peripheral systems. There is something to be said for a lack of need for peripheral systems. Don't need a wideband, W/I with all the controllers, ignition amplifiers, EGT sensors and gauges, separate fuel containers in the passenger compartment, etc. So there are benefits. 500+whp is possible on the newer LS3/7 with the same effort as 400-450 on the LS1/2.

I like the car both ways... glad I got to experience both.

///////// yes, you can run no IC w meth but given the choice i would always run an IC. the cooler/denser the charge the more oxygen molecules per volume. my IC lowers the IAT 130 degrees.

as to alternate engines (20Bs especially included) being alot of work....

so is a properly fixtured rotary. notice i said 500-600 hp. LS2s don't make that kind of hp without alot of mods and once you start modding your V8 you find out all about lots of interesting V8 componentry. just visit the site and you see what i mean. so, you are correct in that i probably should of said (both) options require lots of work. i will edit the comment. i am not knocking alternate engines. howard///////

darkphantom

iTrader: (2)

howard i think we can say that 500hp is yesterday. we have alot of people now pushing 600hp with ai. the thing is to always have at least 20% of AI to your fuel system depending on your horspower level!

soon there will be a 700hp level. we just need gauges to go with the system so we know what its doing when tuning it properly!

/////////actually w meth AI you can make 700 rw.

but

600 is tops on the 2 rotor unless you want to take it to a whole 'nuther level of engineering/spending. and i do mean another level.

at just above 600 rw the crank, uh e-shaft, starts bending in the middle. (no center main bearing.) the rotors go off path and start galling the sideplates etc.

sure, you can add a center main for i don't know (or care) a number of thousands... and you can machine the rotors a bit..

i suggest you take a ride in a 500 rwhp FD at full throttle before you get all upset about not being able to afford to do the 700 hp mods.

there also is a drivetrain issue... above 600 you will want to take ALL of the drivetrain and junk it. (it was designed for 185 foot pounds of rear wheel torque)

after the drivetrain there is the matter of traction. you won't have any until around 120 mph. you will be running 12 inch rims right?

however, if you behave, you can pretty much have it all around 500-550.

and if you haven't actually driven, ridden in a 500+ hp FD i suggest you do it before engineering yourself into an abyss.

hc////////////////////////

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i did a re-edit starting w post 84. you will find additional info starting at that point.

apologies to all deleted but the thread needs to stay on a basic message.

hc

jojodotcom

iTrader: (6)

I know MPG is probably the last thing on FD owners' mind But does AI in theory increase your MPG? Since you can tune the car to run leaner than factory Given the same HP (with increased reliability)
Or is the the increase minimal...?

/// a good question. AI only works in positive turbo boost. if you are injecting water you can "Tune Up" a bit by leaning the motor... maybe a half an AFR. so in theory you could save a touch of petrol... it would be inconsequential unless you always are driving in boost. in that case the gas money you save you can escrow to get out of jail. if you run methanol you generally do cut 25% of your gas out of the engine and replace it w meth, only under boost. since you can make 500+ hp V 400 on pump alone you will probably not be saving overall but you will be flying. i paid $2.99 a gallon for meth in milwaukee in 08. howard////

bzwigart

iTrader: (9)

Has anyone been in conact with Alamo yet? Is the system available? Do we know exactly what components are included?

Dudemaaanownsanrx7

iTrader: (23)

Expanding a bit on the fuel economy aspect.... if you do want a reliable 500 hp 2 rotor rotary, there are a few ways to do it. Race gas, e85, and aux injection.

Looking at each of these, race gas cost way too much to run on a DD car, e85 uses 30% more fuel so you can expect a 30% decrease in fuel economy at all times. Aux injection is used only under boost, so in effect your fuel economy will stay the same under cruising. With meth injection you're replacing pump fuel with another fuel of lesser heat value/volume, so your overall economy under boost would go down a bit. Though once more experimenting with leaner afr's is done this could probably be offset. Then again, who cares about fuel economy under boost? Maybe road racers.

Water injection, as Howard mentioned, will allow for a slight decrease in fuel consumption under boost, only if it's tuned up for the water. With water being free there would be no additional fuel costs.

I also wonder if there would be any benefits to running a small amount of water off boost to increase fuel economy. There were a few small tests done with a couple cars with mixed results, as far as i know no extensive testing has been done, and the cars i saw tested had stock computers. The theory was the stock computer would raise the timing and make other adjustments by itself to increase economy. Not nearly as effective as a stand alone fuel management properly tuned IMO.

hsitko

iTrader: (1)

Hey Howard! I was curious about your egt tuning. I was wondering if the 1475 target from 0 to one bar is the same for an ai equipped system as a non ai equipped system. This is a great thread, thank you for your contributions to this community!

--Hank

/////i am not the best person on the board to answer the non AI pre turbo EGT question. i can only speak for AI. the key is knock. while i have stated that you want to sneak up on knock while raising the boost and advancing the timing it is possible to do just that by starting rich and modest on ignition advance. the key of course is having instrumentation. if you read the turbobuick board you will find they raise boost and add ignition with a primary eye on knock. that would probably work in the non AI world. howard/////

darkphantom

iTrader: (2)

no reason for me to go into the abyss considering how much power i have already!

darkphantom

iTrader: (2)

howard to keep on the subject i got a question. since you can only tell how your afrs are when WOT is it necessary to run it then adjust as your on the throttle. so you can say its more of a street tune easier than would a dyno tune!