Glass Machine

When i was at work the other day A GUY ******* KICK A DENT IN MY CAR! Just got it not even 2 months ago and it was perfectly clean no dents paint all was good... then some stupid ******, fucked it up. GOD DAMN IT I HATE PEOPLE! Sorry hat to get that out of the way.


I am up in Seattle area and I have always wanted a 20b, I dont know why I guess I just like the sound of them and the idea that I would have one more Rotay then the other 7's .

hanman

$45k

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Yep, that's a pretty good estimate.

If you can do the work yourself, you can probably get away with $20K. $15K if you are a bit resourceful in finding parts. $10K if you beg, borrow, steal, cut corners and scour the Internet for bargains.

But based on your question, you will be paying a shop to do the labour which means $30-$50K.

Glass Machine

Hmm well thats not to bad... I was hopping on doing the work my self. but i guess the hardest part would be getting or making the eccentric shaft, but any good machine shop should be able to make one. Right? then I should be able to build off of a 13b by adding the third rotar housing? From what i under stand thats all a 20b was just a 13b with one more rotary housing... unless that would make it a 13G?

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Why would you make an eccentric shaft? The 20B is not simply a 13B with an extra housing. It uses a two piece eccentric shaft and then a "thick" front-middle iron with an extra bearing to support the shaft. It is kind of like a 13B with an extra rotor added to the front, but there is considerable stuff to support that 3rd rotor.

Starting with an actual 20B will surly be cheaper then building your own.

I'm a bit confused that you are comfortable and experienced with fabrication, yet asked about the process of installing a 20B. Someone who is knowledgeable in this stuff would have went over to the 20B forum, read a bunch, and then started the project.

ultrataco

iTrader: (2)

For some reason I thought it was more like 10k. Guess I won't be doing that anytime soon... or ever.


(btw, just discovered this new member forum. good idea.)

Glass Machine

Well like I said I am new lol and I dont know much. Just from what i have seen and the over simplified things that i have heard, I was just wondering if any of the ideas i got was right. thats why i joined here so i can get it straght. Just some random ideas i had did not think i could do them as simple as that, but still wanted to toss them out there.

Now if you dont mind i have one more thing to ask JDM sell 20B $3,499.99 if I did get it what would need to be done/got, other then mounting brackets in the engine bay... I know this is said some other place but like i said am new i am not good at navigating the threads yet.


Thanks

rowtareh?

iTrader: (1)

The things that kill a 20B project, or any type of engine swap in a car that is not originally supposed to have that swapped motor, is the small things. Fuel system, ecu, trans and motor mounts (usually custom fabrication), oiling systems, custom downpipe, custom manifold, etc.


My suggestion to you, is read alot in the 20B Section of this forum, and read alot! You don't need to know how navigate through the forum's, you just need to stick to a certain section, and just read read read. I spent 2+ years on this forum, and I only had 7 posts in those 2 years. I read the entire time pretty much on everything I could, and I still learn new things every day. I am now almost 7 years in, and still am learning new things and taking in more information than my brain can handle. Listen to the Mods, they are your friends.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

As mentioned in the post above, the best thing you can do is just read through the 20B forum. There is a detailed FAQ that covers all the common questions.

Well, the short answer is "everything". Besides a set of mounts you need:

-full standalone EMS
-ignition coils
-totally upgraded fuel system (pump, injectors, etc.)
-turbocharger and manifold (manifold is custom in 20B applications)
-intercooler, all piping, again custom since it's a 20B
-full custom exhaust
-complete TII drivetrain (transmission, driveshaft, rear end, axles, clutch assembly, slave cylinder, starter, etc.)
-aftermarket lightweight flywheel (all 20Bs are automatic)

Then all the "extras" which most people don't consider:
-hoses and lines (those add up very quickly)
-gauges
-aftermarket clutch
-big wide tires to get the power down

And I know that I'm forgetting some stuff because this is just off the top of my head.

Most of what is bolted to the 20B block will be unusable to you. The turbos won't be of much use because you will likely go to a big single turbo, the ECU will be no good, wiring won't help, etc.

ultrataco

iTrader: (2)

Why do people always do a turbo 20b? Is the turbo required? If I had the money to do a 20b, I'd want to do it n/a. How much power does a atock 20B make n/a?

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

Forum member gmonsen has a wonderful NA 20b. If you search his stuff out you'll find plenty of info. Off the top of my head it's 350hp or so with a lot of torque. Regarding the turbo, Gordon is already gearing for another 20b swap into another car but turbo this time.

Like the others said, getting a 20b into the engine bay is the easy part. Getting it to run will is where all the dollars disappear.

Dave

sm0keyii

iTrader: (1)

I've been doing pretty much what Rowtarded has been doing. I'm pretty much a registered lurker lol. Read enough and you eventually learn quite a bit. After I did my first engine swap and being successful, I'm going to attempt a 20b later on. Just keep on reading, reading, reading. Then read some more. I've read so much that I actually dreamed about drivng my FD with a 20b in it. I didn't want to wake up My route will be simple. A path that is already made is easier to walk through. I plan on budgeting for a set up to use Defined Autoworks 20b mount kit. It's one less thing to think about and can take a lot of the out of the mounting process.

If you get time check out some websites that are 20b specific. Look for online shops like kiwi-re and stuff learn from them too. Be a sponge!!

Christopher W.

iTrader: (2)

Gordon's next 20B adventure is a 20B with a Whipple supercharger....not a turbo.
That is what I always wanted to do but I don't have his kind of $$$$.

I am in the middle of doing a 20B N/A in a FC GTUs. I think the numbers quoted are pretty accurate. I would say don't think about anything less than $25,000 unless you are an accomplished mechanic and tuner. By that I don't me a parts changer such as myself. You have to be a fabricator. and all around automotive expert. I will have almost double that in mine by the time I am done. I am having about 85% of the work done for me though... Specifically Defined Autoworks.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

The 20B NA setup is an interesting thing to consider. I think it's a great idea, as long as it is done correctly. This means swapping the stock low compression rotors for S5 NA high compression, porting out the ridiculous stock exhaust ports (replace the sleeves with something that doesn't suck) and then figure out an intake manifold that works well but isn't obnoxious like ITBs.

Now, the thing to consider is why not just use the 20B as is? From the factory, it comes with a set of sequential twin turbos that tend to work very well. In factory form it's supposed to make about "280HP" but that's a 280HP like many Japanese cars claim. I have never seen a stock 20B dyno, but I bet it's a lot more then 280HP. Turn up the boost just a little on the stock turbos and the engine will make 400HP all day, with a lot more torque then it would ever have in NA form.

Throw on a single turbo, run low boost on cheap fuel (87 octane) and 450HP shouldn't be an issue. More boost, premium fuel and the fun starts at 500HP.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

Erik Strelnieks FD runs a "stock" 20B longblock. It's not a slow car.

And yes, I forgot Gordon is talking supercharging. I just knew it was going to be boosted.

Dave

Glass Machine

Looks like I have a lot of reading reading reading and more reading to look forword to. The good news is it looks like with "everything" needed to be done to make the 20B work, I am going to have a lot of fun. I like things like this, no hurry to get it done slowly work on it. Thanks guy for taking your time, if you know of any Threads off the top of your head that you know i would like, plz send me link.

Hey anyone want a 84' GLS in the Seattle - Kirkland area?

ultrataco

iTrader: (2)

Oh, I see. I didn't realize anything had to be done to make it na. I assumed that meant just not installing any turbo.

I've never been a fan of turbos, mostly because of the sound, not to mention the lag and extra hardware required. I'm not a horsepower junky, so 200-300 would be more than plenty for me.

sorry to sort of hijack your thread, Glass Machine

Glass Machine

Hahaha its all good ultrataco no worrys, I am with you on not being a horsepower junky but am would be happy with being 300-350 ideally, but right now I have other work... you know the small things like power window switchs, get rid of the racing seats that the guy who had it be for me put in and get some stock seats in, if i did not know any better he went around and sat in abunch of seats and said he these feel like sh** I am going to put them in haha.

rowtareh?

iTrader: (1)

There is nothing like a boosted rotary engine. You might not like lag, and all the essential hardware, but when things run perfectly, it's not even comparable to an N/A setup. That's not to say N/A is a horrible set up at all.


Aaron- You sure about running 87 octane on a 20B? How low boost are we talking? And I don't even recall the compression of a 20B, so that might be why I am questioniong using 87.

Christopher W.

iTrader: (2)

I guess it all depends on what you are wanting and expecting whether going turbo or staying N/A is appealing. I thought very long and hard about it.. Maybe it is my age or something but I am happy to stay around 360 to 370rwhp in a 2800lbs car. I have ridden in a couple of 450rwhp second gens. They were crazy fast to me. But I have also ridden in Logan's (Defined Autoworks) third gen, gutted basically race car 20B N/A and it was making 313 using a Dynopack dyno (very conserative dyno) probably more like 340 Logan says. It probably weighed in the 2600lb range. It felt awesome... No lag, linear response definitely has some merit. I am building a street car. It will do maybe three track days a year. I also think I will only put about 5k miles a year.

Believe me, I have a contingency plan if after a while I want more hp. I think that my car is going to turn out to be a very balance, fun and pretty exotic street car. Not that a turbo 20B isn't pretty exotic.. I will give up some power for more balance.

The sound of six ITBs, semi-pport and three Borla muffler system is going to sound awesome.

I guess it is all just what your priorities are. My now have shifted to just getting the thing done. Dreams of perfection in every way are sort of taking a back seat.

I was told by Logan that when my engine is done and tuned it will be running on 87octane. I have N/A rotors in the 20B.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

As mentioned in this thread previously, the 20B FAQ in the 20B forum is a wonderful source of information on all things 20B, including the very basics.

All 20Bs were twin sequential turbo, and were only available in automatic. The Eunos Cosmo had two engine options: the 13B-RE and the 20B-REW.

Mazda has never released a rotary car that had any sort of turbo lag. Lag is a product of improperly sizing the turbo to the engine, or shoving a monstrous unit on there to make a dyno queen or drag car.

Consider a turbo 13B then. 300HP is trivial and a hell of a lot easier and cheaper then a 20B.

I picture a stock port 20B with a largish single turbo, running low boost (< 10 PSI).

rowtareh?

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I can see running 87 in a 20B with a smaller single on ~10psi. That's what you can do in a S4 TII. Don't see how you can't get it tuned under 87 octane.

BASTARD

iTrader: (4)

I run an unopened 20b without the turbos... the motor is a little tired but it still puts down the power. The numbers I have heard for a stock 20b in N/A form is about 240-250... and i will have to say that sounds right on the ball. I run mine on 87 pump gas.

My 20b cost me 1000 bucks plus all the peripherals to get it in and running.. mounts, header, ECU..etc. All done and said it adds up to about $4000.oo. It still needs a rebuild and when that happens I will port it and put in S5 N/A rotors. I expect to pay another 3 to 4k for the rebuild. It still needs a lot of finish work like fabricating radiator mounts... right now the radiator is held in by tiedowns



best of luck on finding a 1000 dollar 20b though, it took me years of daily searching and a lot of luck