Blew an apex seal...
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Near Future RX-7 *****??
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From: Miami, FL
Blew an apex seal...
So everything leads me to believe i blew an apex seal on friday.
I was at this new 1/8th mile track here in miami and ran the car 4 times. in 3rd gear on the 3rd run it was backfiring down around 6k rpm. i sat it out for like an hr and then got called to race a buddy in a truck... so i figured ok whatever one more wont hurt, the car's been running fine the whole night.
4th run - 1st gear fine, shifted at about 6.5k rpm... 2nd gear barely gets started and a sudden loss of power, i let off the gas and my boost gauge shows the vacuum bouncing and the car is acting really sloppy... i thought i blew the turbo cuz it just suddenly lost compression but after further review and having some rotary guys at the track listen to the car and look at the gauges they are all pretty certain it's an apex seal. i can almost hear the seal bouncing around in there. either way after the seal blew the damage was done so i drove it home about 10 miles easy on the throttle.... the car barely moves in first... went on the highway at about 40mph all the way home.
now here's my questions:
1.) If i blew an apex seal, all i need is the replacement apex seals (obviously going to buy something tougher this time) with the springs?? (assuming no damage to the housing)
2.) What apex seals are KNOWN to be tough for a single turbo 15psi car? I've heard a lot of mixed reviews but the guy at the track running a 13b in some 1968 corolla at like 60psi told me some SuperSeals makes these apex seals that just do not break (2mm) - *note: closest google search got me to RA SuperSeals.. is that it?*
3.) The guy who sold me the car told me the engine had just been rebuilt with 3mm apex seals, does this mean they actually widened the slot where the factory seals go and any replacement seals i buy have to be 3mm??
Is finding out if they are 3mm as easy as measuring the flat end of it?
4.) Do i actually need the full kit to reseal the engine, rear main, all those seals if the engine was rebuilt like 3k miles ago? the obvious answer is yes reseal with new seals every time u reopen the engine, but are they reusable at all since they are relatively new?
5.) If the apex seal busted what OTHER damage could incur other than scratching of the entire housing? I know one of the guys told me that theres certain apex seals that bust and dont do any damage to the housing, which would be my best case scenario.
sry for the huge post! thanks
I was at this new 1/8th mile track here in miami and ran the car 4 times. in 3rd gear on the 3rd run it was backfiring down around 6k rpm. i sat it out for like an hr and then got called to race a buddy in a truck... so i figured ok whatever one more wont hurt, the car's been running fine the whole night.
4th run - 1st gear fine, shifted at about 6.5k rpm... 2nd gear barely gets started and a sudden loss of power, i let off the gas and my boost gauge shows the vacuum bouncing and the car is acting really sloppy... i thought i blew the turbo cuz it just suddenly lost compression but after further review and having some rotary guys at the track listen to the car and look at the gauges they are all pretty certain it's an apex seal. i can almost hear the seal bouncing around in there. either way after the seal blew the damage was done so i drove it home about 10 miles easy on the throttle.... the car barely moves in first... went on the highway at about 40mph all the way home.
now here's my questions:
1.) If i blew an apex seal, all i need is the replacement apex seals (obviously going to buy something tougher this time) with the springs?? (assuming no damage to the housing)
2.) What apex seals are KNOWN to be tough for a single turbo 15psi car? I've heard a lot of mixed reviews but the guy at the track running a 13b in some 1968 corolla at like 60psi told me some SuperSeals makes these apex seals that just do not break (2mm) - *note: closest google search got me to RA SuperSeals.. is that it?*
3.) The guy who sold me the car told me the engine had just been rebuilt with 3mm apex seals, does this mean they actually widened the slot where the factory seals go and any replacement seals i buy have to be 3mm??
Is finding out if they are 3mm as easy as measuring the flat end of it?
4.) Do i actually need the full kit to reseal the engine, rear main, all those seals if the engine was rebuilt like 3k miles ago? the obvious answer is yes reseal with new seals every time u reopen the engine, but are they reusable at all since they are relatively new?
5.) If the apex seal busted what OTHER damage could incur other than scratching of the entire housing? I know one of the guys told me that theres certain apex seals that bust and dont do any damage to the housing, which would be my best case scenario.
sry for the huge post! thanks
now here's my questions:
1.) if i blew an apex seal, all i need is the replacement apex seals (obviously going to buy something tougher this time) with the springs?? (assuming no damage to the housing)
yes and no, yes you will have to replace the apex seals, there will be damage to the housing, also you have a blown turbo because it ate the seal.
2.) what apex seals are known to be tough for a single turbo 15psi car? I've heard a lot of mixed reviews but the guy at the track running a 13b in some 1968 corolla at like 60psi told me some superseals makes these apex seals that just do not break (2mm) - *note: Closest google search got me to ra superseals.. Is that it?*
yes they are really hard to break, but will warp before they break
3.) the guy who sold me the car told me the engine had just been rebuilt with 3mm apex seals, does this mean they actually widened the slot where the factory seals go and any replacement seals i buy have to be 3mm??
Is finding out if they are 3mm as easy as measuring the flat end of it?
if you take the turbo/manifold off and look into the exhuast you should be able to tell 1) witch if not both rotors blew and if you have 2mm or 3mm
4.) do i actually need the full kit to reseal the engine, rear main, all those seals if the engine was rebuilt like 3k miles ago? The obvious answer is yes reseal with new seals every time u reopen the engine, but are they reusable at all since they are relatively new?
yes and no, the front and rear seals can be reused, none of the coolant seals are savable, sence you dont sound like a big time rotary guy, i would have someone else rebuild it for you, and just replace all the seals
5.) if the apex seal busted what other damage could incur other than scratching of the entire housing? I know one of the guys told me that theres certain apex seals that bust and dont do any damage to the housing, which would be my best case scenario.
most if not all apex seals will damage the housing, turbo, and sometimes hurt the rotor also.
sry for the huge post! Thanks
no prob
1.) if i blew an apex seal, all i need is the replacement apex seals (obviously going to buy something tougher this time) with the springs?? (assuming no damage to the housing)
yes and no, yes you will have to replace the apex seals, there will be damage to the housing, also you have a blown turbo because it ate the seal.
2.) what apex seals are known to be tough for a single turbo 15psi car? I've heard a lot of mixed reviews but the guy at the track running a 13b in some 1968 corolla at like 60psi told me some superseals makes these apex seals that just do not break (2mm) - *note: Closest google search got me to ra superseals.. Is that it?*
yes they are really hard to break, but will warp before they break
3.) the guy who sold me the car told me the engine had just been rebuilt with 3mm apex seals, does this mean they actually widened the slot where the factory seals go and any replacement seals i buy have to be 3mm??
Is finding out if they are 3mm as easy as measuring the flat end of it?
if you take the turbo/manifold off and look into the exhuast you should be able to tell 1) witch if not both rotors blew and if you have 2mm or 3mm
4.) do i actually need the full kit to reseal the engine, rear main, all those seals if the engine was rebuilt like 3k miles ago? The obvious answer is yes reseal with new seals every time u reopen the engine, but are they reusable at all since they are relatively new?
yes and no, the front and rear seals can be reused, none of the coolant seals are savable, sence you dont sound like a big time rotary guy, i would have someone else rebuild it for you, and just replace all the seals
5.) if the apex seal busted what other damage could incur other than scratching of the entire housing? I know one of the guys told me that theres certain apex seals that bust and dont do any damage to the housing, which would be my best case scenario.
most if not all apex seals will damage the housing, turbo, and sometimes hurt the rotor also.
sry for the huge post! Thanks
no prob
Before proceeding with plans for a rebuild, run a compression test to verify your suspicions of a failed apex seal. Check for ECU error codes as well to determine if there is a component failure. Based on what you say, the engine could just be in limp mode caused by failure of a fuel/emission-related component. [Think positive!] You don't always get a CEL with component failure. If you don't have one, download a copy of the factory service manual from the link in the appropriate FAQ.
If the seal did fail, it is likely that there will be internal damage possibly requiring replacement of housings and/or a rotor. Especially since you drove the car after first experiencing the problem. You will definitely want to do a full rebuild if that's the case, replacing seals and 'O' rings, etc..
If the seal did fail, it is likely that there will be internal damage possibly requiring replacement of housings and/or a rotor. Especially since you drove the car after first experiencing the problem. You will definitely want to do a full rebuild if that's the case, replacing seals and 'O' rings, etc..
Thread Starter
Near Future RX-7 *****??
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From: Miami, FL
yo whats up polito. i'm probably gonna need to run some preliminary tests such as removing spark plugs and turning the engine, stuff like that before i can decide whether the apex seals busted or not. according to this : http://www.aaroncake.net/rx-7/blown.htm
it seems like I should check if an injector is stuck open or something like that.
btw i dont believe my turbo is blown because i checked and it still boosts all the way up to 15psi even on the "half dead" engine or whatever it is... and if the turbo swallowed the seal it would more than likely be destroyed.... the turbo seems to be fine... and its not leaking or anything.
it seems like I should check if an injector is stuck open or something like that.
btw i dont believe my turbo is blown because i checked and it still boosts all the way up to 15psi even on the "half dead" engine or whatever it is... and if the turbo swallowed the seal it would more than likely be destroyed.... the turbo seems to be fine... and its not leaking or anything.
cool let me know what you do and if you end up needing help. but trust me you blew an apex seal!! I have a compression gauge and my tools here if you need help checking the compression on the engine. About the pieces of apex seals not destroying your turbine, Ive seen it happen many times. so dont guide yourself by that. but anyway you have my number. take care
Thread Starter
Near Future RX-7 *****??
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From: Miami, FL
im getting my car back today i was having a wheel repaired and i'll probably give you a call later today or tomorrow polito just to get a compression test and check out whats going on. thanks again bro
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Thread Starter
Near Future RX-7 *****??
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From: Miami, FL
so here's the question... what's the best apex seal 2mm and what about 3mm in case it did have 3mm seals?
anyone wanna list out some good brands, along with average prices, and common issues?
right now my thoughts are RA SuperSeals even tho i have little info more than someone showed me their car running the 2mm ones boosting 60psi no problems ever....
and stock mazda seals which seem to be fairly reliable??
I'm not running over 10psi ever again until i get the fuel system upgraded... didnt kno even the pump was stock, damn previous owners!! and lack of time to check it out. i learned!
thanks!
anyone wanna list out some good brands, along with average prices, and common issues?
right now my thoughts are RA SuperSeals even tho i have little info more than someone showed me their car running the 2mm ones boosting 60psi no problems ever....
and stock mazda seals which seem to be fairly reliable??
I'm not running over 10psi ever again until i get the fuel system upgraded... didnt kno even the pump was stock, damn previous owners!! and lack of time to check it out. i learned!
thanks!
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Joined: Nov 2006
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From: Vancouver, Canada
it may not be a seal.. i thought that a fc i baught had no apex seals in the front rotor but the side seals fused to the rotor and the engine was fine ! 
but more then likely is.. side seals fusing occured from running low on oil lol
but more then likely is.. side seals fusing occured from running low on oil lol
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Near Future RX-7 *****??
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From: Miami, FL
UPDATE!!
Opened the engine today and I saw that the front housing was the trouble. Apex seals bent a little and let compression through the middle, and then one of them busted on the corner and ended up scratching the housing really deeply. Luckily no rotor damage or anything like that,
soooooo All i'll need is a housing and some apex seals... and of course the kit to reseal the engine.
Also, the guy who's doing this for me is reallllly a rotary guy, and he suggested I get a knock sensor that I can have a light on the inside feed me info if it's knocking or whatnot. He told me of one that has sensitivity so if i'm driving regular and it detects knocking etc i can just turn the sensitivity down... then when the light comes on it means somethings really up so i can let off the gas. what do you guys think? and can anyone link me to these? i searched but all i found was the regular knock sensor replacement. i dunno what to look for!
Opened the engine today and I saw that the front housing was the trouble. Apex seals bent a little and let compression through the middle, and then one of them busted on the corner and ended up scratching the housing really deeply. Luckily no rotor damage or anything like that,
soooooo All i'll need is a housing and some apex seals... and of course the kit to reseal the engine.
Also, the guy who's doing this for me is reallllly a rotary guy, and he suggested I get a knock sensor that I can have a light on the inside feed me info if it's knocking or whatnot. He told me of one that has sensitivity so if i'm driving regular and it detects knocking etc i can just turn the sensitivity down... then when the light comes on it means somethings really up so i can let off the gas. what do you guys think? and can anyone link me to these? i searched but all i found was the regular knock sensor replacement. i dunno what to look for!
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Info on high performance apex seals, sounds very interesting: http://sterlingmetalworks.com/bymc/index.php?topic=91.0
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Info on high performance apex seals, sounds very interesting: http://sterlingmetalworks.com/bymc/index.php?topic=91.0
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From: Grand Rapids Michigan
Copied from the linked site:
Hello Guys
Sorry that I have been so quiet but I am on the road much of the time and well you know the PC is time consuming.
I will respond to a few of comments.
Sterling's engine will be built using oversize 12A Goopy Apex Seals & Solid corner seals . Our intention is to have .001 of clearance on all wear parts on rotor. We manufacture both a stock size 12A seal which measures .115 and a oversize seal @ .118. This is due to the fact that 9 out of 10 used 12A rotors are out of tolerance in the area of the apex seal slot.
They are shaped like a V from all the years of use where the apex seal slopped back and fourth thus leaving outrageous clearances when reusing them. Our seals also have a proprietary coating on all surfaces that lower the (COF) coefficient of friction.
Our main objective with these tight clearances are high compression #s.
We @ Goopy Performance have built a 12A engines with all used parts except the wear parts and have obtained
#135 of compression.
Good sealing characteristics are key ingredients to high compression #s that will eventually reflect a good Vacuum or how Sterling puts it "Signal"
Tight clearances also help to isolate the Apex Seal SPRINGS from the actual flame in the combustion chamber.
This is a big issue with turbo motors with not only the over all radiant heat from the engine affecting the spring but the flame front distorts them even more to them eventually relaxing and loosing their deflection.
Over the years i have observed many rebuilds using both new and used components and its evident what engine is built right and which one is compromised.
One indicator is to see where the car idles at, fuel consumtion MPG etc
Ive seen some rebuilds where they have a hard time idling under 1200 RPM
Another indicator is if the spark plugs have to be replaced often.
And another is the amount of emissions out of the exhaust.
Although the induction system Ie:carburetor plays a big part, a better signal/vacume is always a plus.+++
On the Break-in issue, we recommended somewhere between 300-500 where new bearings are used and 200-300 where they are reused. New Mazda bearings have a film that either has to be removed prior to using or allow it to come off gradually while breaking in.
Now our Goopy Apex Seals and Goopy Corner seals the break-in is not as an issue as with the rotor or stationary bearings.
We have had Drag racing customers with absolutely no break-in time in Nitrous cars with no issues but to them high RPM's is everything so the idling, MPG spark plug replacing becomes a non-issue.
We appreciate all your questions and coments.
Goopy Performance.
God BLess
Hello Guys
Sorry that I have been so quiet but I am on the road much of the time and well you know the PC is time consuming.
I will respond to a few of comments.
Sterling's engine will be built using oversize 12A Goopy Apex Seals & Solid corner seals . Our intention is to have .001 of clearance on all wear parts on rotor. We manufacture both a stock size 12A seal which measures .115 and a oversize seal @ .118. This is due to the fact that 9 out of 10 used 12A rotors are out of tolerance in the area of the apex seal slot.
They are shaped like a V from all the years of use where the apex seal slopped back and fourth thus leaving outrageous clearances when reusing them. Our seals also have a proprietary coating on all surfaces that lower the (COF) coefficient of friction.
Our main objective with these tight clearances are high compression #s.
We @ Goopy Performance have built a 12A engines with all used parts except the wear parts and have obtained
#135 of compression.
Good sealing characteristics are key ingredients to high compression #s that will eventually reflect a good Vacuum or how Sterling puts it "Signal"
Tight clearances also help to isolate the Apex Seal SPRINGS from the actual flame in the combustion chamber.
This is a big issue with turbo motors with not only the over all radiant heat from the engine affecting the spring but the flame front distorts them even more to them eventually relaxing and loosing their deflection.
Over the years i have observed many rebuilds using both new and used components and its evident what engine is built right and which one is compromised.
One indicator is to see where the car idles at, fuel consumtion MPG etc
Ive seen some rebuilds where they have a hard time idling under 1200 RPM
Another indicator is if the spark plugs have to be replaced often.
And another is the amount of emissions out of the exhaust.
Although the induction system Ie:carburetor plays a big part, a better signal/vacume is always a plus.+++
On the Break-in issue, we recommended somewhere between 300-500 where new bearings are used and 200-300 where they are reused. New Mazda bearings have a film that either has to be removed prior to using or allow it to come off gradually while breaking in.
Now our Goopy Apex Seals and Goopy Corner seals the break-in is not as an issue as with the rotor or stationary bearings.
We have had Drag racing customers with absolutely no break-in time in Nitrous cars with no issues but to them high RPM's is everything so the idling, MPG spark plug replacing becomes a non-issue.
We appreciate all your questions and coments.
Goopy Performance.
God BLess
