Slammin_FC

So, I got this non-running N/A FC. Crank, no start. PO said it had no spark. I managed to get spark on both the leading and trailing plugs. Have fuel supply to the engine Plugs were fuel fouled, which probably was the whole reason the thing didn't run to begin with. PO tore into the thing chasing this no start issue.

Everything appears to be hooked up proper. I have fuel....however it appears to be aged. Being my first rotary, wondering how sensitive these are to oil gas? My main hobby is old BMWs...and old fuel hasn't stopped one of those yet.

I've tried the method to clear out the engine by removing the plugs, cranking, then putting ATF in the chamber.....still no dice.

Thinking a compression test may be the next thing I do....but hey, for $500 I can still get out from under this adventure unscathed.

satch

iTrader: (1)

Compression test is rather easy and should be done.

Slammin_FC

Update:

Have a coworker who is familiar with Rotaries. Talking to him he asked how the ignition was routed. I told him the Leading coils were going to the "L" and the Trailing to the "T". It's the way it was routed when I got the car.

WRONG.

So now I have to sit thought another day of work until I can get home and switch it all around.

FührerTüner

iTrader: (5)

To be a little more precise, L1 and T1 are on the most forward rotor housing, while L2 and T2 are on the rear housing.

misterstyx69

iTrader: (142)

..What do you mean Wrong???
it is CORRECT.
Leading Coil wires (Coil at front of car nearest the Dr side headlight) goes to LOWER PLUGS...Trailing goes to TOP PLUGS.

NOW..NOTE: the Leading and trailing coil is marked to note the plug wires..(LI,L2..T1,T2)
The Leading plug wires Can be mixed up as they Fore at the SAME time,so it doesn't matter if you screw up where you put them.
BUT..the Trailinhg wires need to be Specific...just Remember the Trailing plug wire coming off the coil closest to the Front goes to the FRONT TOP PLUG..you should be able to figure out where the other plug wire goes...lol!

Slammin_FC

Whelp.....this has been a learning experience. I looked into it and yes, I was wrong above. Christ I feel dumb now.

Anywho, still have fuel and spark. Leads are all in the proper positions, etc. Still no start. I did the complex bleeding procedure to no avail. Compression...granted it's on a cold engine....came out 1: 90psi. I tried a few times and consistently got the same reading. 2: 115psi. Same story, tried a few times and go the same reading.

I'm lead to believe that 115 is good, and 90 is on the bottom end of the scale. Although I do admit one rotor may have gotten more ATF in it that the other. I didn't have a friend here to crank while I checked the individual compression of each side of the rotors. Will tomorrow. It sounds really good with the plugs out, nice even chuu chuu chuu chuu chuu as it turns over.

FührerTüner

iTrader: (5)

Thats only 5 chuu's. There should be 6.

misterstyx69

iTrader: (142)

what CHU talkin about Willis?..lol...

satch

iTrader: (1)

Try some starting fluid.

Slammin_FC

Hehehe!

So I've got a friend coming over tonight to crank it while I check the compression again. Also going to hook in the timing light because I think the PO was screwing around with the CPS. There's sharpie marks on the housing.

All this time too I keep thinking I'm just flooding it again.

KansasCityREPU

iTrader: (9)

Push it down a hill and pop the clutch.

Slammin_FC

Alrighty....hereeeeee we go....

I live in a development, so no hills here. I'm moreso concerned that I'll get it into the street and it won't start, then I'll have to get it back into the driveway.

Dad came over and gave me a hand checking somethings out. He's a bit familiar with these, but he had two Cosmos when I was a kid. Consecutive serial #s too....I wish he hadn't sold them.

Anyhow....This thing has great compression after properly de-flooding it. Nice bumps around 80psi on each rotor. Overall #s 115-120psi. Spark is present and strong. Timing I'm still concerned about. My timing light isn't working anymore, so have to get another one. Fuel is being supplied...but I think I'll drain the tank (1/4 full) and start with some fresh 93 octane.

I'm going to end up just hooking it to a truck and pulling it...then popping the clutch.

Evil Aviator

I would recommend 87 octane that has as little ethanol as possible. This will typically start the easiest, plus it is also typically the fuel that will work the best in that engine anyway.

I don't think that will make any difference unless there is an electrical problem that is causing slow starter cranking.

lol, excellent!

Slammin_FC

87, really? I never would have guessed.

Starter seems to be turning as it should. Of course my reference is piston engines....

There isn't any sensor that would cause the thing to not want to hit if it's not plugged up? Everything appears to be there and be properly hooked in.....but what do I know...

Evil Aviator

Yes, but I am generalizing because the octane rating is usually the only reference given to consumers, even though it is not always the best way to evaluate fuel. The octane rating is an anti-knock rating, in which the higher the number the more "deadened" the fuel is with respect to this particular aspect. While the octane (anti-knock) rating is not exactly related to the ease of starting a cold engine, it should make sense that a "deadened" fuel is not so likely to ignite in a cold engine that is having trouble starting.

For starting a cold engine, the actual primary factor is Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP). The higher the RVP the easier the engine will start cold, but also the easier the fuel system will experience vapor lock in hot conditions. From September-June pump gas RVP is usually about 11.5-15, and from June-September the RVP is usually about 7-9. High-octane racing fuel usually as an RVP around 5-7, which makes it rather difficult to start a cold engine.

If your local gas stations publish the RVP, try to get the highest RVP if you are having problems with cold starting. If you are stuck with just the octane rating, then 87 is more likely to work better for starting an engine. Since 87 is the lowest octane recommended for your car (assuming the R+M/2 method used in the USA), it is not advisable to use any fuel with a lower rating.

It is important to ensure that the battery is well-charged. The engine usually cranks around 250rpm.

Yes, check the plug and wires that go into the air flow meter.

In fact, if the spark and fuel look good, then it would be a good idea to check the air flow meter, throttle body, and entire air path. I remember that one forum member had a problem when a rat built its nest in the air filter box.

Slammin_FC

Had a friend come over and borrowed a timing light. Got the timing spot on now.

Intake tract is clear.

Last night we drained all the fuel out and replaced it with new. Having a second person to help with this thing is so nice. We were running the fuel pump to get the last of the old fuel out of the lines when he noted that fuel didn't shoot out of the line with any kind of urgency. Just kind of lazily flowed out. There is a spare, used fuel pump in the back of the car...tested it, but it's dead. So I'm just going to order a new pump.

In the mean time I'm going to pull the injectors and make sure they are all clean as well. Also get the cooling system all plumbed back up and the belts sorted. AC compressor and the Air Pump are removed. Also I need to get the interior back together. HVAC blower assembly is out and many of the plastic panels are removed, as well as the passive seatbelts. Wonder if it'd be easier to just install some S4 belts than try to put the passive stuff back together....it's missing the rails along the A pillar from what I can tell.

Of course this it like the 5th time I've gotten super stoked thinking, "This is it! It's going to start!"....and I reallllly don't want to drop loads into it until it does start....but such is cars.

CynicalGambit

I would venture a guess that it may be the fuel pump as you said it doesn't have pressure. Unfortunately that's all the advice I can give as you have done everything I would have. Best of luck friend keep us updated.

FührerTüner

iTrader: (5)

Check your fuel filter as well. Dont get owned by a simple maintenance part.

Slammin_FC

Oh yeah, checked that. Removed it to verify fuel flow before the filter....and it was just a lazy trickle. Filter appears new as well....but it is some China filter so I'll replace it for the sake of due diligence.

Haven't messed with it much recently. Trying to decide on a fuel pump, and I've been dicking with my BMW project(s).

Here are some pics of the car to hold you over.

misterstyx69

iTrader: (142)

You may want to research putting a pump on that car.If you overwhelm the stock fuel regulator the car will run just as bad or even worse.Meaning you can't(or shouldn't) toss a high output pump on the stock system.
Source out a stock N/A pump and replace the fuel sock or even just pull the old pump and put a new sock on it.
It it was supplying fuel to the engine before and still is,then I would be thinking "cheaply" and just buy a Sock.

Slammin_FC

So, now that I'm "finished" with the v12 e34 touring project.....time to focus on this thing.

I put a new FP in it, de-flooded it (just as a matter of course, made sure it wasn't flooded), and it seems I'm not getting fuel into the chamber. I have a power probe, so I'll get a friend to power up the primary injectors from the ECU and I'll listen to see if they click. Either way, I guess I'll be tearing off the upper intake to check them out.

Then I had the thought to just get a mani and convert the thing to a Weber DCOE. The harness in this thing has some obvious places where it was spliced....heatshrink and bulges in it. I'm not even sure half the stuff was hooked up properly. Someone has been playing in there. Figure it'd be neat to pop a side draft on there and strip off all the "extras" to make it look like there's not enough there for it to run.

There's another late FC in town here....no tags....red....I may try driving by and finding out what's up with it.

satch

iTrader: (1)

The ECU pulses a ground signal to the injectors and not a voltage signal.

Slammin_FC

Yes.

So, I read up on some things, mostly posted by you, Satch, and here's my findings.

I made my way to the injectors. Someone has been in here, improperly. There were no gaskets....everything was glued together with Yamabond or something. Injectors were loose in the manifold/housings....seems the o-rings were probably reused. The center bolt on the upper mani wasn't even all the way in.

As far as the wiring goes....key on in position 2, I have 12v on the black/xx wire and 8v on the green/xx wires. With the injectors hooked up, I was able to probe the green wires thru the backs of the connectors and ground them out (with the power probe) to make the injectors click.....which they do. They don't look terribly dirty, but they're not like-new clean. Both injectors ohm out at 13.8.

I have two ECUs, and I'd tried switching them out before. I can't imagine that both are not grounding the injectors....

While it's apart I guess I'll replace hoses and all the little vacuum lines that are no longer rubber.

Still on the fence about just ditching the EFI for a carb.....

satch

iTrader: (1)

The primary injectors are used to start and idle the car (not secondaries). An LED bulb will flash w/key to start showing the injectors being triggered by the ECU. One wire from the LED to the injector pin at the ECU and the other to a pin which has voltage w/key to start (pin 1B Black/White wire).

Slammin_FC

Tested with a noid light, subbed in place of the primaries. They are getting (ground) signal to fire from the ECU.

I guess I'll go on and reseal the intakes, etc properly. Clean the injectors while they're out.

Anything else I should check out while the intake is off?