I posted this in the Lounge..
But I realized this is region specific.
So I apologize to the mods, for the repost.

Im not to sure about the upper NE region, but in
MD, VA, DC region, Ethanol is now being supplied to
stations in the region. Ethanol mixes is now being supplied
out of Fairfax VA and Baltimore Depots.

All the Majors, IE: Exxon/mobil, BP, Chevron, Shell
are now all pumping Ethanol gas.

The FYI: Citgo, and Generics ie: Safeway, Wawa, sheets, spirts
and other non branded are still using the old gas without ethanol.
So currently, IMO: I wouldn't mix the ethanol and old gas together.
In my underground tanks, we require a 4/1 mix of New/Old gas to
have "good" gas. So I assume the same ratio should be the same
in our vehicles.
According to the Oil Co's.. The mix in cars isn't an issue. and that
consumers putting different gas "should be" no issue.
But they require the gas retailers at at 4/1 ratio.
Doesn't sound right does it??

So if your in a region where Ethanol is being rolled out.
I would advise to go to one station and fill up when near empty
to avoid any possible problem with your car/gas.
So if you got Half tank of Exxon gas.. Don't go to say, wawa, safeway
(generic) to top off your tank.

Last thing you need is to go WOT and BOOOOOM or worse..

Goodday.

 

testing...

 

Thanks for the inside scoop Sean.

 

Why are they doing the whole mixed gas thing? Is it so gas can be cheaper? because it's definitly not any cheaper than the regular gas.....I don't really see why it's only around here either....kinda shitty if you ask me.

Also,

I heard ethanol gas can cause problems with older cars that have rubber parts in the fuel system.....do we have rubber parts in our fuel system and if so will this cause a problem? Also, is this ethanol mixed gas going to affect performance, should i consider getting my car re-tuned to use ethanol mixed gas or sense it's the same octane it won't make a difference?

 

More ethanole in the gas = less CO2, whitch is better for the environment, plus it will prolong the time that we have gasoline on the planet since it is not a renewable resource

 

It is my understanding that ethanol increases octane but decreases total fluid energy. That doesn't mean that the octane rating on the pump will necessarily be off but it could, but it wouild be higher rather than lower. As for the energy content, the new fuel should be lower than the older mixture, all else being equal. At least by my logic, if someone knows better correct me.

 

What with this mixed gas bullshit and $4 per gallon around the corner, I will probably just start running c16. I found it locally for $6.50 a gallon, and barely ever drive the FD now anyway (company car has a free gas card).

 

Let me help explain.

Federal law mandated that Gasoline need to burn cleaner and etc to help
the reduce emissions and help green house gas's and etc. So the gasoline
we all used was mixed with 10% oxygen additive. So the EPA and OIL co's
used a substance called MTDE. Well it turns out after 10 year study or so
that this MTDE was leaching into ground water and contaminating it.

So the Federal government mandated that Everyone switch this addictive
MDTE to Ethanol. IT was phazed in through out the country starting
in the West coast. (thats one reason California is always the highest
in the country and always 30 cent higher than national averages).

So now its our regions turn, and My station first Ethanol gas delivery came
in the beginning of the week. Many of you might of heard of gas stations
running out of gas or low supply. Its because everyone had to work their
inventory down, so they can meet this 4 to 1 ratio of New gas with Old gas.
So the gas can still be " good ".

All the Majors like previous noted has already started distributing
ethanol gas in the region. BUT Citgo's and other Generic No brands
don't get their Ethanol until May 1st.

Im not saying, if you mix the old and new gas you will have problems.
BUT you never know. Why have the hassle if you can avoid it.

Oh yea, Ethanol cost more to produce and refine and is like 20% less
effective.. So the new gas you will find like 15-20% less mileage.
Isn't it wonderful?

So in short.. Stick with one station ifyou can and work your tank down
to at least a 1/4 before filling up, to avoid any hassles, and after May1,
most if not all stations should have ethanol fuel.. even the generic
no names.

Oh and antic cars will not be able to run on ethanol fuels.
And some vintage cars may have issues with ethanol messing up the rubber
in the fuel system like some have said.

But modern cars like 80's or newer, should be ok..

 

Good info, thanks again for the heads up

Rich

 

haha GREAT, so now my 7 mpg is going to be more like 5.....wonderful, good thing i just invested in a civic daily driver!

 

That's why all you turbo guys need to go N/A.... 87 octane here and LOVING IT!!!

Dan

 

Negative on the generics...

My Wawa in Woodbridge is putting out Ethanol.

Got some last week. The truck didn't seem to notice. Didn't ping as much though.

 

Well i'm working on gettina geo storm for a DD.. i'm already ridding my mountain bike to school

 

Anyone notice their A/F ratio's change after running with the ethanol enhanced gas? I justed lost an apex seal on my front rotor and I'm suspecting the ethanol gas since I had filled up earlier that day.

http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/fue...e/changes.html

 

As long as i can recall we had ethanol in NYC. All pumps have 10% ethanol.

Jason NYC

 

I just noticed that my exhaust isn't spitting carbon out anymore. Could that be due to me filling up the FD with the ethanol mix?

 

A/f ratio's should go richer according to that. Mine have gone leaner, but I think the problem is elsewhere.

Boaters should also be aware that ethanol mixed with gasoline causes gasoline to absorb water in fuel tanks and will cause your engine to run like absoulte *** (went out memorial day weekend). After I ran one tank through the motor, I filled it back up and it ran fine... but who the hell knows next time. Regular fuel will not mix with water.

 

Now about these rubber parts that are in our fuel system.. cant we just switch over to SS stuff?

 

Sure, my vert takes 87 octane. It also can't make it up hills on the highway unless I downshift. seriously. stock n/a's rotaries are slow as dogshit compared to a boosted one .

 

hey Hey i resent that. I love my N/a. But i never been inside a t2 or a FD so i dont know what boost feels like

Jason NYC

 

With 10% ethanol blend, running in closed loop at stoich (AFR programmed to 14.7), would display still 1.00 Lambda and 14.7 AFR, because the LM-1 does not magically know what fuel you are using. If you programmed it to 14.1 AFR fuel, it would show 1.00 Lambda and 14.1 AFR.

Widebands (and 5-gas analyzers) do NOT measure some magical AFR. They measure Lamda. There is a second way to calculate Lambda aside from the familiar actual_AFR/stoich_AFR. It's

Lambda = %O2_of_air / (%O2_of_air - %O2_of_exhaust)

This is how a wideband measures Lambda. The term %O2_of_exhaust can go negative if the gas is rich. In that case it means the amount of additional O2 needed to get the gas to stoich.

If you run open loop though and tuned the engine to for example 12.5 AFR (gasoline) and then switched to the ethanol blend, you would run leaner (both in Lambda and AFR) because you need higher fuel flow to compensate for the lower stoich value. If you programmed the LM-1 to 14.1 AFR as stoich, you would then see the correct 12.5 AFR value, but then 12.5 AFR is too lean for the fuel used.

To give an extreme example:
Nitromethane has a stoich value of 1.7. This means for every pound of air entering the engine you need 0.59 pounds for fuel to get to stoich. For gasoline at stoich you need 0.068 pounds of fuel per pound of air. Both values are at Lambda 1.0. If your engine runs max power at 15% rich (Lambda 0.85 or gas AFR 12.5), you could leave the LM-1 at 14.7 gasoline setting and tune to 12.5, irrespective of fuel. That's fine for tuning if you are used to AFR. If, on the other hand, you want to calculate a VE table for the engine, using measured AFR, MAP, displacement, inj. duty cycle and IAT, THEN you need to know the real air-fuel-ratio and stoichiometric value."

 

If ethanol (stoich AFR of 9) is mixed with gasoline (stoich AFR of 14.7) the resulting gas has a lower stoich AFR than 'pure' gasoline. As the fuel injection is tuned to mix a certain amount of fuel for a given amount of air, the resulting mixture would be leaner when using a fuel with lower stoich AFR.

This can be calculated:

sAFR = (%ofAdditive * sAFRadditive + (90-%ofAdditive) * sAFRgas) /100

where:
sAFR is resulting stoich AFR
%ofAdditive is amount in % of mass of additive (ethanol) mixed in
sAFRadditive is stoich AFR of additive (9 for ethanol)
sAFRgas is stoich AFR of base gasoline (14.7)

For a 10% mixture of ethanol to gasoline by mass the resulting stoich AFR is 14.13

So, for an engine that's tuned to certain AFR at a certain load and RPM on straight gas, the resulting (gasoline equivalent) AFR when running the mixture can be calculated as:

new AFR = tuned gas AFR * (gasoline stoich ratio) / blend stoich ratio

An engine tuned to 12.5 gas AFR will run at the equivalent of 13 gas AFR with a 10% ethanol blend. This is what these people were seeing.

Of course, when running in closed loop, the engine will run at 14.13 AFR instead of 14.7. O2 sensors (incl. widebands) don’t measure AFR, but Lambda. Lambda is defined as actual AFR/stoich AFR. It's a ratio. In closed loop part throttle the engine is just running at Lambda 1.0, regardless of fuel. The same would be true for other Lambda values when running closed loop at WOT using a wideband. The engine would run at the tuned Lambda and everything would be fine. Open loop systems would need to be retuned for alcohol blends though.

The bad news is that WOT fueling in the cars I have knowledge of is a form of open loop so you will be fine driving around day to day but WOT fueling will be effected, this becomes particularly inportant in Forced Induction applications.

 

You sir, are my hero. Thank you for the education. This makes alot of sense.

 

http://www.nmma.org/lib/docs/nmma/gr..._and_20%25.pdf

More light reading on the effects of e10.