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Naturally Aspirated Performance ForumDiscussion of naturally-aspirated rotary performance. No Power Adders, only pure rotary power!
From the "12A" to the "RENESIS" and beyond.
Not sure how long these have been around but has anyone used one of these Holley throttle bodies? https://www.holley.com/products/fuel.../parts/112-588
Throttle plates are 1.75" or 44.45mm each. It uses a 4150 flange style which I'm not sure what flange that is but I was thinking if it is the same flange as is on the RB Holley intake manifold. Holley Intake Manifold for 84-92 13B 6-Port Engine - Racing Beat or Holley Intake Manifold for 87-91 TURBO II - Racing Beat It makes the intake portion of replacing the stock intakes a bolt on affair. With all the fab work that it seems is involved with itb's and sourcing TB's from streetbikes and snowmobiles this on the surface seems simpler. Cost seems to total about $661 plus shipping for the two pieces. I know I didn't mention an ecu. It is a given that this is on a car running a standalone. Possibly Adaptronic? The other question is if the stock 6 port intake tops out at 200whp how much does the RB holley intake support. This also would hinge on all four throttle plates opening simultaneously.
I know from other threads he has posted in that PeeJay is or was running a modified 4bbl carb as a throttle body with success so this seems feasible.
Disclaimer: ATM this is mostly for conversation very early planning as I haven't went standalone yet but do plan to at some point. Once I learn to tune( no local tuners/ want to learn to tune) and feel I'm hitting the limits of the stock manifolds would this setup be a viable option. Thanks.
interesting, you're right, with the TPS and idle motor on it, it does make life simple. i'd keep the stock primary fuel rail, and just stick some larger injectors in it, and then you're really close to being done
looks like a really nice piece. my only gripe would be the lack of provisions for injectors, like the Autonomics piece has. if you happen to have an old engine, it means more work. that's not an absolute deal-breaker for me though. if i had an interest or need for a Holley-based system for myself, i would consider buying it.
i have no idea how much power this setup would make on a 6 port, but decades ago i helped a friend of mine setup his FC with a siamese-ported engine and a Holley 550 (i think) and the car was an absolute animal! i don't think regular guys like us had easy access to dynos at the time, or really even knew or cared, so no empirical data to give. however, that thing felt like it had torque (for a 13B) with a capital T, and would walk a stock-ish T2. the story may or may not mean anything, but it felt right to tell it here anyway.
interesting, you're right, with the TPS and idle motor on it, it does make life simple. i'd keep the stock primary fuel rail, and just stick some larger injectors in it, and then you're really close to being done
I had wondered whether to run large primaries or modify the manifold to use the secondary rail.
Originally Posted by diabolical1
i have no idea how much power this setup would make on a 6 port, but decades ago i helped a friend of mine setup his FC with a siamese-ported engine and a Holley 550 (i think) and the car was an absolute animal! i don't think regular guys like us had easy access to dynos at the time, or really even knew or cared, so no empirical data to give. however, that thing felt like it had torque (for a 13B) with a capital T, and would walk a stock-ish T2. the story may or may not mean anything, but it felt right to tell it here anyway.
That makes it sound promising. While searching Autonomics I stumbled across the Jay-tech/Pro-Jay and JW manifolds that sit taller with more clearance for a turbo. Though I have no immediate plans for a turbo it would be nice to retain that option in the future. Look what I found at Jegs digging around. JW Performance - JEGS High Performance - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS
I like the looks of the Jay-Tech as well if I could pick a used one up cheap sometime.
1360cfm HIGH BOOST / 4 Barrel / 4 Injector Throttle Body
There are other options out there. Some with more injectors. Lots of people make these now.
4150 flange is a "standard" holley 4 barrel flange. It was a big deal because you can bolt the throttle body to a standard carb intake. "Bolt on EFI" for old school V8 cars.
1360cfm HIGH BOOST / 4 Barrel / 4 Injector Throttle Body
There are other options out there. Some with more injectors. Lots of people make these now.
4150 flange is a "standard" holley 4 barrel flange. It was a big deal because you can bolt the throttle body to a standard carb intake. "Bolt on EFI" for old school V8 cars.
I had stumbled upon that yesterday after I started this thread when looking at the Pro-Jay manifolds. Seems like there are multiple options with this type of setup. That "bolt on EFI" is what got me digging around. I knew about the RB Holley manifold( I actually knew about the Jay-Tech I had just forgot about it till yesterday) and thought Holley or somebody made a throttle body that would bolt right where a carb used to be. Seems The ITB stuff is all from Aus. or custom whereas these 4bbl TB seem easy to source here in the states. Plus I was looking for something relatively cheap which the Holley fits into nicely.
Seems The ITB stuff is all from Aus. or custom whereas these 4bbl TB seem easy to source here in the states. Plus I was looking for something relatively cheap which the Holley fits into nicely.
i found myself thinking the same thing. why there weren't more of these Holley-based, or rather 4-barrel-based, options out there. don't feel too bad because i'm not really sure how old this stuff is.
my brother and i agreed to make his car fuel injected a few years ago. he never drove it and i needed/wanted something to work on, so it worked for both of us. anyway, as you noted, almost all the ITB stuff was from Australia and pretty much Weber-based, but he already had a Holley on his car. i figured with all the standalones and domestic hot rodders, there had to be something for a Holley.
at that point in time, my searching only turned up the Pro-Jay (which was WAY out of our budget) and Autonomics. that was pretty much it. we got the Autonomics for his car and it seems like a pretty nice piece, but it's definitely not perfect. needless to say, there are quite a few options today.
Find one where the injectors mount in the throttle body. Best of all worlds.
Lots of people make them BUT they are generally sold as part of a ECU setup. FAST XFI and MSD Atomic EFI are the ones I think of the most, Accel had one too (Thruster? Something like that)
4150/4160 is the "normal" squarebore Holley setup. Alternatives are spreadbore (Quadrajet, Carter AFB/Edelbrock) and Holley Dominator (Hee-YUUGE). Just for your edification.
Pro jay (formerly know as jay-tech) has been making 4bbl 4150 style TB with injectors holes since mid 90s, and E&J autoworks since late 90s. Last I heard (about 3 years ago) Autonics was not making/selling their 4 injector 4bbl TB anymore.
I've had in my hands all three TB, and have personally used the Autonics and the Pro-Jay, and I can tell you that the quality of the autonics is not even close to the projay and E&J tbs.
Like most of us, the only thing that hold me back for so long was the price of the projay/E&J TB. When I had the funds, I opted for the autonics, and ended up selling it when I went turbo.
Projay and E&J have 4 injector TBs, and E&J tb can be converted to a progressive tb. Hope this info helps others. I would've saved some money, had I know of the quality of these TBs.
Seems from the options presented that this 4 barrel TB setup isn't that uncommon just not talked much about, as it seems everybody is all about ITB's. In this article on the Borla TB site that was linked earlier http://www.borlainduction.com/media/carb_vs_fi.pdf the Holley carb made more peak HP than the Dellorto. The Dell had a better curve though. I wonder if one can expect similar results with the Holley style TB? Anyway I think this is the route I want to go eventually( with a Pro-jay or JW manifold) as it looks easier to do a turbo setup on if I so choose at some point down the road.
I haven't used said set up, but I keep advocating.
With ID 2,000cc injectors idling a rotary fine you can get ~400hp using just the stock primary injector location using the cheaper injector-less 4150 TBs.
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What caught my eye the other day is the FAST EZ-EFI 4150 throttle body injection kit really caught on and now there are tons of 4150 TB that incorporate fuel rails, tps, intake temp, etc. Most are pretty low profile too to help fit under our hoods with a boost hat on them.
The FAST EZ-EFI 2.0 it uses the 4150 (Holley) flange and it has a low profile despite housing TPS, Intake temp, and 8x injectors good for 700+hp on a rotary and can be used with their more advanced ECU.
It would be interesting to bolt one onto a semi p-port REW manifold with a big turbo and see how it does.
If you have priced out injectors/rails alone for 700hp rotary you are almost getting EFI system and TB for free with this.
Seems from the options presented that this 4 barrel TB setup isn't that uncommon just not talked much about, as it seems everybody is all about ITB's. In this article on the Borla TB site that was linked earlier http://www.borlainduction.com/media/carb_vs_fi.pdf the Holley carb made more peak HP than the Dellorto. The Dell had a better curve though. I wonder if one can expect similar results with the Holley style TB? Anyway I think this is the route I want to go eventually( with a Pro-jay or JW manifold) as it looks easier to do a turbo setup on if I so choose at some point down the road.
Admittedly I only scanned the article but I didn't see where they actually stated the SIZE of the carburetors. So if the carbs were on the small side, it will make the ITBs seem like they are "worth" more power.
Quite a few of the drag rotaries run the holley style throttle bodies.
I haven't used said set up, but I keep advocating.
With ID 2,000cc injectors idling a rotary fine you can get ~400hp using just the stock primary injector location using the cheaper injector-less 4150 TBs.
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What caught my eye the other day is the FAST EZ-EFI 4150 throttle body injection kit really caught on and now there are tons of 4150 TB that incorporate fuel rails, tps, intake temp, etc. Most are pretty low profile too to help fit under our hoods with a boost hat on them.
The FAST EZ-EFI 2.0 it uses the 4150 (Holley) flange and it has a low profile despite housing TPS, Intake temp, and 8x injectors good for 700+hp on a rotary and can be used with their more advanced ECU.
It's a shame that they don't sell that thing separately. That's the throttle body that I keep thinking of - it showers the injectors into the airstream just like a carburetor, so you get the air density benefits of a carburetor with the tunability of EFI.
FAST's controllers have their place but I don't think it's the best solution for a rotary. It does some things very well but other things not so well.
Admittedly I only scanned the article but I didn't see where they actually stated the SIZE of the carburetors. So if the carbs were on the small side, it will make the ITBs seem like they are "worth" more power.
Quite a few of the drag rotaries run the holley style throttle bodies.
I looked back through it. The ITB's were 50mm. They never told the size of the carburetors. I'm guessing 600cfm for the Holley carb since that's what they sell in their kit. Hopefully they used the same size ITB's as the Dellorto carb to keep everything close to the same other than the switch to fuel injection.
Yeah I have since discovered by searching some of the stuff mentioned in this thread that these various 4150 style throttle bodies are popular with the drag guys.
It's a shame that they don't sell that thing separately.
They do sell the EZ_EFI 2.0 throttle body/injector set separately now for $1,300 and it has a lead to plug right into their more advanced XFI 2.0 stand alone.
That's the throttle body that I keep thinking of - it showers the injectors into the airstream just like a carburetor, so you get the air density benefits of a carburetor with the tunability of EFI.
The one with the shower injectors is the Holley Avenger 4 barrel TBI and like you say I didn't see it available outside the EFI kit.
So the Holley is a mech secondary correct? I'm thinking calibration strategy might be a bit tricky. Alpha-n would probably make the most sense and would make for a super simple install. I wouldn't expect to get a clean map signal off the runners, especially off a 6 port engine, secondary runner is on ports with way later closing time than the primaries. Carb hat and MAF sensor might save a lot of time in the long run. Any system changes on an Alpha-n calibration usually requires a re-tune.
So the Holley is a mech secondary correct? I'm thinking calibration strategy might be a bit tricky.
Holley in that picture sure looks set up for progressive throttle (primaries open 1st followed by 2ndaries). I would think this will make it easier to tune as the vacuum signal won't degrade with throttle input quite as fast.
Alpha-n would probably make the most sense and would make for a super simple install. I wouldn't expect to get a clean map signal off the runners, especially off a 6 port engine, secondary runner is on ports with way later closing time than the primaries. Carb hat and MAF sensor might save a lot of time in the long run. Any system changes on an Alpha-n calibration usually requires a re-tune.
Tuning off TPS and RPM is kind of a pain in the *** especially if it bothers you to have a wonky fuel wasting map. It makes me want to put a carb on the car- its that bad.
You will get a good enough vacuum signal off of the primary runner to run MAP based fueling with possibility of zero throttle map and the full throttle map (that will closely look like the map you would have come up with for TPS RPM of anything over ~ 10% TPS.)
I helped out tuning an S2000 with ITB on a new Haltech and it is basically a waste of Haltech abilities. S2000 just ends up running like an NA rotary- wants to be rich everywhere and the "map" is basically the same for all load ranges over idle per given RPM.
Factors like air intake temp and coolant temp have more effect on steady state tune than the fueling map when running it locked to set RPM on a load dyno- very frustrating to try to tune.
Its easy to tune once you give up on a getting a "real" tune on it and just give the engine what it wants to rev up clean and make best power on dyno sweep power pulls.
So the Holley is a mech secondary correct? I'm thinking calibration strategy might be a bit tricky.
Holley in that picture sure looks set up for progressive throttle (primaries open 1st followed by 2ndaries). I would think this will make it easier to tune as the vacuum signal won't degrade with throttle input quite as fast.
There are no real tuning issues with non progressive TB (on a stock or street ported engine, no idea on a heavily ported engine), although I do question if it really affects MPG consumption.
So the Holley is a mech secondary correct? I'm thinking calibration strategy might be a bit tricky.
Holley in that picture sure looks set up for progressive throttle (primaries open 1st followed by 2ndaries). I would think this will make it easier to tune as the vacuum signal won't degrade with throttle input quite as fast.
Alpha-n would probably make the most sense and would make for a super simple install. I wouldn't expect to get a clean map signal off the runners, especially off a 6 port engine, secondary runner is on ports with way later closing time than the primaries. Carb hat and MAF sensor might save a lot of time in the long run. Any system changes on an Alpha-n calibration usually requires a re-tune.
Tuning off TPS and RPM is kind of a pain in the *** especially if it bothers you to have a wonky fuel wasting map. It makes me want to put a carb on the car- its that bad.
You will get a good enough vacuum signal off of the primary runner to run MAP based fueling with possibility of zero throttle map and the full throttle map (that will closely look like the map you would have come up with for TPS RPM of anything over ~ 10% TPS.)
I helped out tuning an S2000 with ITB on a new Haltech and it is basically a waste of Haltech abilities. S2000 just ends up running like an NA rotary- wants to be rich everywhere and the "map" is basically the same for all load ranges over idle per given RPM.
Factors like air intake temp and coolant temp have more effect on steady state tune than the fueling map when running it locked to set RPM on a load dyno- very frustrating to try to tune.
Its easy to tune once you give up on a getting a "real" tune on it and just give the engine what it wants to rev up clean and make best power on dyno sweep power pulls.
That's exactly what I found when I went Alpha N on my ITB's. It was pretty easy to tune to get it running well, but it does want to run rich and I am trying to lean out different points to see if I can gain more power. We did try to tune it originally using a standard MAP, but with the vacuum signal going all over the place (even after we linked all four ITB Runners to even out the pulses), we could never get a clean throttle transition out of the ITB's. And yes Air and water temps play a huge part in the tuning, so much so, I needed to find a place to insert the Intake Air Temp Sensor that didn't vary so much depending on car speed. The inlet temps were all over the place and effecting A?F ratios a fair bit. I also run wideband correction as well, but have it limited to 5% to try to smooth out the transitions. Maybe a better tuner could do a lot better than we could and someday I will see if we can relook at it. For now though, I run the car in ALPHA-N and belch a ton of flames. On track it actually still gets just over an hour on a full tank. Almost the same as it did when it was a stock 6 port and making about 40 hp less.
There are no real tuning issues with non progressive TB (on a stock or street ported engine, no idea on a heavily ported engine), although I do question if it really affects MPG consumption.
That is good to hear.
You have 4 little plates opening directly into the runners (constant flow/velocity) so you get that great ITB throttle response- makes sense to me.
I theorize running just the primary ports/runners/injectors should have a minor affect on fuel consumption as it would seem at low loads you could use less throttle pump enrichment value as intake velocity should be higher/fuel will stay in suspension better.
Not many people put ITBs on their car to drive like a granny so is it relevant? Perhaps not.
If you're on a bridge ported engine, running staged throttles will have a big effect on economy, to the negative, unless you have a half bridged engine and your primary throttles are on the two bridged ports.
06-01-15, 01:34 PM
