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Motec M4 CRiP (13B-REW)

Old 05-13-09, 12:31 PM
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Motec M4 CRiP (13B-REW)

The attached MoTeC Diagram T-15 indicates a criP setting of "20" for 13B-REW engines. Is this what all of the 13B-REW's are using?

I've worked myself into a paranoid tizzy because my non-adjustable timing light checked criP is far from this recommendation. Since the e-shaft, timing pully and CAS sensor orientations are mechanically fixed, it doesn't make sense to me. I'm curious how common is my deviation.

So what's everyone using for criP ? Specifically, I'd like to know how much your timing light-confirmed criP settings deviate from that recommended AND how did you validate the setting.
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Old 05-13-09, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Carlos Iglesias View Post
The attached MoTeC Diagram T-15 indicates a criP setting of "20" for 13B-REW engines. Is this what all of the 13B-REW's are using?

I've worked myself into a paranoid tizzy because my non-adjustable timing light checked criP is far from this recommendation. Since the e-shaft, timing pully and CAS sensor orientations are mechanically fixed, it doesn't make sense to me. I'm curious how common is my deviation.

So what's everyone using for criP ? Specifically, I'd like to know how much your timing light-confirmed criP settings deviate from that recommended AND how did you validate the setting.

26.8 criP works for me.
You can test it from ''crank index position''.
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Old 05-14-09, 06:19 AM
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crip seems to be the most fn confusing thing ive come across after talking to other users too,

I do believe you set it by cranking your engine over with the plugs out, but inserted in the lead ends, put your test light on leading number 1, then crank it over and adjust your crip settings untill it the crip number moves the test light enough to be the same exact crank number as the advance settings in your computer, sounds simple but it sounds dodge to me

Say your advance setting is to be 10 deg in your motec M2r, and when your cranking it you see a solid 4 deg on the nose of the crank, so going by the tutorial you would then have to type in the number 6 in the crip setting to be able to move the light to match the 10 deg setting you advance is to start with.
Get me drift or am i fuckn way off too

But how do you know your cas in is the correct spot to start with

Ps i also was checking my setup general screen and noticed my rfSn setting was number 4 and my SYSn setting was 4 as well, and in 24 tooth setup its saying it should be number 2 and 2 for both values, now why the **** would motec send me out a setup thats wrong when i told em what ignition setup i was using to start with dead set this **** is getting too hard, i can see why ***** go with microtec
ps should my tooth ratio be 55 as well, or is that a guess as well, damn i hate being a noob with this setup
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Old 05-14-09, 08:56 AM
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beefcake what ignition setup are U using?
If U are using the series 6 then the tooth ratio setup is out of use.

Start with criP=20 idle the engine and go to ignition->crank index position.
Your ''test advance'' at that point will be zero. Now ajust your timing light at 0
degrees and ajust the ''crank index'' so that the tdc mark on the front pulley fit the one on the front cover.

Hope this helps
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Old 05-14-09, 09:15 AM
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im using motec cdi, and ignition mode 140.
So its also a s4/5T setup using 24 tooth crank angle sensor(factory unit)
I have 4x mercury coils.

i wish i new how to take a screen dump or shot of my setup so i could cut and pates it for all too see
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Old 05-14-09, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by G.KAKKOS View Post
beefcake what ignition setup are U using?
If U are using the series 6 then the tooth ratio setup is out of use.

Start with criP=20 idle the engine and go to ignition->crank index position.
Your ''test advance'' at that point will be zero. Now ajust your timing light at 0
degrees and ajust the ''crank index'' so that the tdc mark on the front pulley fit the one on the front cover.

Hope this helps

exactly.

I think beefcake has a 2nd gen though, so I don't remember off hand what to use as a starter crip.
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Old 05-14-09, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by 2a+RoN View Post
exactly.

I think beefcake has a 2nd gen though, so I don't remember off hand what to use as a starter crip.
yeh sorry to spam this dudes thread but yeh mines dirty ole second gen, im getting it better day by day, and im like a kid in a candy store everytime i figure new things out, getting there but not as quick as im used too
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Old 05-18-09, 01:12 AM
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http://www.motec.com.au/filedownload...pdf?docid=1281
s4/5 start crip and ignition values
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Old 05-18-09, 12:24 PM
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Thanks for all of the replies gents!

For the FD / 13B-REW guys: I'm a little confused, though I'm not at home so I'm going from memory. Anyways, here what I don't understand:

On 13B-REW engines, the timing "pin" on the front cover and and associated pulley mark are at 20 degrees ATDC (or -20 degrees BTDC). There is no factory TDC indicator that I know of. Since the M4 EMP does not let you enter negative "Timing Advanced" values to get to -20 BTDC so as to line up the factory pin and pulley mark, how are you able to determining that your criP is set correctly?

Sure look forward to your reply because I can't seem to get my head around the MOTEC (and everyone elses) settings !
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Old 05-18-09, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Carlos Iglesias View Post
Thanks for all of the replies gents!

For the FD / 13B-REW guys: I'm a little confused, though I'm not at home so I'm going from memory. Anyways, here what I don't understand:

On 13B-REW engines, the timing "pin" on the front cover and and associated pulley mark are at 20 degrees ATDC (or -20 degrees BTDC). There is no factory TDC indicator that I know of. Since the M4 EMP does not let you enter negative "Timing Advanced" values to get to -20 BTDC so as to line up the factory pin and pulley mark, how are you able to determining that your criP is set correctly?

Sure look forward to your reply because I can't seem to get my head around the MOTEC (and everyone elses) settings !
it needs to be told how far TDC is away once it has seen the "home" single flash
it does that by counting 12 teeth,, then adding the crip value
ie ,, 12 x 30 = 360 + 20 ( crip ) = 380 degree...
380 degrees after a -20 flash ==360 === rotor 1 leading fire

in wastespark applications on rotary,,
the leading signals are paired for both rotors and this has no consequence except for dwell period at high revs

--but when the Ne ( multitooth ) and G ( single home ) coincide together and the ECU sees that as that the trailing echo must be T1,, and not T2
--- it then counts out the rotor two firing position being 180 crank more


in doing it that way,,
it has a whole 360 window in which to start dwell periods
and also injector phase angle shifts in time to give it the injection period,,and ignition timing that the tables tell it it needs

NB

s4/5 has a 1/2 speed CAS with double teeth ( but suffers from shaft float errors )
its a 24/2 event,, but in effect ,, when related to crank angles is a 12/1 like FD

-- what is different,, is the timing mark locations,, s4/5 at -5 ,, and FD at -20
so,, myself,, i see the the bug being in the s4/5 settings

-- of which,, its moot if you just use the timing light and adjust the crip so that everything lines up
( as any motor should start if 15 late still )

if you run out of crip adjust ( and on s4/5 ,, CAS base adjust )
then you can drop the crit count 1,, to 11 and that will allow 30 degrees more adjust on the crip

ie 12 crit,,20 crip ,, is 11 crit,, 50 crip
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Old 05-18-09, 10:22 PM
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ps,, if your timing light isnt showing near home with those settings,,
i suggest you have a polarity issue on one of the triggers,,
as this will make for a phase shift error when seen by the reluctor adapters switching the Vr to a TTL signal

-- similarly,, moving the settings for the signal conditioning and filters may also corrupt things

PS,, catches a few out sometimes,, is crossed signals on the light pickup
-- i use a "smudge" type non inductive pickup cheapo in some applications where the noise or the leads insulation prevents a clean inductive pickup
( only as a backup,, but rules out crossfire pickup )
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Old 06-01-09, 12:30 AM
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Wow, people are actually using Motecs still? Awesome. I was worried when I put mine back together there'd be nobody left using them to discuss or troubleshoot with. It's unfortunate that I may have to deal with some GQ helicopter pilot though
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Old 06-05-09, 11:55 AM
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WOW... now we're REALLY going Old School! ;-) Yeah, I forgot that you (and Trev?) had gone the M4 route back in the day. We'll I guess I'm only about a decade years behind you trail blazers. Anyways, what's the gameplan for dragging you back in to the Rotary Crackhouse?

As for MoTeC, you wouldn't believe some of the "Buck Rogers" **** they've got as their flagship line (Magnesium series ECUs). If I ever win a lottery, or pick-up a rich concubine, I may just lay down some serious cash for the HAL2000 capabilities. As the lower level, the Mx series is showing-up al over the place cheap these days, so that bottome-feeders like me can get in some of the old school goodness... so welcome to the sandy bottom, you old flounder! ;-)

Are you on Facebook by any chance? Pls PM me contact info.
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Old 07-06-09, 09:24 PM
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Trev never had one. They were pretty spendy back then, $4k+ with the bells and whistles.

I'm starting to have real doubts about getting the time to put mine back together in the next few years so I'm considering offering to trade it for a relatively tame R1 with lowish miles so I can at least do something rotary instead of looking at my car in the garage
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Old 07-10-09, 06:52 AM
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Yeah, I'm with you on the shortage of time issues. Been trying for two years to get mine back on the track since this last upgrade campaign. However, I've recently thrown in the towel and gone the "hired gun" route for the first time. Atleast with the high time-density wrenching/programming I'll cough up some cash to try and exhume the car out of the garage. But you already now how that goes: "The best laid plans of mice and men..."

Originally Posted by Kevin T. Wyum View Post
Trev never had one. They were pretty spendy back then, $4k+ with the bells and whistles.

I'm starting to have real doubts about getting the time to put mine back together in the next few years so I'm considering offering to trade it for a relatively tame R1 with lowish miles so I can at least do something rotary instead of looking at my car in the garage
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Old 07-10-09, 09:23 AM
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Ok, think I remember now. Use the "test advance" function in the crip screen (going off m800 software, so might be setup a lil differently in M4) and set this to lock the position of the trigger wheel so it is easily readable with a timing light. In this case, set it to the position where the FD timing wheel tooth is at the indicator on the front cover, forget exactly what timing that is. Then adjust the CRIP to ensure that the marks line up and viola!
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Old 07-10-09, 09:33 AM
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and thats pretty much how i nutted out my t2 engine setup, same same deal, ignore the timing value as you are setting the crip,
It freaked me out that i was adjusting a timing "value" so much but in the end it wasn't a timing value i was adjusting, its just getting the computer a reference to go from, if you get me jist,
And i know exactly what you meen now buy the fact they are all individual and different from engine to engine, as if i adjust my real time cas seting buy turnign the shaft, i would then have to reset my crip angle or

Anyway ive got me unit runnig sweet az, just getting roll cage work now, so ill update tune on dyno soon
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Old 07-12-09, 12:56 PM
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OK, checked my timing again last night (hadn't since I originally fired up the motor a couple years ago...). So with the CRIP set at 20, you can clearly see the mark. Mine ended up right at 24 and did not use the test advance.
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Old 04-08-10, 10:25 AM
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UPDATE: just set up an FD with an M4. Carlos is correct, the test advance cannot go negative, so had to add a new mark to the pulley to be able to setup CRIP.
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Old 04-09-10, 12:04 PM
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Aaron, would you care to elaborate on how you marked the pulley and what you set the Test Advance to. I "suspect" I'll soon know first hand, but it might helps other who may need the info down the road.

Of course, a picture is worth a thousand posts! ;-)
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Old 04-09-10, 07:20 PM
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dont have a pic but can try to grab one off glen's car tonight.

The stock mark is exactly at the leading edge on one of the tooths of the 12 tooth section of the wheel. Since it has 12 teeth, the next tooth over is exactly 30* (360/12=30). So using a sharp file I carefully widdled away a new mark at the next leading edge. Since the stock mark is 20* ATDC, another 30* puts it at 10* BTDC, so just set test advance to 10* and adjust your CRIP to match, viola!
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Old 04-09-10, 07:36 PM
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Beautifully simple... thanks Aaron!

Now that I've actually started to think about the car, I'm famished for any insights I can gleem.
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Old 04-11-10, 09:32 AM
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Just to help everyone running Motec on an FD, you should find that a CRIP of 5 is the number to go for.

Yes, the MOTEC values are wrong for FD's.

As above, mark up 10 degrees BTDC on the wheel and use 10 BTDC as the timing lock.

If you are lucky and have an M800 as i do, you can go negative on the timing lock, so put timing lock on -5 degrees (which gives 5 ATDC), put 15 degrees on the split table (to run 20 ATDC on trailing 1 and use the factory notch for setup.

If you use the factory 20 crip, you'll have a lovely glowing manifold and cook the engine in no time.

Further pointers from memory - you can put in very high voltage filters on both ref and sync, like 5V to avoid runt errors. The standard ref and sync sensors have a good strong plus and minus 9v or more waveform from the standard trigger wheel.

If you get the chance, put a timing light on an Apexi ecu and watch the timing jumping everywhere. In comparison the Motec stays steady.
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Old 10-01-10, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by maximtaylor View Post
Just to help everyone running Motec on an FD, you should find that a CRIP of 5 is the number to go for.

Yes, the MOTEC values are wrong for FD's.

As above, mark up 10 degrees BTDC on the wheel and use 10 BTDC as the timing lock.

If you are lucky and have an M800 as i do, you can go negative on the timing lock, so put timing lock on -5 degrees (which gives 5 ATDC), put 15 degrees on the split table (to run 20 ATDC on trailing 1 and use the factory notch for setup.

If you use the factory 20 crip, you'll have a lovely glowing manifold and cook the engine in no time.

Further pointers from memory - you can put in very high voltage filters on both ref and sync, like 5V to avoid runt errors. The standard ref and sync sensors have a good strong plus and minus 9v or more waveform from the standard trigger wheel.

If you get the chance, put a timing light on an Apexi ecu and watch the timing jumping everywhere. In comparison the Motec stays steady.
we had one we were tuning at 20 crip when we started just going off of the motec diagram and glowed the hell out of the manifold but didnt mess up the motor after 10 or so pulls, but after we realized the timing was off we found it to be dead on timing with a 7 crip. why would it would vary from setup to setup if they are 3rd gen triggers?
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Old 08-14-11, 09:33 PM
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So if I am reading this correct, TDC is not really TDC anymore when you install a MoTeC?
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