MoTeC Motec
04-02-02, 06:49 AM
#26
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Why not run a Microtech MTX12 which has adjustable split timing for trailing every 500rpm, so not only does it have the split but you can change it from the normal 15 degree to ...lets say 5 degree up top in the revs.
Advancing the trailing timing closer to the leading is actually worth more power up top in the rev range.
The Microtech MTX12 has 6 coil drivers and 6 injector drivers running fully sequential operation.
It has Air/Fuel ratio logging using a super fast 4 wire oxygen sensor and great data logging including 11 minutes of on board logging that can be programmed to only log if your over a certain boost or throttle position, revs etc etc then you can download to laptop.
They are excellent value for money, but just lack a little of the fine adjustability at low rpm with big injectors over a Motec or Haltech, but you can get them 95% perfect at this point and 100% everywhere else. Maybe this is worth considering, and also the price at about $750 US.
Just dont know where youd get one in the States as no-one knows anything about them over there.
Advancing the trailing timing closer to the leading is actually worth more power up top in the rev range.
The Microtech MTX12 has 6 coil drivers and 6 injector drivers running fully sequential operation.
It has Air/Fuel ratio logging using a super fast 4 wire oxygen sensor and great data logging including 11 minutes of on board logging that can be programmed to only log if your over a certain boost or throttle position, revs etc etc then you can download to laptop.
They are excellent value for money, but just lack a little of the fine adjustability at low rpm with big injectors over a Motec or Haltech, but you can get them 95% perfect at this point and 100% everywhere else. Maybe this is worth considering, and also the price at about $750 US.
Just dont know where youd get one in the States as no-one knows anything about them over there.
04-03-02, 12:06 AM
#27
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Do not wasste your time trying to fire the split, it is not essential. If you want max power then T&L together is proven way (based on scientific data).
Buy a decent system, Autronic does what motec charge double for !
SMC is $2000Aus adn hitman ran one on his 20B! A few n/a 20B pp sports sedans in Aus run Autronic as well.
If you want user support then Haltech is the way to go in the US.
If you want **** ECU then LINK, Microtech, etc is the way to go.
You get what you pay for, remember that
Also ask your self, what do professional race teams use?
The majority answer around the world is Bosch, Magnetti Marelli, Motec then Autronic in the mid price range systems. Then ask your self what major races or championships have been one in sports cars/touring cars or rally cars in the past 10 years with Microtech or Link or the like ?
No need to look, I will answer in for you. ZERO!!!!!
Michrotech and the likes are for hobby types and people who are challenged in the art of tunning/engine mapping...they are toys, toys that can go bad and cost you performance or when tunned to the edge can cost you a motor.
Take my advise, do not waste your time money or effort even considering pieces of **** like this.
Never liked Microtech in their current form.
Buy a decent system, Autronic does what motec charge double for !
SMC is $2000Aus adn hitman ran one on his 20B! A few n/a 20B pp sports sedans in Aus run Autronic as well.
If you want user support then Haltech is the way to go in the US.
If you want **** ECU then LINK, Microtech, etc is the way to go.
You get what you pay for, remember that
Also ask your self, what do professional race teams use?
The majority answer around the world is Bosch, Magnetti Marelli, Motec then Autronic in the mid price range systems. Then ask your self what major races or championships have been one in sports cars/touring cars or rally cars in the past 10 years with Microtech or Link or the like ?
No need to look, I will answer in for you. ZERO!!!!!
Michrotech and the likes are for hobby types and people who are challenged in the art of tunning/engine mapping...they are toys, toys that can go bad and cost you performance or when tunned to the edge can cost you a motor.
Take my advise, do not waste your time money or effort even considering pieces of **** like this.
Never liked Microtech in their current form.
04-03-02, 02:01 AM
#28
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
1000HP20B, why did your last engine let go????
I would change froma microtech and save the stress !
Joe from rotormaster uses EMS and his car is FAR better and more reliable now than when run on micritech.
I have spoke to quite a few guys and they have said the same as I have found that microtech are inacurate when tunned to the edge for best performance.
If you set everything with a good deal of saftey margin then I guess they will be fine.
Pretty pointless when there are so many good ECU's to choose from.
I would change froma microtech and save the stress !
Joe from rotormaster uses EMS and his car is FAR better and more reliable now than when run on micritech.
I have spoke to quite a few guys and they have said the same as I have found that microtech are inacurate when tunned to the edge for best performance.
If you set everything with a good deal of saftey margin then I guess they will be fine.
Pretty pointless when there are so many good ECU's to choose from.
Last edited by RICE RACING; 04-03-02 at 02:38 AM.
04-03-02, 06:25 AM
#29
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Rice,
I Tune and sell Microtech, Haltech and Motec. Look on the Haltech website, I am listed as a dealer.
I am not biased, and am just informed, I use this gear all day every day, I do tune work for other workshops as well. I'm merely saying the Microtech does have the timing slits that are not available on the Motec etc etc. I run Motecs and Haltechs on some of our circuit cars and Haltech on one of my own cars but all the 20Bs' I've done have have Microtech.
I'm not going to get into a slagfest, but Siguel Racing (fastest rotary in the world), Maztechs old RX7 8.10 before Joe from Rotormaster had run an 8.3 and Archie from Mazfix 7.88 as well as the MVA Mazda MX3 which runs 7's and our dragster 7.49 all run Microtech on 20b's
This is not to say that these cars couldnt run the numbers with say a Haltech, they could I'm sure.
I Tune and sell Microtech, Haltech and Motec. Look on the Haltech website, I am listed as a dealer.
I am not biased, and am just informed, I use this gear all day every day, I do tune work for other workshops as well. I'm merely saying the Microtech does have the timing slits that are not available on the Motec etc etc. I run Motecs and Haltechs on some of our circuit cars and Haltech on one of my own cars but all the 20Bs' I've done have have Microtech.
I'm not going to get into a slagfest, but Siguel Racing (fastest rotary in the world), Maztechs old RX7 8.10 before Joe from Rotormaster had run an 8.3 and Archie from Mazfix 7.88 as well as the MVA Mazda MX3 which runs 7's and our dragster 7.49 all run Microtech on 20b's
This is not to say that these cars couldnt run the numbers with say a Haltech, they could I'm sure.
04-03-02, 05:09 PM
#30
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
They are what they are, cheap and easy to tune !
They are popular for those resons, workshop/tunners me included like them because they are EASY money, lot easier to charge someone to map (joke on microtech!) and engine when you have so limited adjustments and it takes VERY little time.
The down sides as I mentioned and as many notable tunners have said id that they are suffer form lack of tunability and they suffer from lack of precise mixture control, ALOT of microtech equiped cars are run with larger saftey margins cause of these issues, or require very high octane racing fuel to act as a saftey barrier for when the ECU does whatever it does (and it usually does)
As I said, many notable people in your field have switched from microtech because they are poor, Rotor Master, Rigolli etc, they ALL ran quicker, much quicker with EMS and all report the ECU to be more consistent.
Microtech design and software inherently make them poor compared to realy good ECU's like the Autronic.
Just cause they are easy to tune and ALMOST anyone can run one does not mean they are good, as I said if they are good then many race teams would use them, they are not used in any other arena because of these faults I have listed.
They are popular for those resons, workshop/tunners me included like them because they are EASY money, lot easier to charge someone to map (joke on microtech!) and engine when you have so limited adjustments and it takes VERY little time.
The down sides as I mentioned and as many notable tunners have said id that they are suffer form lack of tunability and they suffer from lack of precise mixture control, ALOT of microtech equiped cars are run with larger saftey margins cause of these issues, or require very high octane racing fuel to act as a saftey barrier for when the ECU does whatever it does (and it usually does)
As I said, many notable people in your field have switched from microtech because they are poor, Rotor Master, Rigolli etc, they ALL ran quicker, much quicker with EMS and all report the ECU to be more consistent.
Microtech design and software inherently make them poor compared to realy good ECU's like the Autronic.
Just cause they are easy to tune and ALMOST anyone can run one does not mean they are good, as I said if they are good then many race teams would use them, they are not used in any other arena because of these faults I have listed.
04-03-02, 10:50 PM
#31
Lives on the Forum
Originally posted by InfiniIIIREX
Yeah I am trying to decide whether to get E6K or a Motec system, decisions decisions.
Yeah I am trying to decide whether to get E6K or a Motec system, decisions decisions.
-Ted
04-03-02, 10:52 PM
#33
Lives on the Forum
Re: MoTec Soul-7
Originally posted by bkapold@aol.com
The only advice I can give is to contact Mr. Kevin "ASP" Wyum....He is the man with the answers.
The only advice I can give is to contact Mr. Kevin "ASP" Wyum....He is the man with the answers.
From what I've seen there isn't anything those MoTec's can't do!
-Ted
04-03-02, 10:56 PM
#34
Lives on the Forum
Originally posted by Rotor Reaction
price for m800 is about AUD$3800, sensors and harness are not included.
price for m800 is about AUD$3800, sensors and harness are not included.
Have you ever installed one of these?  You obviously haven't priced out a MoTeC harness before...
-Ted
04-04-02, 05:28 AM
#36
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Rice,
All I can say is your knowledge of the Microtech system is extremely poor and I dont think you can comment on it if you dont use it, and you have already stated that you dont. This thread is not about group A touring cars, in fact this whole site is about rotaries, so you can forget the comments about those systems. The start of this thread was a guy who wanted to know how a motec would run his 20B. Given the track record by people producing near 1000hp with 20Bs, MOST of them run Microtech.
Again, I use and sell MOtec and Haltech aswell as Microtech, but Im not unbiased, just well informed, not ignorant, and am just telling it how it is. If the EMS does split timing etc etc etc then suggest that. I didnt and I didnt bag it either, because I dont know enough about the EMS computer. Maybe you should do the same .
All I can say is your knowledge of the Microtech system is extremely poor and I dont think you can comment on it if you dont use it, and you have already stated that you dont. This thread is not about group A touring cars, in fact this whole site is about rotaries, so you can forget the comments about those systems. The start of this thread was a guy who wanted to know how a motec would run his 20B. Given the track record by people producing near 1000hp with 20Bs, MOST of them run Microtech.
Again, I use and sell MOtec and Haltech aswell as Microtech, but Im not unbiased, just well informed, not ignorant, and am just telling it how it is. If the EMS does split timing etc etc etc then suggest that. I didnt and I didnt bag it either, because I dont know enough about the EMS computer. Maybe you should do the same .
04-04-02, 07:13 AM
#37
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Originally posted by 1000HP20B
Rice,
All I can say is your knowledge of the Microtech system is extremely poor and I dont think you can comment on it if you dont use it, and you have already stated that you dont. This thread is not about group A touring cars, in fact this whole site is about rotaries, so you can forget the comments about those systems. The start of this thread was a guy who wanted to know how a motec would run his 20B. Given the track record by people producing near 1000hp with 20Bs, MOST of them run Microtech.
Again, I use and sell MOtec and Haltech aswell as Microtech, but Im not unbiased, just well informed, not ignorant, and am just telling it how it is. If the EMS does split timing etc etc etc then suggest that. I didnt and I didnt bag it either, because I dont know enough about the EMS computer. Maybe you should do the same .
Rice,
All I can say is your knowledge of the Microtech system is extremely poor and I dont think you can comment on it if you dont use it, and you have already stated that you dont. This thread is not about group A touring cars, in fact this whole site is about rotaries, so you can forget the comments about those systems. The start of this thread was a guy who wanted to know how a motec would run his 20B. Given the track record by people producing near 1000hp with 20Bs, MOST of them run Microtech.
Again, I use and sell MOtec and Haltech aswell as Microtech, but Im not unbiased, just well informed, not ignorant, and am just telling it how it is. If the EMS does split timing etc etc etc then suggest that. I didnt and I didnt bag it either, because I dont know enough about the EMS computer. Maybe you should do the same .
I am not ignorant you are, Microtech is a poor substitute.They will give you MUCH more mapping control over a Microtech just not as easy if you want the split.
If you race rotaries then you do not run a split for maximum power, so I am confused as to why you run the Microtech at all?
People like yourself and Anthony come on here and because you have run a time you think you know EVERYTHING, I will let you in on a little secret, YOU DO NOT.
So if you have a question to ask me then ask it, extend me the professional attitude and I will give it to you. I have researched and experimented with MANY areas of rotary technology for over 10 years.
We are here to share ideas, not to promote products !
Last edited by RICE RACING; 04-04-02 at 07:20 AM.
04-04-02, 07:38 AM
#38
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Originally posted by The_HITman
As much as Rice goes a little over the top sometimes, he is completely right. I tune at least 2 or 3 Microtech systems a week including the LT laptop programmable (just a bigger hadset) versions, and I consider them one of the bottom of the heap, down there with EMS, Wolf, and Link. If you are serious about running your engine properly, spend the money and buy a high end system. The ECU is the beating heart of your powertrain, and cheaping out on the one thing that controls how your motor will run, especially after spending so much on it, is just ludicrous. I myself have a 3-rotor RX7 and I wouldn't put an MTX-12 (LT included) on my car if they were giving them out for free.
Nothing makes me laugh more than the comment I hear so often here in Aus. "Microtechs are the best for rotaries, mate". It has to be the biggest crock of **** next to the one about putting V8 vege-juice in your tank makes your car sound like a V8. :-) Rice hit the nail on the head..... MECHANICS sell Microtechs because any idiot can make the car run. Mechanics are not engine TUNERS. Most of them have no idea on fuelling and ignition requirements of an engine, so to them the cheapest thing that gets the car out of the workshop is the best option. They don't care that the customer will complain that it is too inconsistent to make their engine idle properly with large injectors, or they don't care that the ignition timing scatters like cockroaches under a spotlight. They don't have a clue how to configure the ignition setup of an ECU for different vehicles, and most don't have a clue if their 386SX laptop is running DOS or Windows. Instead they like the little handset that lets them feel like they are in control. For them, if the car runs then the job is done.
It is good to see people bringing up the scoreboard to show how good an ECU is. It only goes to show the monkey-see monkey-do attitude of drag racers, and how out of their depth they are when it comes to engine management and its application. To repeat on what has already been covered.... only drag racers use them, no-one else does.
To summarise.... if you want your engine to run properly and to last, pay the extra and get a good ECU. At least it will then have the scope to expand with you as your vehicle progresses, and wont need to be replaced when you DO find the limitations of cheaper systems like the Microwrecks.
As much as Rice goes a little over the top sometimes, he is completely right. I tune at least 2 or 3 Microtech systems a week including the LT laptop programmable (just a bigger hadset) versions, and I consider them one of the bottom of the heap, down there with EMS, Wolf, and Link. If you are serious about running your engine properly, spend the money and buy a high end system. The ECU is the beating heart of your powertrain, and cheaping out on the one thing that controls how your motor will run, especially after spending so much on it, is just ludicrous. I myself have a 3-rotor RX7 and I wouldn't put an MTX-12 (LT included) on my car if they were giving them out for free.
Nothing makes me laugh more than the comment I hear so often here in Aus. "Microtechs are the best for rotaries, mate". It has to be the biggest crock of **** next to the one about putting V8 vege-juice in your tank makes your car sound like a V8. :-) Rice hit the nail on the head..... MECHANICS sell Microtechs because any idiot can make the car run. Mechanics are not engine TUNERS. Most of them have no idea on fuelling and ignition requirements of an engine, so to them the cheapest thing that gets the car out of the workshop is the best option. They don't care that the customer will complain that it is too inconsistent to make their engine idle properly with large injectors, or they don't care that the ignition timing scatters like cockroaches under a spotlight. They don't have a clue how to configure the ignition setup of an ECU for different vehicles, and most don't have a clue if their 386SX laptop is running DOS or Windows. Instead they like the little handset that lets them feel like they are in control. For them, if the car runs then the job is done.
It is good to see people bringing up the scoreboard to show how good an ECU is. It only goes to show the monkey-see monkey-do attitude of drag racers, and how out of their depth they are when it comes to engine management and its application. To repeat on what has already been covered.... only drag racers use them, no-one else does.
To summarise.... if you want your engine to run properly and to last, pay the extra and get a good ECU. At least it will then have the scope to expand with you as your vehicle progresses, and wont need to be replaced when you DO find the limitations of cheaper systems like the Microwrecks.
DO NOT LISTEN to the likes of Microtech rep Cory, Anthony or his fan club.
You want split timming so bad for your 20B? wait for the new Haltech.
04-04-02, 12:25 PM
#39
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It takes all of 30 minutes to set-up ANY (competent) stand-alone EMS to run WOT maps.  I don't doubt those drag cars are producing serious power.  Anyone with a basic knowledge of fuel injection and engine control systems can tune any stand-alone EMS system to produce nice power for drag racing in a very short amount of time.  Add a wide-band UEGO, and it's practically a piece of cake.  I side with RICE RACING on this, as I've messed with Haltech and MoTeC systems with limited exposure to Wolf, Microtech, Autronics, and Electromotive systems.
Try and tune a STREET vehicle, and it's a whole different ballgame...
Try and tune a STREET vehicle, and it's a whole different ballgame...
04-04-02, 08:58 PM
#41
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Originally posted by Dr Wankel
I will definately envy you if you do get the MoTec engine management. I was recently at a vehicle dynamics seminar that was given by Claude Rouelle who has been a very sucessful racecar engineer over the past 20 years. His seminars are sponsored by MoTec so he was showing us all about them and about the data acquisition features of the MoTec computers. They are truely amazing!!!!!!
Here is info about the seminar. If any of you ever have the chance to go I would not pass it up. The amount of knowledge that Claude shares is incredible.
http://www.motec.com/semnars/claude_seminars.htm
I will definately envy you if you do get the MoTec engine management. I was recently at a vehicle dynamics seminar that was given by Claude Rouelle who has been a very sucessful racecar engineer over the past 20 years. His seminars are sponsored by MoTec so he was showing us all about them and about the data acquisition features of the MoTec computers. They are truely amazing!!!!!!
Here is info about the seminar. If any of you ever have the chance to go I would not pass it up. The amount of knowledge that Claude shares is incredible.
http://www.motec.com/semnars/claude_seminars.htm
PK
04-05-02, 03:35 AM
#42
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i've said it once and i'll say it again for the millionth time
YOU DONT NEED **** as far as ECU's go to run for 7 to 9 seconds down the 1/4 miles
drag cars see the same mapping zones for the same 8 or so seconds EVERY SINGLE RUN, a system with 4 mapable points per RPM range would run just fine down a strip, but when it comes to the road or a race circut its a DIFFERENT KETTLE OF FISH
YOU DONT NEED **** as far as ECU's go to run for 7 to 9 seconds down the 1/4 miles
drag cars see the same mapping zones for the same 8 or so seconds EVERY SINGLE RUN, a system with 4 mapable points per RPM range would run just fine down a strip, but when it comes to the road or a race circut its a DIFFERENT KETTLE OF FISH
04-05-02, 10:12 AM
#43
Haltech E6K
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Originally posted by 20B_FC
Anyone want to start a GB for the Motec ADL's?
PK
Anyone want to start a GB for the Motec ADL's?
PK
04-05-02, 01:48 PM
#44
Haltech E6K
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Originally posted by RETed
.... as I've messed with Haltech and MoTeC systems with limited exposure to Wolf, Microtech, Autronics, and Electromotive systems.
Try and tune a STREET vehicle, and it's a whole different ballgame...
.... as I've messed with Haltech and MoTeC systems with limited exposure to Wolf, Microtech, Autronics, and Electromotive systems.
Try and tune a STREET vehicle, and it's a whole different ballgame...
Rev. Dr. Jay
http://ricemobile.net/
04-07-02, 06:22 AM
#45
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An answer to your original question is that I believe the new M800 does split the leading and trailing timing. It has also been important to me to be able to adjust the leading and trailing timings as in extremely high combustion chamber situations, I have found that firing them together in my own turbo combinations has created problems that could be diagnosed as conflicting flame front problems. this problem was inherent of whatever ecu I ran. If you are going to take advantage of the Data aquisition and other functions, the M800 is definitely a good unit.If you are not then perhaps you should be looking at other units that can perform the required job.
Regards- Anthony.
Regards- Anthony.
04-07-02, 06:28 AM
#46
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Anthony, what kind of problems did you have?
and at what level of tune (ie HP, boost and fuel/plugs & other engine specs,like a/f ratio?)+ without being critical of ECU types but what systems did this happen with?
There are lots of variables in there as you know, but I would be interested to here of your experiences on the occasions you noticed these problems.
and at what level of tune (ie HP, boost and fuel/plugs & other engine specs,like a/f ratio?)+ without being critical of ECU types but what systems did this happen with?
There are lots of variables in there as you know, but I would be interested to here of your experiences on the occasions you noticed these problems.
04-07-02, 06:30 AM
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Please do not take any offence, if correct advice is what we are trying to give, people posting opinions on the Microtech MT/LT systems need to have a proper look at the new laptop systems. They also now have full fuel Matrix capabilities and some new features that make them definitely worth a look. If you still do not like them after you know what is in them I will also respect that as your opinion. I too have had my medication and come in peace.
Regards-Anthony
Regards-Anthony
04-07-02, 06:47 AM
#48
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Please keep in mind that I couldn't get in there while it was happening, but certain wear patterns on te apex seals suggested that they were rocking more at similar egt's /ign timing and afr's but reduced timing. These were of course with MT12 (on 13B) or Motec. Also detonation points seemed to be earlier with timing split below 5deg. I used head phones to detect this (while not absolute, I dont like chances above 30psi). This diagnosis was suggested to me by a piston engine builder I respect. hp=164mph@2270lbs/C16 Racing fuel/ngk race plugs/side port/33psi/afr=lean/egt=high.
As I said this could be diagnosed as being the problem, but while I am not 100% most other variables pointed it to be correct. I also believe that this flame front theory is of most critical at peak torq. and agree that with NA applications split is not that critical, but can make minor power differences.
As I said this could be diagnosed as being the problem, but while I am not 100% most other variables pointed it to be correct. I also believe that this flame front theory is of most critical at peak torq. and agree that with NA applications split is not that critical, but can make minor power differences.
04-07-02, 07:07 AM
#49
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
It's good to hear someones elses experiences, I herd you ran water/methanol enrichment on your car when 13B power, you are about the only other rotary person in Aust aside from me to run a system like that on an EFI Turbo rotary !
Do you still use it?
Do you still use it?