Blake

Several years ago, I watched a Japanese video special on RX-7s. It was really cool, but I don't speak Japanese. However, there was one point when they opened the hood of a 1st gen and revealed a really cool fuel injection setup. The guy asking questions then uttered the only words I could truly understand: "Ahhh, Motec!" Ahhh, Motec, indeed! The Gold Standard of programmable EFI; a whole order of magnitude more prestigious -- and expensive -- than Haltech or the other pretenders. I always wanted one.

Well, now I've got one! Not one of the newer systems, of course. Even if I could afford to pay three grand (or more), I could never bring myself to do it when there are less expensive and nearly as capable systems out there. Instead, I found an older fuel-only MoTeC that had never been used. The bonus is that it's a complete setup, including not only the ECU but also a hand controller (for programming without the need for a laptop), all the sensors (1 & 3 Bar MAP, CLT, TPS, etc), an uncut wiring harness with all the wires labled, a manifold for a 4-port 13B, a 48mm throttle body, fuel rail, 72 lbs/hr injectors (~750cc/min), fuel pump, FPR, manual, etc. Quite a haul.

I haven't decided if this is going on one of my 1st gens yet...I have a Haltech E6K that will probably get used if I decide to make the GSL-SE a turbo car. So, I may just put it on my Rotary Truck with the streetported S4 NA engine that I haven't yet finished due to time constraints. I am close to being done with a Megasquirt install on it, but it would almost be worth tearing that off in order to make use of the MoTeC. It also seems appropriate to use an old school EFI setup on an old school vehicle, like the REPU. Anyway, it's a nice dilema to have, if you know what I mean.

Any other MoTeC owners out there?

Dan H

Lucky!! I'd love to have that setup if I were to build up an NA EFI.

RX7Elmo

that manifold and the individual throttle bodies is tres sexy! Good luck and post pics when it's installed!

Alex-7

Hatchi Matchi, you a lucky man............................................... ........

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

It even came with a fuel pump and pressure reg... How far in your MegaSquirt install did you get? I suppose a MegaSquirt would be more appropriate on a newer engine, like S5/13BRE etc.

Are you going to go with the old tried and true 1st gen dizzy setup, or go for the gusto and install DLIDIFS in your truck? It's actually easier in a truck than in a 1st gen since there is more room to work with and the coils are closer to the engine.

rwatson5651

iTrader: (5)

Just how much is that thing worth????

I have a sa w/ 13 b 4 port that it would be perfect for?

Just how rare / expensive is this setup???

FD Racer

Sweet purchase!
No motec here, but I am running a fuel & spark Microtech TBI setup. It's a 50mm throttle body with four 550cc injectors from a TII. The motor is a 4 port, streetported, with 89 NA high compression rotors. I am extremely pleased with the setup...

nimrodTT

Nice score, and you got it for an amazing price too. If I had seen that auction....

Hyper4mance2k

iTrader: (40)

uummmmmm i just came seriously....

QuagmireMan

what did that set you back?

Blake

Six months ago, all I had left on the Megasquirt install was to add fluids, install a fuel pump and wire the starter. But, when I added coolant, the old water pump leaked like a sieve so I had to pull and replace it. That took an extra day plus I had to wait another 24 hours to let the sealant set up, so I had to head home to Seattle and let the project sit. But then I was in a crunch to get my "halfling" trailer ready for a trip to Sevenstock. Got that done, but came down with food poisoning right before the trip. Then I got a new 1st gen, in which I put a 4.88/LSD/disc rear end and Racing Beat suspension and 3rd gen R1 seats and... Okay, then I got a GSL-SE for $300 that had "run when parked", so I spent a weekend getting that to run again. Now it starts great but dies after warmup and I've eliminated all possibilities but the AFM and ECU. That pretty much gets us to today, so the REPU still needs the fuel pump and starter wired. Sooooo close, so I may just do those couple things and then see if she'll start with the Megasquirt. On the other hand, if I'm going to make the switch to Motec, I should probably just not waste any more time on the Megasquirt and yank it. Because, if it doesn't start, I will spend whatever time it takes to troubleshoot the problem and get it going, and if it does start, I will want to tune it to see how good it works. At that point, why even use the Motec? I guess I could use it on something else, but I don't want it just sitting on the shelf unused until I have time for a new project. I'd rather sell or trade it (anyone got 15x7 Panasports for a GSL-SE with good tires?).

Anyway, I need to make up my mind and set a clear direction for all my projects. Perhaps when I move back to Portland, where my shop is, I won't have such a problem getting stuff done -- living 200 miles from the shop is a PITA!

BTW, yes, I am sticking with the stock ignition.

Blake

I only paid $760 for it in an eBay auction. I figure it's worth at least a grand (or more) with all that stuff combined, so I convinced myself I could not afford not to buy it! Motecs are very rare becuase they are so expensive when new...it's like buying a used Ferarri. This Motec is the Ferarri 308 of the EFI world. It was quite potent in its day but even lowly competitors have passed it by in terms of performance and features...but it's still a Ferarri and thus commands more value. Whatever car it goes in, you can open the hood and people will say in a universal language "Ahhh, Motec!"

EDIT: the weird thing is, I just bought a Haltech E6K a few days before and it won't arrive until Monday, according to the UPS tracking. The Haltech will be used, most likely, on my GSL-SE because I prefer a programmable ignition for turbo applications (which is the most likely course of action on that project). Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind

renns

Blake,

What features does a fuel-only Motec have that MS doesn't? If they are close or equal, I'd sell the Motec and pick up those 15" Panasports in a flash.

Roger.

Blake

In terms of features, not so much. But the hand cotroller is brilliant in it's simplicity and power. They really had some smart people woking on that! I may scan the controller instruction manual and upload it so that people on the Megasquirt list can see how it worked...perhap someone will use it as inspiration for a Megasquirt hand controller. Apart from the controller, the capabilities are similar. I think the Motec is a bit smarter, in terms of extrapolating a fuel curve with limited inputs (full load and low load are programmed, then it does the rest). Of course, I haven't used either in the real-world yet. That just makes me want to do BOTH and compare!

Really, I don't know what the Motec unit and controller are worth separate from the manifold, throttle body, fuel rail, injectors, pump, etc. I figured it's kind of a bonus for buying all the hardware. If it has real value, I would sell it in a heartbeat and continue on with the Megasquirt.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

So, stock ignition as always, then? It sure would be cool to know someone with a MegaSquirted REPU, regardless of ignition status.

Man, I'm sure some pepole here would PAY to have your problems.

Blake

I guess I should add that it has built-in support for staged injection, a rev limiter (hard and soft), support for both high and low impedence injectors, 1 and 3 bar external MAP sensors, boost-specific fuel map, and more.

Blake

I accept cash, checks and Paypal!

Blake

Here is the handheld controller:



It has two modes: View and Adjust (the "V" and "A" at the top).

In the View mode, from top to bottom, it has:

(1) MAP: Manifold Pressure Sensor output in KPA units
(2) TP: Throttle Position (volts)
(3) ET: Engine Temp
(4) AT: Air Temp
(5) BAT: Battery Voltage
(6) BAP: Barometric Pressure
(7) PW: Injector Pulse Width
(8) DUTY: Injector Duty Cycle
(9) [nothing]
(10) DIAG: Diagnostic error codes (quite comprehensive!)

In Adjust mode, from top to bottom, it has:

(1) TRIM: a trim control to shift the entire fuel curve up to 50% either way
(2) LL: Low Load fuel map (500 RPM increments, 0-15,000 rpm as far as I can tell)
(3) FL: Full Load fuel map (ditto)
(4) BOOST: Boost fuel map (ditto)
(5) ACCEL: Accelleration enrichment in 1000 RPM increments
(6) COLD: Cold start enrichment (0-100)
(7) RPM: Rev limiter with "hard" and "soft" fuel cut (0-15,000 RPM, in 10 RPM increments)
(8) CYLS: Number of cylinders
(9) INJ. R: Resistance value of injectors (0.5-16.0)
(10) P. SEN: Type of pressure sensor (1 or 3 Bar)

The Select buttons move you up and down in the View and Adjust menu. Pressing both Pervious and Next buttons moves it to Adjust mode. When doing fuel maps, the Previous and Next buttons takes you bin to bin and the dial is used to calibrate the fuel setting. It has RPM and Load cursors to help you nail the corrrect bin before you change it.

It can display up to eight error codes simultaneously, four each on the RPM and Calibration displays. They are:

RPM Display codes (up to four):

0 No Errors
1 Crank Sen Error
2 RPM Limit Exceeded
3 ECU Reset while eng. running
4 Injector Max Duty Exceeded
5 Syncronization Pulse Error
6 Battery Voltage Below 10V while engine above 2000 RPM
7 Internal Memory Error
8 Overboost

Calibration display codes (up to four):

0 No Errors
1 Self Check Performaed
2 Map sensor out of range
3 TP sensor out of range
4 AT sensor out of range
5 ET sensor out of range
6 Battery voltage out of range
7 EX map out of range
8 A/F sensor out of range

Overall, I'd say it is quite capable but easy to understand. It even will perform error checking on the type of pressure sensor so you can't set it for, say, 3 bar when you are really using a 1 bar sensor (this can also be overridden).

renns

How do you get soft rev limiter with a fuel-only controller?

The rest of the stuff is all available with the MS as well. One spec to take a look at would be injector resolution. All but one MS code variant only support 0.1ms increments in pulse width, which can make tuning big injectors at idle problematic. This is not as much of an issue when using staged injection, as only half the injectors are on-line at idle, but it would still be nice to have finer tuning capabilities in this area.

Looks like a great find! Post some pics of the install once underway.

Cheers,
Roger.

Blake

I believe it cuts one rotor completely while leaving the other alone. The manual states that it only works with single injector per cylinder (or rotor, in this case) setups; staged injection requires a hard cut.

I wouldn't say it's all available with megasquirt...at least not "stock". Some stuff, like staged injection, requires re-flashing the processor and different software, and then you trade off low-impedence injector control (or was that the "high-rez" option, I forget). But for me, the big one is the handheld controller. Sure, you can use the Palm option on a Megasquirt but, like with so many things, it takes a lot of tech-savvy to harness all the possibilities. I guess I just like a nicely "packaged" setup that does not make my brain hurt.

Part of the reason I'm thinking about ditching the Megasquirt has to do with some issues that make me think something is messed up. I've assembled two of them and checked them thoroughly with the stimulator and Megatune. They tested perfectly when "stock" but when I reflashed one for dual table code, weird stuff happened. Some pots on the stimulator do nothing or will result in odd behavior of the stim lights (flashing in sync) or not work properly in Megatune. Sometimes my maps dissapear or the basic settings go back to their default values. One of the processors refused to work for awhile but then was okay after re-fashing the original code. Just a bunch a weird things and I can't recall all the details after all this time. Perhaps some was due to low voltage when reflashing or my soldering sucks or whatever, but I really don't care...I just want a functioning fuel setup that doesn't require an EE to troubleshoot. I will probably give it one more shot. Perhaps just reflash the basic code and see how that goes before getting fancy with the dual table code and adapting for Mazda sensors. That was the plan until I lucked into the Motec and I really hate to give up on it before seeing it run. We'll see.

I guess I could just set up my REPU with the GM sensors and rig it so I can try both Megasquirt and Motec systems back-to-back. That may be an interesting experience...a lot more fun than bench racing the specs!

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Thanks again for making positive comments about my soldering skills. It sorta took me by surprise. Am I really that good at it? I hadn't soldered anything serious in 10 years and was really rusty when I started. After finishing, my skills were better than they'd ever been before. And what's all this dual table speak? That's so old school now. I never actually even tried DT. I went from the 3.0 code to Roger's modifed EDIS code for his staged injection when I was going to run fuel-only, then to MSnS-Extra which incorporates everything, including staged injection, DT, EDIS, classic MSnSpark etc, not to mention a really nifty generic wheel decoder which was recently added to the mix (it's what I'll use for spark, and you know what that means...).

Even when I fried my transistor on the and stim and could only bench test with the CAS or a recorded wav file of the CAS (yet another use for a sound card in a computer), I just replaced it with a similar value and kept going. Even when I fried my CPU (my fault, not caused by shoddy code or hardware), it only took about one week for a new one to arrive. I reflashed the code (simple procedure) and I was back in bussiness within minutes.

Maybe I'm a little too close to the hardware right now, but the MS is the very best ECU I could use for my particular setup. From the high impedance injectors (no flyback board required), to the fast idle air valve (hardware support), to the two injectors per rotor (Roger's staged code takes care of that), to the stock variable resistor type TPS (no high/low switch for me), and finally, to the three convenient LEDs to be used as ignition outputs with the addition of a simple pull-up resistor on each, you'd have a hard time getting me to go with any other ECU (even if you payed me, lol). The only other mod is to the CAS for the wheel decoder, but I won't get into that here.

Yes, the Motec has a nice list of features and a more intuitive handset than Microtech. Why don't you give MegaSquirt one more try? Forget about the dual table code and go with Extra and a newer version of MegaTune. I bet it'll actually work, unless you forgot to use some 99% alcohol on your PCB, and the wonderful moist air in portland allowed the flux to cause solder bloom or other such damage. Heh, my (red) REPU needs a fuel pump too. It also needs me to rebuild its engine that's sitting on the floor in my garage. I'm actually having a tough time deciding whether I should work on the truck's 13B, or install the MS in my car first. Hmm.

Blake

Honestly, Jeff, I haven't a clue what you're talking about. Who mentioned your soldering skils? What was the context? All I said was that my first crack at it worked great but I had some problems when I tried to re-flash to add capabilities that the Motec has "stock". Also, I said I would probably just revert to the plain-jane MS before writing it off and perhaps try both systems back-to-back.

It is Saturday night, so I guess there is a very logical explanation for your sudden lack of reading comprehension!

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

And for your lack of memory. (Do you remember when I showed you my MS PCB and you thought it looked really well soldered?)

Hmm, it would be a good idea to try both ECUs in the REPU, if that's really what you want to do. I don't really see it becoming a reality though. It would be interesting to see the differences of MS vs that vintage Motec you've got there. Of course the Motec would no longer have an uncut wiring harness if you actually did use it. Are you sure you want to deflower it?

What's this about GM temp sensors? Didn't you share a dialogue with Roger about the proper bias resistor swap if using a Mazda thermistor, and how to compile the new table into an s19 file? I came to you and you said you got your info from him. Just curious.

This is for anyone out there not familiar with the MegaSquirt. Even though the MegaSquirt isn't very expensive, if time is money, the amount of time it takes to build it may come close to the more expensive comercial ECUs (especially if you're new to a lot of the concepts of an aftermarket EFI system, or EFI in general). MegaSquirt isn't for everybody. However, the flashable software is free. It's really not that hard to figure out how to flash the CPU. The instructions are clear and there are a few different ways to do it.

It's strange to think that the standard code that every CPU comes loaded with (along with a bootloader to enable easy reflashing) could be thought of as a deterrent. That's the general tone I'm getting in this thread. I thought the beauty of MegaSquirt was the ability to flash new codes to increase its features and usefulness.

The latest codes are stable and can do a lot more than those expensive fuel-only ECUs out there. If I was Blake, I'd sell the Motec or trade for some nice rims or something.

Blake

Ah okay, but it's an awfully long time to bring it up without context...like, "Hey, remember when you came over to my house and I showed you my Megasquirt board?" I was thinking you interpreted something I wrote in this thread as implying that and I couldn't figure out how it could happen. Nevermind.

Sure, why not. That's just the way I roll, homey.

The context of my comments were in terms of comparring the ECUs back-to-back. Considering that the Motec requires GM sensors, the only logical thing is to revert the MS to its base configuration so they can share the sensors. Otherwise, I'd have to have two sets of sensors and twice as many wires.

Hyper4mance2k

iTrader: (40)

good thread, all the newbies shoukd be reading this instead of "what body kit is this?", lol