Hey, if anyone could look over my MSQ to ensure i have everything set up properly i would appreciate it. I am trying to start my Turbo 2 hybrid t04, 550cc primary, 1000cc secondary, street ported engine for the first time. I am pretty sure i flooded it the first time i turned it over, however the timing seems to be way off (with a CAS stab at tooth 3 past the Ne sensor @ TDC) while starting. I cant even see any of the timing marks. I am running a V2.2 board with errors daughter card using dual VR circuts, I am getting a tach signal of about 300 when cranking I have heard the injectors firing and see spark, but it will not start. I have checked and rechecked all of my wiring and it seems correct (hence, i imagine that is the reason i have proper tach and i am actually seeing spark just not at the right time). I am taking my timing off of L1, which i hope is correct.

Thanks in advance.
I also posted a datalog of a cranking session if that helps.

 

I'll take a look when I get home from work/gym.

Ken

 

Thanks a lot Ken,
An update: I Tried to start it again and it appears L1 is firing between 5-10 btdc (no marks on that side) which seems odd.

 

and that is at full retard on the CAS (counter clockwise)

 

Yeah, it's going to be hard to start if it's firing that advanced... Most likely you need to adjust your wheel settings or restab the CAS and readjust to get timing that matches what you have set for crank timing.

I didn't get a chance to look at your msq yet, but will as soon as I can.

Ken

 

Another update, I tried to get it going again last night by fiddilling around with the CAS stab. I almost had the timing right and with a little fluttering of the throttle it started, and then died. Of course the battery was getting low by that point so i could not investigate further. My largest source of concern is the stabbing of the CAS, I feel like i am getting it lined up with the 3rd tooth, and the engine is on the -5 mark, but when i begin checking the timing i have to adjust it all the way retarded to get it anywhere close to the -5 mark (it still will not go all the way there). So i am wondering if a setting is off, or am i stabbing the CAS incorrectly, shouldn't the third tooth at -5 put me really close to where i need to be? Why is it so far off? One solution that i have thought about is the fact that i am running an S5 pulley, however it is mounted with an s5 front balancer, so i believe the timing should be the same, is that correct? or is there some other s4 related item that would be screwing up my visualization of the timing marks?

 

You might have the VR sensor wired backwards, or the settings you have might not match the way you're stabbing the CAS.

I'll be able to tell about the settings when I get home and check your msq.

Ken

 

Your settings should be able to get you close... on crank your timing will be at TDC, so it won't line up exactly with the -5 timing mark.

Based on what you've said I think you might have your Ne+ and Ne- wired backwards...

It's hard to tell but you may have done the same with G+/G-, but that's not as important since you can change a setting depending on how you wired those.

Ken

 

Thanks a lot, I will look at that when i get home. what is indicative of the wires being reversed? the difficulty in getting the timing to go to -5? or is it something with the datalog? Could i set the fixed timing to 0 and try to get it set that way? i can estimate pretty closely as to where that is on the pulley.

 

the fact that when lined up on tooth #3, you weren't anywhere near the right timing is what makes me think the wires are backwards...

On MS2 you could just switch which edge the Input Capture triggers on, but MS1 doesn't have that capability, so the only way around it is to switch the VR wires, or to switch from TSEL->VROUTINV to TSEL->VROUT inside the MS.

Ken

 

Well that was definitely a problem, I switched the wires around and i got the timing spot on, -5. Cant' believe I missed that, as i look at that wiring at least 50 times. Now, that it is spot on, it is still not firing right up (or rather not at all, it does sound better however), should i switch my settings to the timing table (-10)now even though i can not get the car started? I am still hoping the s5 front pulley and balancer are not causing me a problem, all though I am reasonable sure I am ok there.
Thanks for your help Ken if you ever get down to richmond i will buy you a beer or two.

 

So it's taking a long time to fire up? Can you describe exactly what it's doing now that you fixed the wires?

Now that the timing is right, the problem might be fouled sparkplugs or a flooded engine.

If you've been cranking on it a while, I recommend going into flood-clear mode for a bit... usually in flood clear mode the engine will either start, or try to start then go back to cranking speed. That's how you know you're not flooded anymore.

When I'm first trying to start an engine I've never worked on before, I flood clear after every unsuccessful start attempt, as well as after every start then stall.

Ken

 

I have been attempting to start it now for the last few days. I have gone off and on with flood clear, although not as consistent as you describe. It sounds like it is just about to start, but does not. I went so far as to remove the plugs and allow it to rotate to clear the housing out before turning the injectors and ignition on, this still did not start it. The plugs look fine. They are brand new, but have been wetted pretty well from the start attempts, would that fowl them? The only other thing i see is some spiking in the RPM while cranking i have attached a datalog of one of my more resent start attempts, would these prevent it from starting? I would think they would not, but make it run poorly.

 

here it be

 

When you're cranking, how often does the reported RPM change? It should change pretty quickly, if it's not, you might have a noise problem preventing consistent sync.

Just to make sure everything else is set up right, you can try push or pull starting the engine. IF it starts and runs alright like that, but won't start when cranking, then you know you most likely have a noise problem.

Ken

 

The RPM spikes about every 1/3 of a second on average, to about 500-600. I dont know if that is the change you are speaking of, but it jumps really quick. Pushing or pulling it to start is not the easiest thing to do at the moment as it is in the middle of my warehouse surounded by other crap. It really sounds like it wants to start, which is probally the most frustrating, if this were a distributed engine i would swear that it sounded like the ignition was just off, but when i adjust the cas both - and + it does not make a difference. Also with flood clear, shouldn't i see the Pulse Widths drop in my datalog? Prehaps i did not hold it open for long enough.

 

With flood clear, the pulse-width should drop to 0 in the datalog, and on the megatune screen. if it doesn't you need to make sure your TPS is wired right, then set the flood clear ADC number lower.

Ken

 

Yeah looks like the TPS current was set to high for the Flood clear, I am still unable to get it to start. I will try some more tonight and hopefully make some progress.

 

An update:
Last night i was fiddling around with the car, and finally got it to start. I had to open the throttle a lot, it was around 70-100% open the entire time. I kept it going for a little, but it would not idle and died. I tried to start it again and no love. Looking at my datalog it appears as though flood clear is now working, however when the RPMs spike between the cranking ~260 and about 600 the computer jumps from cranking to operations stopping flood clear. Should i increase my cranking RPMs? or should i try and smooth the idle out ( I would rather do this obviously)? It seems like when the engine wants to start and the RPMs increase the idle smooths out considerably. I have attached a Datalog as an example of one of my just off from starting cranking sessions. Are the problems I am experiencing indicative of the streetported engine? I had not imagined that it would be this difficult to start. It feels like there is just to much gas going in, as to get it started i really need to open the throttle up to flood clear and feather it around that point. A bit frustrated.

PAtrick

 

sorry here is the data log.

 

You have noise on your vr sensor wire/wires if you are getting rpm spikes. Buy good quality shielded microphone cable and the noise will reduce 10 fold.

This probably isn't your only problem tho.

As a rough guide, you want 3.3ms inc opening time to idle, and you want ~4-5ms for cranking at 20degC which is cool day in the tropics temp.

 

Hey JoBro,
Do you think that would fix the problem? it seems like it smooths out pretty well after it gets above 600 RPM. I will try and run all new wires see if that does it, but the stock ones looked like they were in decent shape.