SWAT81

iTrader: (14)

BRZ style wing, I'm interested on seeing how this turns out on actual setup for the FD. It is nice to see active members develope custom parts for the community. Keep up the good work.

SA3R

Credit for finding that mounting point through the rear lights, but some feedback-

You need to run those reverse lights, and the red reflectors on the street to be legal, yes? As in no part of the reflectors can be obscured or removed, and reverse lights still have to be functional. I would be pulled over and my car would be instantly towed and given a defect sticker for that (not sure about law in US states? More lenient than in AUS?)

Part of the assembly (well, okay, most of it) protrudes past the extent of the stock vehicle bodywork. This is classed as a hazard to pedestrians? (catching of clothes, sharp edges without radius striking pedestrians, etc- is this legal in US? it isnt down under )

Purely from a nitpicking point of view and not a safety thing, how much does this all weigh?
Access to the rear hatch area now only from the sides when the hatch is open?
Someone at some stage will back into something with this attached- that probably isnt going to go well for the bumper cover or the spoiler frame arms. So there will be a bigger repair cost.

I'm all for stock-appearing parts, including spoilers, so this isnt my taste. But I can appreciate the work thats gone into it, with the FEA work and CAD and finding an alternative mount point that doesnt screw the rear hatch up. I like that a lot. I just wanted to play devils advocate

theorie

iTrader: (31)

This wing isn't a "street wing"...I clearly said in my original post that the wing is being designed for "track use" for the exact reason of NOT having a wing on the car when you are street driving. Also the reverse light will still be functional even though its not really needed for track use.

Once again, the wing is for track use. The reason I designed it as a 2-piece riser using existing mounting holes / bolts is so you can install the wing at the track and remove it when you're done, with no evidence left over.

I'm not sure about weight of the risers/mounts yet since I don't have my physical prototype back from the machine shop yet. The airfoil itself is very light as it is a professional-level racing wing. You can find more info about this airfoil here: APR Performance - GTC-300 Adjustable Wing

The risers are being made from aluminum so they shouldn't be too heavy. The design has the lattice cut-out structure to further reduce weight while maintaining structural integrity.

There are always trade-offs when modifying a car. A wing may add some weight, but it will help handling and stability. Weight isn't the only thing you should worry about.

Not sure your question. There is plenty of room to access the rear hatch when the wing is installed.

Again, you've obviously missed the point. This is a wing for track use - not grocery getting.

Ok.

bigpaparotor

iTrader: (10)

I would be interested in this.

SpAm@FC

iTrader: (4)

@Theorie

as a buddy of mine is currentyl ordering a wing from APR performance, I'm thinking about ordering a wing together with him to save on shipping costs.

Please verify which wing will be used with your braket setup.

Is it the "AS-106757 Universal Mounting bases sit 47" apart (center-to-center)."?

theorie

iTrader: (31)

The APR wing my mounts use is the GTC-300 which has the 47" mounting bases. As I mentioned before, I was able to secure a deal with APR that will save us some money if we do run a group buy, but it won't include the "universal mounts" which you wont use if you're using my mounts anyway.

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

Tom, I think the confusion with some of the recent posts relates to your statement of:

"The mounting system for the wing that uses CNC'd 2-piece aluminum risers & steel mounting brackets with (4) points of attachment to the body using existing bolts/mounting holes. The mounts install in a matter of minutes using a screwdriver and socket wrench. Once the mounts are installed, they can stay attached to the car (completely hidden from sight) even when the risers are not attached."

So, for those that want to use the wing on the track and then remove it for street driving, would you confirm what stays attached to the car? Do both the upper and lower mounts stay attached and if so, I would guess that means the upper mounting system can remain and the lights/reflectors can be reinstalled for street use?

And an additional question: One of the posters comments regarding legality on the streets makes me wonder about legality of using something like this on the track. With the wing affixed like you have it on the back, will a car pass tech inspection? Would it be considered a safety hazard to others? You might want to verify that.

theorie

iTrader: (31)

My design is made up of 3 different components:
- risers (2 for each side): "upper riser" and "lower riser" (they bolt together to form one large riser)
- mounts (3 for each side): "tiedown mount", "adapter mount", and "L-shaped" mount
- the airfoil


NOTE: the parts in this photo are not the final revision of the design, this is just to give you an idea.


NOTE: the parts in this photo are not the final revision of the design, this is just to give you an idea. Also, the "adapter mount" sandwiches between the chassis & the "L-shaped mount" and it is not pictured.

The mounts are made up of 3 different pieces:
- a lower "tiedown mount" that replaces the rear factory tiedown bracket (under the car) - this is installed once and then can stay on the car because it is not visible
- an upper "adapter mount" that bolts to the rear-rebar studs (once this is installed it can stay there because it does not obstruct the reinstallation of the reverse light / reflector.
- an upper "L-shaped mount" that bolts to the "adapter mount" on one end, and on the other end bolts to the "lower riser". The "L-shaped mount" is the part that you remove when you are not running the wing, so you can re-install the reverse light / reflector.

Because you need parts for each side of the car, the kit will include:
x2 "tiedown mounts"
x2 "adapter mounts"
x2 "L-shaped mounts"
x2 "lower risers"
x2 "upper risers"
x1 airfoil
x1 "bag of hardware" (nuts & bolts)

Here is how initial mounting part install goes:
1) remove factory tiedown mounts from under car (3 bolts)
2) install new "tiedown mount" in its place (3 bolts)
3) remove rear bumper reverse light / reflector (1 screw)
4) remove 2 nuts that secure rebar to chassis
5) install "adapter mount" and reinstall 2 nuts so it is secure to the chassis
6) reinstall reverse light / reflector unit (1 screw)

So now the initial mounts are installed and out of sight so the car looks stock & wingless.

Say you head to the track and want to install the wing:

After the initial mounting part install, you can attach the wing like this:
1) remove rear bumper reverse light / reflector (1 screw)
2) attach the "L-shaped mount" to the "adapter mount" that is already bolted to the chassis (2 nuts)
3) attach the lower riser to the part of the "L-shaped mount" that protrudes from the bumper (3 nuts & bolts) and attach the bottom part of the "lower riser" to the "lower tiedown mount" (1 nut & bolt)
4) attach the "upper riser" on top of the "upper riser" (3 nuts & bolts)
5) repeat the process on the other side of the car
6) attach the airfoil on top of both "upper riser" pieces (2 nuts & bolts per side)

Now lets say you're done at the track and you want to uninstall the wing.

Here's the process to remove the wing and go back to stock "wingless" appearance:
1) remove the airfoil
2) remove the "upper riser"
3) remove the "lower riser"
4) remove the "L-shaped mount"
5) reinstall the "reverse light / reflector"
note: the "tiedown bracket" and "adapter mount" stay installed and are completely out of sight

JBF

iTrader: (13)

As far as I know, wings and spoilers that are affixed to the chassis rather than the rear decklid are preferred in some sanctions. Global Time attack definitely allows it.

As for smaller, local/regional sanctions, I think their concerns are more safety related vs performance. (per class)

theorie

iTrader: (31)

I'm definitely designing this wing for more of a time attack application, as I stated in the OP. People who street their cars and want to keep them looking nice, but want a wing to use ONLY when they're at the track (e.g. participating in a time attack event).

If you plan on participating in a competitive racing class and you have a dedicated track car, you probably don't care about drilling holes into your trunk lid.

JBF

iTrader: (13)

I'm sure if people wanted to keep them on their car, they'll figure out a way to have reflectors and reverse lights.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

If you REALLY needed a reflector/reverse light for street use, such as if you drive the car to/from the track, I'm sure you could rig something up with an external set of lights, like for trailers. Or you could figure out a way to store the wing/risers for the drive, and install when you get there.

I can't believe anyone would simply drive around on the street with this. If you're going to do that, just get a regular wing. The whole point is for guys who want to use a real wing at the track, but feel like a tool driving around with one on their car (like me).

theorie

iTrader: (31)

Actually the reverse light / reflector units are 2-pieces. The reverse light housing attaches to the back of the red reflector part, and comes off by unscrewing 2 small screws.

The plan is to have a tab on the side of the "lower riser" that would extend out and hold the reverse light in place after you install the riser. This way you can still have your rear reverse lights installed & functioning even when the wing is installed.



Exactly.

Dem3ntia

im interested in this for sure, but im running a ronin widebody and wonder if a gtc-500 wing could be used instead of the 300?

theorie

iTrader: (31)

You could really use any wing with these risers so long as the mounts attached to the underside of the airfoil are the same (47" apart).

If you are running the GTC-500 wing with the 47" mounts, then yes, it should fit these risers.

Flyweight

iTrader: (1)

Very interested...

I wonder how the balance of the car will be with just the rear wing and no front element to compliment it...thoughts?

It would be great to see this coupled with a new front lip that would help the front of the car and help the FD maintain its excellent mechanical balance.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Balance of the car will depend on a lot of factors—but splitters, more aggressive lips, canards, etc., are all currently available.

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

Peter I don't think anyone was suggesting they were going to run this on the street. They were confused as to whether they could still keep the the tail reflectors in place AND Tom's mounting assembly like he described at the beginning. Tom's detailed pics should clear this up with the answer being yes.

Hate to bring this up again but this belongs in the product development section. It's not fair to the other members and potential vendors so the mods should move this.

theorie

iTrader: (31)

It's just a product development thread. I'm not selling anything yet, I just mentioned that it could be a possibility. I did ask to see if people were interested in running a group buy, IF the part even proves successful after the prototype comes back and we do some track testing.

No different than your sleepy-eye popup development thread that was in this same section:
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...ersion-879394/

After the development on this wing is complete, and after the product is tested, and if I can get costs down based on volume, and if there is sufficient interest then I'll pay to run a GB.

Not sure why it's not "fair" for me to post this thread here since I'm not selling anything and not running a group buy.

Besides, the only reason it was moved back from the GB section was because the permissions of the forum were messed up and people couldn't post in the thread anymore.

Flyweight

iTrader: (1)

Below is some information from 949 Racing which sells the APR GTC300 wing for Miatas. They recommend additional front aero to balance out the car.

From 949racing.com:

This wing is about 2" wider and 4" longer cord than the standard GTC200. Recommended for V8 conversions, and forced induction cars making more than 300whp. Assuming your car is set up well to begin with, it may drop lap times by 2-3 sec on a 1:40+ road course. With this bad boy, you'll start to feel a distinct difference in grip as low as 45mph. Turns that require feathering the throttle at 65mph might now be WOT. Strongly recommended that you add some sort of front aero to balance it out, such as a 2-3" splitter, air dam, canards or all of the above. For cars below about 180whp the GTC200 will be a better compromise between downforce and drag.

Which size and how to tune it?

Always start with zero angle relative to the ground as measured in the center portion of the wing, add angle for the lower speed tracks or wet weather driving. The center portion of the wing should never be angled more than 10* positive (tilted forward) relative to the ground. The wing can even be set up for slightly negative angle up to about 5~8* (tilted up in front) for reduced drag and a bit less downforce. Never run the top surface of the wing any higher than your roof line. If running with no roof/soft top, its recommended to run the wing on the standard uprights, no 2.5" risers.

Technology and Construction

With a span 61 inches and a height of 13 inches, the GTC-300 is an adjustable wing that means serious business. The GTC-300 3D airfoil shape allows for optimal airflow that reduces drag yet supplies an effective amount of downforce. Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) analysis was performed on this wing to support validation of its aerodynamic design. The results of this analysis are available here.

Each GTC Series airfoil is composed of lightweight and durable carbon fiber composite. Supporting the carbon fiber airfoils are 10mm "aircraft grade" 6061 billet aluminum pedestals that come in a flat black powder coat finish."

Here is a picture of the air dam that 949racing claims balances out the much smaller APR GTC200.


...not exactly pretty...

The pics below give a few splitter ideas that may be of use.





While I am aware that there are a few splitter/canard/front lips currently available for the FD. I think it would be ideal to have a package that is balanced and designed together. I don't want to permanently add canards/non-stock lips/splitters to my stock front end FD just like I do not want to add a crazy permanent rear wing. Neither do I want to add aero if it is not balanced.

theorie

iTrader: (31)

Great idea actually. I want to also develop some "zero modifications"-required front-end aero to compliment this wing, but I don't know anyone who still has the stock front end...haha
Seems most people have aftermarket front ends which means you can't really design a universal part...I'll see what I can figure out though.

RENESISFD

iTrader: (13)

theorie

iTrader: (31)

OK just figured out a possible solution. Chatting with JhnRx7 about it. I want to get the wing done first, but I have a possible way to do some front aero that could be universal to any bumper...hmm

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

Tom, this is a product development thread and as such, should be moved to the "Group Buy and Product Development Interest' section. That's only appropriate right as you are doing product development? As this section gets much more exposure than most any other, that makes it unfair to the others that are doing product development also, including paying vendors as well.

As for the "Sleepy Eye" thread, I am in no way involved in bringing my "one off" solution to the market. That is SuperDan50 and I'd suspect he'd have no issues with moving anything he's posted into the Product Development section either. I'd like my posts to stay as I thought the forum would be interested in what I did.

I think what you guys are doing is pretty interesting and good work but it is clear the conversation belongs elsewhere.

theorie

iTrader: (31)

:rolls eyes:

Come on man, do you really need to harass me about everything I do on this forum?

I already stated that I tried to post in the PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT section but it wouldn't let me because the forum permissions are messed up. I even asked the mods to move the thread, which they did, but then it locked me and other people out from making posts in the thread because the forum permissions are messed up, so they moved it back here.

Stop crying about it and quit trying to derail the thread.