TNT Fuel Starve Eliminator for FD
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,202
Likes: 640
From: Murfreesboro TN
Here's the evolution of the TNT design in the quest for a bullet proof FD fuel starve eliminator for really high g autoX and track use. .
1. We started with the stock tank and the purchased plastic tray ( baffle) cover hoping to reduce fuel load by 50 lbs...run with 1/4 tank. FAIL...still had to run 3/4 tank to prevent fuel starve.
2. Next we modified our stock tank to a half tank and retained the tray cover. FAIL..still had to run at 3/4 tank to prevent starve. Did achieve a significant weight reduction but we were still concerned about fuel starve on long high g sweepers.
3. We built a custom 5 gallon tank with a center baffle, used the stock pump assembly bulkhead and mounted our Bosch 044 outside the tank ( under the black plastic DS dust cover which puts it a bit below the tank ). To our amazement we still had fuel starve under 3/4 tank.
4. Finally we designed a 2 liter collector tank fed from the return line and a check valve hoping to keep 2 liters of fuel always available to the pickup. It worked. We start with 5 gallons and regularly run the tank down to 1-2 gallons. See pics.
The TNT is the same design adapted to the stock FD tank.
Holler with questions.
1. We started with the stock tank and the purchased plastic tray ( baffle) cover hoping to reduce fuel load by 50 lbs...run with 1/4 tank. FAIL...still had to run 3/4 tank to prevent fuel starve.
2. Next we modified our stock tank to a half tank and retained the tray cover. FAIL..still had to run at 3/4 tank to prevent starve. Did achieve a significant weight reduction but we were still concerned about fuel starve on long high g sweepers.
3. We built a custom 5 gallon tank with a center baffle, used the stock pump assembly bulkhead and mounted our Bosch 044 outside the tank ( under the black plastic DS dust cover which puts it a bit below the tank ). To our amazement we still had fuel starve under 3/4 tank.
4. Finally we designed a 2 liter collector tank fed from the return line and a check valve hoping to keep 2 liters of fuel always available to the pickup. It worked. We start with 5 gallons and regularly run the tank down to 1-2 gallons. See pics.
The TNT is the same design adapted to the stock FD tank.
Holler with questions.
My take on (A): the amount of fuel entering the check valve equals the fuel consumed by the engine (consumed = supply-return). As long as slosh never exposes the ball diameter to an air pocket, then the "sump-tank" remains full, even if the main tanks isn't. Once the ball orifice sees air though (during LH turns), that changes and the TNT level probably starts dropping.
Here's an example of why understanding the concept matters. I propose that the ball valve should be as close to the center of the tank as possible rather than near the edge as is currently designed. Admittedly you only gain ~3", but just curious why you chose the corner closest to the edge of the tank for the ball-valve location?
Here's an example of why understanding the concept matters. I propose that the ball valve should be as close to the center of the tank as possible rather than near the edge as is currently designed. Admittedly you only gain ~3", but just curious why you chose the corner closest to the edge of the tank for the ball-valve location?
snip...
2). We think the TNT tank stays almost full "most of the time" due to (A) the return is adding fuel when not at full throttle and (B) the check valve is pressure actuated and we believe the constant slosh forces create a net positive pressure that pushes fuel into the TNT over-and-above the average level of the main tank.
Someday we would like to figure out how to video the inside tank action but for now we believe our autoX car experience confirms that the TNT concept works.
Hope this makes since.
HPP
2). We think the TNT tank stays almost full "most of the time" due to (A) the return is adding fuel when not at full throttle and (B) the check valve is pressure actuated and we believe the constant slosh forces create a net positive pressure that pushes fuel into the TNT over-and-above the average level of the main tank.
Someday we would like to figure out how to video the inside tank action but for now we believe our autoX car experience confirms that the TNT concept works.
Hope this makes since.
HPP
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,202
Likes: 640
From: Murfreesboro TN
"Here's an example of why understanding the concept matters. I propose that the ball valve should be as close to the center of the tank as possible rather than near the edge as is currently designed. Admittedly you only gain ~3", but just curious why you chose the corner closest to the edge of the tank for the ball-valve location?"
Thank you Cone Crushr.....excellent point and it is feasible to locate the CV in the center. It was there in an earlier design but changed when we were trying to fit a sock inside the TNT but that has now changed with the use of the Russel filter outside the TNT. We will seriously consider a center location.
Keep the feedback coming.
Thank you Cone Crushr.....excellent point and it is feasible to locate the CV in the center. It was there in an earlier design but changed when we were trying to fit a sock inside the TNT but that has now changed with the use of the Russel filter outside the TNT. We will seriously consider a center location.
Keep the feedback coming.
I was unclear, I mean consider moving the ball-valve to the 'inboard' corner of your surge-tank (opposite side) so that it's as near as possible to the centerline of the car.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,202
Likes: 640
From: Murfreesboro TN
To be sure we are on the same page, here's a pic looking down into the main tank...pic right is the car drivers side.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,202
Likes: 640
From: Murfreesboro TN
One of our ongoing debates has been which is more important...centering the CV or the pick-up tube(s) in the TNT....but again as you pointed we are dealing with a couple of inches one way or the other (the TNT is 4" side-to-side). Likely no difference with the really important factor being having a CAPTIVE near 2 liters of fuel always available to the pump(s).
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,202
Likes: 640
From: Murfreesboro TN
Updated INTERESTED in GB LIST:
Feel free to edit as needed:
1. AzEKnightz...............CJM dual Walbro 255's(not ready now but later)
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
NOTE...".in-tank" tells us that your pump(s) is mounted on the OEM or CJM stalk as opposed to an external (outside the tank) mount. So far all on the
interested list have in-tank pumps.
Feel free to edit as needed:
1. AzEKnightz...............CJM dual Walbro 255's(not ready now but later)
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
NOTE...".in-tank" tells us that your pump(s) is mounted on the OEM or CJM stalk as opposed to an external (outside the tank) mount. So far all on the
interested list have in-tank pumps.
1. AzEKnightz...............CJM dual Walbro 255's(not ready now but later)
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
1. AzEKnightz...............CJM dual Walbro 255's(not ready now but later)
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump in-tank
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump in-tank
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,202
Likes: 640
From: Murfreesboro TN
Progress report......our welder has been jammed for the past two weeks so finishing the first two units( one single pump the other dual) has been delayed to next week.Will keep you posted.
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: Australia
Interested 
1. AzEKnightz...............CJM dual Walbro 255's(not ready now but later)
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump in-tank
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
14. Poop2003.....................Single Sard 280L in tank
1. AzEKnightz...............CJM dual Walbro 255's(not ready now but later)
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump in-tank
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
14. Poop2003.....................Single Sard 280L in tank
Interested
1. AzEKnightz...............CJM dual Walbro 255's(not ready now but later)
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump in-tank
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
14. Poop2003.....................Single Sard 280L in tank
15. SpAm@FC.....................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
I'm in for CJM dual Bosch
Make this happen, that's looking like a very nice product! Would be great not to have to mount a surgetank with lines inside the cabin
1. AzEKnightz...............CJM dual Walbro 255's(not ready now but later)
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump in-tank
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
14. Poop2003.....................Single Sard 280L in tank
15. SpAm@FC.....................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
I'm in for CJM dual Bosch
Make this happen, that's looking like a very nice product! Would be great not to have to mount a surgetank with lines inside the cabin
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,202
Likes: 640
From: Murfreesboro TN
I'm in for CJM dual Bosch Make this happen, that's looking like a very nice product! Would be great not to have to mount a surgetank with lines inside the cabin
This product will happen. Have had delays with our ace welder (very busy) but should have two test units made next week...one single,one dual. The dual pump unit will be tested by a nearby FD drag racer (very very fast car) and if the TNT satisfies this application we will start making both dual and single units as fast as we can.
Will keep you posted weekly.
HPP
This product will happen. Have had delays with our ace welder (very busy) but should have two test units made next week...one single,one dual. The dual pump unit will be tested by a nearby FD drag racer (very very fast car) and if the TNT satisfies this application we will start making both dual and single units as fast as we can.
Will keep you posted weekly.
HPP
Interested
1. AzEKnightz...............CJM dual Walbro 255's(not ready now but later)
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump in-tank
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
14. Poop2003.....................Single Sard 280L in tank
15. SpAm@FC.....................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
16. Sandrock .......................Single bosch 044 in tank.
I'm in for CJM dual Bosch Make this happen, that's looking like a very nice product! Would be great not to have to mount a surgetank with lines inside the cabin [/QUOTE]
1. AzEKnightz...............CJM dual Walbro 255's(not ready now but later)
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump in-tank
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
14. Poop2003.....................Single Sard 280L in tank
15. SpAm@FC.....................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
16. Sandrock .......................Single bosch 044 in tank.
I'm in for CJM dual Bosch
Make this happen, that's looking like a very nice product! Would be great not to have to mount a surgetank with lines inside the cabin [/QUOTE]
Interested
1. AzEKnightz...............CJM dual Walbro 255's(not ready now but later)
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump in-tank
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
14. Poop2003.....................Single Sard 280L in tank
15. SpAm@FC.....................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
16. Sandrock .......................Single bosch 044 in tank.
17. perf0rmance .................Single Supra in tank (can switch to bosch 044 if preferred)
1. AzEKnightz...............CJM dual Walbro 255's(not ready now but later)
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump in-tank
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
14. Poop2003.....................Single Sard 280L in tank
15. SpAm@FC.....................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
16. Sandrock .......................Single bosch 044 in tank.
17. perf0rmance .................Single Supra in tank (can switch to bosch 044 if preferred)
1. AzEKnightz...............CJM dual Walbro 255's(not ready now but later)
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump in-tank
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
14. Poop2003.....................Single Sard 280L in tank
15. SpAm@FC.....................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
16. Sandrock .......................Single bosch 044 in tank.
17. perf0rmance .................Single Supra in tank (can switch to bosch 044 if preferred)
18. JBF...............................Single Aeromotive 340 in tank
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump in-tank
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
14. Poop2003.....................Single Sard 280L in tank
15. SpAm@FC.....................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
16. Sandrock .......................Single bosch 044 in tank.
17. perf0rmance .................Single Supra in tank (can switch to bosch 044 if preferred)
18. JBF...............................Single Aeromotive 340 in tank
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: Finland
1. AzEKnightz...............CJM dual Walbro 255's(not ready now but later)
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump in-tank
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
14. Poop2003.....................Single Sard 280L in tank
15. SpAm@FC.....................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
16. Sandrock .......................Single bosch 044 in tank.
17. perf0rmance .................Single Supra in tank (can switch to bosch 044 if preferred)
18. JBF...............................Single Aeromotive 340 in tank
19. STA..............................Single Walbro 485
2. Smokey The Talon.......in-tank
3. FC3S1991..................CJM dual Walbro
4. Genzer.......................Rotary Performance pump
5.SK8WORLD...................Dual Supra pumps in-tank
6. R-R-RX7......................Single Bosch 044 intank
7. ROVERS.....................Single supra pump intank
8. Grinch........................ Single Walbro 485
9. Mannykiller.................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
10. Chon........................pump in-tank
11.Vrx8............................Dual Aeromotive 340 (depends on drag results)
12. $lacker ..................... RP Competition Fuel Pump in-tank
13. RCCAZ1......................Single Bosch 044 in tank
14. Poop2003.....................Single Sard 280L in tank
15. SpAm@FC.....................CJM dual Bosch 044's In-tank
16. Sandrock .......................Single bosch 044 in tank.
17. perf0rmance .................Single Supra in tank (can switch to bosch 044 if preferred)
18. JBF...............................Single Aeromotive 340 in tank
19. STA..............................Single Walbro 485