rotor motor- thanks for all the info... really sounds like you know your stuff, good to know about a company

However, imo, its a little un-tasteful to bash another company. there will always be competition, some better, some worse. but atleast the FD community is big enough that we have people willing to make parts for our cars.

 

+111

 

No problems here man. I dont blame you. I'm holding out for this thing if it goes down again. I would rather spend my money once on a better part rather than having to keep buying the same part a hundred times. If this thing is anywhere near the quality of the passenger door handle, it will be worth the wait. It seems you guys really appreciate the car, and it shows in your work.

 

Heath,

Now I don't have a personal issue with you or SBG, and in fact I am happy that you guys do quality products for the community. I will also say that I am stoked that I have a door handle now as I have SBG to thank for that. So please take this as constructive criticism: You need to be more professional. So far you have attacked the competition, those who hadn't paid, and the community as a whole. All for a part which you claim you don't make any money on. To be quite honest given your discontent I am very weary of that statement.

I can certainly understand and appreciate SBG making a part for the benefit of the community as it shows passion and willingness to provide support for us. What I don't get is the animosity. From a business stand point it doesn’t make sense to get upset about a part that you are not making a profit on. In fact, if SBG was only doing it for the community I would expect the opposite. I would expect that the company be content that someone else was stepping in given that time is money, and it allows you guys to allocate the limited resources for ventures that actually turn a profit. But that's not the case so of course it makes me wonder about actual profit margins that are being claimed. But truth be told, I don't care if you make a profit off the forum, SGB is a company that needs to pay bills. You provide a product that I need and if I like the price then I purchase it no questions asked. From where I stand you can make as much as profit as people are willing to pay. But I take issue in feeling deceived though. I’m not saying you deceived us but you certainly planted that seed.

To continue as of why my payment wasn’t sent in (just yet). Well it wasn't because I was being cheap as $50 bucks is nothing to me given that I am en electrical engineer with 14 years experience. No reason being is that this GB had always been in danger of not happening hence I put my name on both lists as a precaution. My main concern is that this lid gets made and given that not anyone has made a product, it's a wait a see situation.

In one hand, I have an unknown vendor who copied the idea of a well known vendor and by going with the new guy I would be gambling as their product hasn't been seen. In the other hand, I have a well known vendor with the ***** to step up but their GB may never happen so if I send in a payment now and the other vendor sells out well I don't get a lid that I have being dying for years. Get it now?

Trust your public. I can tell you that given both options right in front of me: The choice of a less expensive lid from an unknown vendor who swooped in out of nowhere vs. a well known vendor with the original idea but who is slightly higher, I'd go with the higher priced one. Out of principle, loyalty, and originality. Now bad mouthing the public and the other vendor puts a bad taste in my mouth. Not bad enough to ever buy from you but certainly bad enough that if there are other choices out there I just might reconsider my stance on which campany I go with.

M-

 

Thanks for the constructive criticism but I've never "bad-mouthed" or bashed the competition (especially by name). I have however described why the part "the competition" is making is significantly cheaper, described the casting methods used, and the design flaws that are not addressed like the roll pin issue, let alone the texture of the lid surface. The way your post comes off it's like we're comparing 2 companies with the same part, when if you take the time to understand the processes they are using to create the part, and the lack of costly machine work to fix the current design flaws, you'll see that the two pieces are not equivalent. The process we use is costly, but churns out production quality parts. Also, I don't think I've said anything in an unprofessional manner, or even typed a name associated with their business . Would it be more "professional" to simply ignore the fact that they exist entirely?

Regarding your belief that we would make money off this: Unfortunately your lack of faith in us won't let you believe that we were doing this part absolutely and completely at cost . I'm sorry you don't believe it, but when I add up the machining fixture cost, the cost of the machine work, the rubber mold cost, cost to make each ceramic shell, the casting charges, removing the gates and bead blasting, coating, boxes to pack them, shipping, paypal, and hardware... no we stood to break completely even once the quantity reached around 60. Sorry you don't believe it, but it's the god honest truth... this is the cost of making a production grade/quality piece for low volume parts. This aint a civic and we're not selling these in the thousands, the numbers are in the tens

You're also wrong about our "business" model. This isn't really a money making venture for us (which I've repeated many times in many threads), and on a number of parts (such as the headlights) all I get out of it is a ton of labor hours to work in a cold garage consuming all my spare time at the equivalent pay of less than a barista at starbucks. What? I basically volunteer my time for a little cash on the side? Yeah, I do. Are we a business? I guess so, but it's more along the lines of a hobby for us. I guess that's what's lost in the capitalist schema, the fact that someone would do a job because they love something, not just for money. Do we make money off of some of our parts? Yeah we do, but many we break even or make very little... and the little I do make simply gets turned into FD parts from other vendors for my own FD.

I do this on the side of my real life because I enjoy it, and love my FD, not because I think we're gonna get rich. It's a hard concept to believe when you live in a society that is driven strictly by money. I'm not trying to insult you or anything... but I definitely felt like I had to defend why I'm here cause it obviously came into question.

Cheers,
Heath

 

Not speaking for Heath here, but speaking as a founder of SBG and a non-profit-sharing member of the SBG group...

I can quite definitively assure you that we were preparing to turn the map lid at what effectively would equal a loss after all the time to go through the process of developing the part, packaging and distributing. Obviously making a profit is always beneficial as a driver for future product development, but that’s truly not what SBG is all about.

I think that people on the forum tend to overestimate the actual size of the company based on the quality of the products Dan & Heath have produced, which can be taken as a complement to their attention to detail, but the company is actually quite small. The headlight kits, door handles, oil cooler kits (which I am proud to have helped develop), brake lines, etc, are all extremely well-designed and professionally produced products for a car that we all share a common love for. The truth of the matter (and I hope Dan & Heath don’t mind me sharing this) is that SBG was just a for-fun name that Dan and I came up with for our home garage years ago and we started developing oil-cooler kits for fun. Heath later became involved, assisting us through with development of oil-cooler brackets for 99+ front fascias, and the rest is history. I unfortunately had to step away after moving to Las Vegas, but Dan & Heath have continued to develop new products and produce great results, and I am immensely proud of them.

The profit margins on all of the products produced by SakeBomb Garage have always been very slim, because quite simply put, it’s our hobby. Heath’s frustration is mirrored by my own opinions of the current RX-7 community and I am glad he spoke up. The current state of the community is poor, and unfortunately it seems that the cars we love are being slowly beaten to death by a younger generation of owners with shallower pockets, and a lack of attention to detail. Perhaps we’re just getting grumpy as we approach our late 20’s (haha) but these youngsters picking up these cars and running them into the ground is frustrating to watch sometimes, especially for people like us three who pride ourselves on the quality of our work and who love these cars.

It’s not that we are “bashing” specific products or companies, but we feel that if we’re going to spend the time to make a product that is going to be useful to a number of our RX-7 brethren then it should be a quality piece and something we are proud to associate ourselves with. Because of that, production costs go up, and the (already small) profits go down. With very little capital to fund our own inventory of production parts, Dan & Heath rely on group buys to fund the initial costs and kick off production of new parts. You assume that because Heath was frustrated with the shortage of members needed to get this product off the ground solely because SBG is missing out on potential profits, but let me remind you that assumptions can be dangerous.

SBG refuses to make compromises in the quality of the production of its parts and makes every effort to price them competitively. Heath’s (and SBG as a whole) frustration comes not from the lack of interest in OUR product, but from a lack of interest in QUALITY products from the community as a whole. It’s the same frustration we feel when someone looking for an HID light kit claims ours is overpriced and then buys one for $50.00 off eBay because they just want the part, at the cheapest price available, without a true understanding in the difference in quality. We’re not upset with that person because we missed out on a sale; we’re upset because individuals with mindsets like that don’t share the same love and passion for this hobby as we do.

 

I’m wasn’t trying to get into a get into a debate, I was just showing what I saw from a third party perspective. As you can see I wasn’t the only one that perceived it that way. Now obviously you didn’t mean to come off like that but to some of us it did.

I don’t get what’s so funny. Why not? We are smart enough to figure out what’s going on. Sometimes taking the highroad pays off, at least it does in my book.

I explained to you the why that seed was planted. I stated that I don’t care if you do, but you obviously care that we know that you don’t so use my original intent and reflect what exactly made me go down that path.

It seems that you take this personal. Why would the lack of interest in a product be a reflection of your company? As you said my “lack of faith in us”… If anything you guys have shown that you deliver.

I believe you and it’s commendable. Given that take my previous post as constructive as possible as like I said I don’t have anything against you guys.

Heath if I have insulted you: I apologize as that wasn't my intent at all.

Elliot

 

Well put from both of you.

I would say more but it would only cause more trouble haha. Needless to say Montego (and apparently muibubbles) aren't alone in this.

 

Mmm, I can see how it is a difficult situation with competition, but I think you guys need to be more confident in the process of selling your products as I've noticed you guys post in all the competition's threads (and note I did not say you guys lack any confidence in the products, because it's easy to see that you guys stand by them. I really like all the quality goodies you offer, I've really come to respect your shop for what you do for this community, as well as all your time and effort.

As a new owner it is a bit difficult to justify the cost of the map pocket lid, because with a stock car there are more important issues that I need to be focus on. That said, if the GB went through, I probably would have tagged on at the end like I normally do. I know you guys want to get these projects done fast, and move on to the next, but perhaps more patience would be helpful. I think this GB was closed two times before this final decision -- it causes confusion and creates loss of interest although maybe with more time something would have eventually surfaced.

I don't know your sources for the molding and manufacturing, but perhaps there are slightly more competitive rates or at least minimum quantity requirements available (easily said, harder done, I know)? Or perhaps a decent price increase with less people subscribed to the GB? I'm really talking out of my *** with these suggestions but it's late and I'm kind of tired. Brain storming if you will...

Anyway, I just wanted to comment on the situation but don't mean to disrespect or spark any ill will.

Also, you guys do realize everyone is saving up for new tail lights for the tail light GB right? Do me a favor and try to space those out from the FD headlight GB, because I do want both.

 

Previous post already summed up the problem, which the cast lid does not address; therefore it's an inferior product and a band-aid for (yet another) flawed design from Mazduh

 

Yeah, the original designers at mazda did a great job on many aspects of the car (including the interior). Just compare to the other cars from the time (supra, nsx, etc) they've all got flat panels, parts-bin buttons, simplistic unenthusiastic 90's designs. Mazda on the other hand spent a ton of time with skilled designers building in amazing performance, beautiful curves, unique/ergonomic controls, and making everything inside sensual and focused 100% on the driver experience. You don't feel like you are in any old car when you sit in the FD, you feel like you are sitting in a refined cockpit! Nearly everything in the car was designed around the driver experience.... but by the time the penny pinchers in mazda got through with it, many of the parts had to be toned down to meet the monetary restrictions to actually bring this car to market. So parts of the cars quality were cheapened.

The gauge cluster is a great example of the essence of the FD design... a ton of thought was put into the intertwined design of that tach/gearbox/and turbos so that the driver could intuitively tell (simply by looking at the tach) how the car was going to behave. Mazda put blood sweat and tears into the FD... this is truely design at it's best: The stock twins transition to full boost at 4500RPM (12 o-clock, straight up on the tach) which is handy to know, ok, but the gearing was set (for most gears) that if you rode out the previous gear to redline and shifted (even a beep to remind you) the next gear would drop in at what??? You guessed it, 4500RPM! (full power,full boost). So all the driver has to think is, redline (beep), shift, redline (beep) shift, redline (beep) shift.... and you make max power. Simply represented at 12 and 3 o-clock positions on the tack. A brilliantly engineered design, ******* amazing. That took many departments thinking on the same page to come up with that little trick. The FD is more than the sum of it's parts.

Anyway back to the penny pinchers at mazda, little did you know that the original designers/engineers of the FD concept designed the car to make power 1000 RPM higher!! But the suits at mazda said, no no, we can't build the motor cheap enough to handle the extra 1K RPM... knock the redline down. Don't believe me here's proof






Back on topic, the designers did an astounding job with the car, but to get it to market it needed to be made "cheaper". Parts like the door lid suffered. To make it cheap to assemble, mazda used those god awful roll pins with a lose plastic pivot, and a very flimsy mount in the lid itself.

I've examined between 12-15 failed lids, and the cause of every failure? The slop in the roll pin brings the pivot point off axis and snaps the mount in the lid. I've also examined failed "fixes" where JB weld was used to rigidly fix the pivot point. Guess what happens? The slop in the roll pin (once again) causes the pivot of the lid to get off axis, and since the lid no longer takes the stress, there is force placed on the thick steel closing spring, the tiny screw mounts it attaches to, and the rest of the map pocket assembly. What happens in the long run is the whole assembly begins to disintegrate from the stress. The lid failing is the SYMPTOM, not the cause! Fixing just the lid so it does not break only transfers that stress to the rest of the assembly!!! and remember, that assembly is also, you guessed it, no longer available from mazda. Like I said, I care about the car... sorry if I've come off as unprofessional but I'm not here to be a professional, I'm here to fix the parts of the FD that need it.


-Heath


BTW completely off topic before release... the 93 tan and red interiors didn't stop at the doors it was the entire interior!!


For anyone that has not read the Yamaguchi book on the development of the FD I highly suggest it. You will develop a new appreciation for your cars and realize why I get so huffy-puffy about cheap parts on this thing. When the FD was designed, it was intended to be world class perfection!

 

We can all agree :

No one claimed that the two products were identical in quality. In my case I just want a lid ANY lid lol... I'm notas I've had to deal with a hole in my door for 11 years. I've even considered getting a replacement stocker and gluing it shut.

The funny thing is that SBG is the well known vendor with the reputation to back them up and IMO they have nothing to be defensive about. Given the constant remarks about the nameless competition was unecessary and tacky.

Heath,

That is actually a compliment man. It basically says that your products speak for themselves.

 

Good to hear Yeah it's funny that we ended up as a vendor, let alone one that people seem to know. We're literally just two guys, and a garage (ok three, charlie is a silent member but hes got a couple CYM's in there with Scrubby).

 

If you put your name on a list for a product like this and can't come up with a paltry $250 it's pretty sad - the members who did so should be ashamed - I would never put my name on a group buy list that I didn't intend to pay in full immediately

 

Sometimes Heath gets a little overprotective and I have to calm him down. It's usually best to let everyone go about their business, people will make their own decisions. We appreciate the kind words


While I don't disagree with you, it doesn't surprise me. Like I told you via PM, we are looking at other options to replace the map pocket lid which may actually turn out better then our original idea.

-Dan

 

All refunds for the map pocket lids have been sent out. If anyone who submitted payment has NOT received their refund please let us know.

I came across this quote on the supra forums today and it made me laugh, so I thought I'd repost it since it kinda sums up my thoughts on the FD "market" now a days.

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."

Cheers
Heath

 

I think montego hit all my points I didnt voice spot on and agree with his statements.

Heath, you continue to impress me with your knowledge

Given I haven't read through all the pages, I may be a bit mis informed. But from my understanding, you claim its not the map lid that is the problem and it is the actual roll pins in the compartment? If so, shouldn't you be addressing that? I'm confused, it sounds like you claimed the map lid isn't the problem but you are producing map lids?

Can you please clarify?

 

^I believe what he meant was that the lid breaking is one problem, but another problem is the roll pin, and might as well fix them both at once, know what I mean?

 

Ok here's the deal... the tolerances in the roll pins and pivots are really sloppy (so it can be easily assembled). Because of the slop in the pivot point, the lid doesnt necissarily rotate around that pin perfectly, sometimes it's a little off... and when its off, it puts force laterally on that pin (think of a taking the leg of a chair and pushing on it sideways... you break the mount for that leg). Well hole in the lid itself for the roll pin is really thin and flimsy so the lid mount breaks first. Fix the mount for that, and now you transfer that force to the rest of the box and the screws that hold the "spring" that allows it to close. Over time all those plastic pieces start to break too (once you fix the lid itself the forces from misalignment, and that heavy metal "spring" just push elsewhere on the whole assembly).

Basically to fix it you need to make damn sure that the lid rotates PERFECTLY around that pivot point, and THEN fix the lid. Again, to make assembly easy mazda left the tolerances really sloppy... this combined with the thin/brittle plastic is the problem. The broken mounts for the pin on the lid itself is the symptom, not the cause. It's like painting over rust, or taking pain killers for a broken bone
-Heath

 

We never ended up making this because it was produced by a competing company using a cheaper casting method, so the interest faded away

 

i know im super late on this but do you have any idea on the company that ended up making similiar ones

 

I really wanted one but after reading a few post doesn't seem I'm going to have one after all.

 

The problem is another company came in and offered "the same" for a few dollars less. The parts did not fit well, they bailed on the FD community in a few months time, and we lost the volume of members needed to make the molds. So at the end of the day, we're still here but we can't provide the parts the FD community wants because members were lured away for a slightly cheaper priced part.

Without volume sales we can't make the parts people want... and we have to be able to sell enough to stay afloat as a company. These fly by night companies don't have to deal with the ramifications of long term customer care, or any overhead whatsoever, and most of our profits are dumped back into R/D for new parts. It's just an unfortunate situation which is why we're trying to expand to other chassis. A dollar isn't just a dollar for us, it's a vote for SBG to continue making parts for the FD community.


-Heath

 

The guys and products at SBG are first rate and I have nothing but gratitude and admiration for them.

 

I am assuming it would not be cheaper to make new plastic lids?