Water instead of ATF for decarboning
12-23-01, 03:46 PM
#52
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Who gives a ssshht guys. Back to the mane topic of water treatment. I tried it in my REPU which as an engine with less than 10k on it and it did not blow up. I couldn't realy tell much of a difference and my exhaust did not seem to get any hotter. then I tried it on my rx-3 sp which I just bought and I think has a lot of carbon in it, did not blow up and I think it runs a little smoother. My advice is that it doesn't hurt to try somthing new and it's easy. Mabey do the h20 treatment every oil change or somthing. I understand both of your points. And this is to the honda guy, I have built a few of these rotary engines and know how to port them street and peripheral adn consider my self pretty knowledgable and I see crap posts on here all the time by people that are not informaed and have never even seen the inside of a rotary and my advice to you is that to them they THINK they know what they are talking about. You just need to take it all in stride and understand that there is more good that comes out of the forum than bad. Any ways I hope we all learned one important thing from this thread and that is water does offer cheap fast engine cleaning although it might not be perfect does definitaly help.
CJG
CJG
12-24-01, 05:22 PM
#53
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Originally posted by Rotortuner
Who gives a ssshht guys. Back to the mane topic of water treatment. I tried it in my REPU which as an engine with less than 10k on it and it did not blow up. I couldn't realy tell much of a difference and my exhaust did not seem to get any hotter. then I tried it on my rx-3 sp which I just bought and I think has a lot of carbon in it, did not blow up and I think it runs a little smoother. My advice is that it doesn't hurt to try somthing new and it's easy. Mabey do the h20 treatment every oil change or somthing. I understand both of your points. And this is to the honda guy, I have built a few of these rotary engines and know how to port them street and peripheral adn consider my self pretty knowledgable and I see crap posts on here all the time by people that are not informaed and have never even seen the inside of a rotary and my advice to you is that to them they THINK they know what they are talking about. You just need to take it all in stride and understand that there is more good that comes out of the forum than bad. Any ways I hope we all learned one important thing from this thread and that is water does offer cheap fast engine cleaning although it might not be perfect does definitaly help.
CJG
Who gives a ssshht guys. Back to the mane topic of water treatment. I tried it in my REPU which as an engine with less than 10k on it and it did not blow up. I couldn't realy tell much of a difference and my exhaust did not seem to get any hotter. then I tried it on my rx-3 sp which I just bought and I think has a lot of carbon in it, did not blow up and I think it runs a little smoother. My advice is that it doesn't hurt to try somthing new and it's easy. Mabey do the h20 treatment every oil change or somthing. I understand both of your points. And this is to the honda guy, I have built a few of these rotary engines and know how to port them street and peripheral adn consider my self pretty knowledgable and I see crap posts on here all the time by people that are not informaed and have never even seen the inside of a rotary and my advice to you is that to them they THINK they know what they are talking about. You just need to take it all in stride and understand that there is more good that comes out of the forum than bad. Any ways I hope we all learned one important thing from this thread and that is water does offer cheap fast engine cleaning although it might not be perfect does definitaly help.
CJG
12-24-01, 06:00 PM
#54
Old [Sch|F]ool
ATF works better than water IMO because the engine needs to be running for water to work. You can't buy a "dead" engine from the junkyard for $100, soak the insides with WATER for several days, and expect it to de-clog the seal grooves so that the engine will run. Nope, you use ATF to soak the engine.
Also IMO, you shouldn't need to ATF an engine that already runs... it is my inderstanding that it is a method of deflooding engines or freeing stuck seals to bring "dead" engines back to life. Of course the whole idea is to keep it from happening in the first place... which means try to get more highway driving than city, keep your ignition system in good condition, don't run too rich, and (this is again IMO) eliminate the OMP and use premix exclusively... motor oil isn't designed to burn cleanly, while premix oil is. "What about boingers that burn oil..?" They carbon up too, you should see some of the nasty carbon that you have to remove from an oil-burning piston engine, even one that burns less oil than a rotary does normally. Audi has a deflood procedure for the 1.8t that is suspisciously like what us FC owners have known for years... why do they flood? According to the TSB, carbon lodges the piston rings away from the cylinder. Why do they carbon up... they suck oil.
I've noticed my engine runs worse after I try decarbonizing with water or carb cleaner, and it runs better if I dump a lil' MMO in the gas tank, about a 300:1 ratio with the gasoline.
Also IMO, you shouldn't need to ATF an engine that already runs... it is my inderstanding that it is a method of deflooding engines or freeing stuck seals to bring "dead" engines back to life. Of course the whole idea is to keep it from happening in the first place... which means try to get more highway driving than city, keep your ignition system in good condition, don't run too rich, and (this is again IMO) eliminate the OMP and use premix exclusively... motor oil isn't designed to burn cleanly, while premix oil is. "What about boingers that burn oil..?" They carbon up too, you should see some of the nasty carbon that you have to remove from an oil-burning piston engine, even one that burns less oil than a rotary does normally. Audi has a deflood procedure for the 1.8t that is suspisciously like what us FC owners have known for years... why do they flood? According to the TSB, carbon lodges the piston rings away from the cylinder. Why do they carbon up... they suck oil.
I've noticed my engine runs worse after I try decarbonizing with water or carb cleaner, and it runs better if I dump a lil' MMO in the gas tank, about a 300:1 ratio with the gasoline.
01-02-02, 06:27 AM
#56
Super Newbie
I also much prefer ATF, mainly for the same reasons peejay stated. I like to let my engines sit overnight so I KNOW there was sufficent time for the ATF to soak in. Plus, I can't bring myself to let my running engine ingest water
01-04-02, 10:02 PM
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Originally posted by Felix Wankel
I also much prefer ATF, mainly for the same reasons peejay stated. I like to let my engines sit overnight so I KNOW there was sufficent time for the ATF to soak in. Plus, I can't bring myself to let my running engine ingest water
I also much prefer ATF, mainly for the same reasons peejay stated. I like to let my engines sit overnight so I KNOW there was sufficent time for the ATF to soak in. Plus, I can't bring myself to let my running engine ingest water
CJG
02-07-07, 11:31 PM
#61
taken from:
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/3r...injection.html
When talking about rotary engines, carbon buildup is a common problem brought up. I have a writeup elsewhere in the tech section of internal engine damage pics, showing the effects of carbon buildup. A good way to combat this harmful effect is to inject water into a running engine as a matter of maintenance (note that I am not referring to water injection as a method to assist tuning and combat detonation, but rather as a maintenance procedure). By allowing an idling engine to injest a small amount of water, it hits the rotor faces and turns to steam, cleaning off carbon as it does. The more regularly you perform the maintenance, the cleaner your engine will remain. The procedure (I believe) was originally brought to light by Rob @ Pineapple racing, so please note that I’m not trying to take credit for this, only spreading the information for use by individuals.
Note that this should in no way harm an engine in good health. Water doesn’t combust, but it doesn’t harm any internals or sensors such as plugs or 02 sensors either. The engine will misfire and stumble during the time water is injected, this is normal. You will have to apply throttle to keep the engine above 3000rpm during the injection.
To perform this, I use a gallon jug of water and a long vacuum hose, say 3 feet. Though this is different for nearly every year and model, the underlying goal is to find 1 or 2 vacuum nipples on the intake manifolds after throttle body, preferably on the lower intake manifold so that the water can run straight down into the block. You want to feed both front and rear rotors evenly…generally you have 4 intake runners, 2 for the front, 2 for the back. Some engines have one nipple that can feed both (s4 turbos, for example, have one above the BAC valve that is evenly split between F and R primary runners). Some engines (fd’s and s5 na’s for example) have 2 separate nipples that can be teed together externally (vacuum hose and tee) to evenly feed both rotors.
With the engine running, remove the vacuum cap or lines that used to cover the nipple you’re using. You might have to apply throttle, so the engine doesn’t die due to a vacuum leak. Insert your hose(s) onto the nipples, and bend the hose somewhere in the middle by hand so that it seals off the air intake. Now, dip the end of the hose into the water at the bottom of the jug. Either grab the throttle linkage and rev the engine up, or have an assistant hold the throttle for you, above 3500 or so. Release your crimp on the hose, letting the engine vacuum suck water in. The engine will begin to shake and misfire, apply throttle as necessary to hold 3-4krpm and keep the engine from dying.
Expect a lot of steam from the exhaust. This is normal. I let the engine drink the whole gallon at once. When it’s done, it’ll begin to clear up slowly, and you can gradually let off the throttle and replace the original vacuum hoses/caps.
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/3r...injection.html
When talking about rotary engines, carbon buildup is a common problem brought up. I have a writeup elsewhere in the tech section of internal engine damage pics, showing the effects of carbon buildup. A good way to combat this harmful effect is to inject water into a running engine as a matter of maintenance (note that I am not referring to water injection as a method to assist tuning and combat detonation, but rather as a maintenance procedure). By allowing an idling engine to injest a small amount of water, it hits the rotor faces and turns to steam, cleaning off carbon as it does. The more regularly you perform the maintenance, the cleaner your engine will remain. The procedure (I believe) was originally brought to light by Rob @ Pineapple racing, so please note that I’m not trying to take credit for this, only spreading the information for use by individuals.
Note that this should in no way harm an engine in good health. Water doesn’t combust, but it doesn’t harm any internals or sensors such as plugs or 02 sensors either. The engine will misfire and stumble during the time water is injected, this is normal. You will have to apply throttle to keep the engine above 3000rpm during the injection.
To perform this, I use a gallon jug of water and a long vacuum hose, say 3 feet. Though this is different for nearly every year and model, the underlying goal is to find 1 or 2 vacuum nipples on the intake manifolds after throttle body, preferably on the lower intake manifold so that the water can run straight down into the block. You want to feed both front and rear rotors evenly…generally you have 4 intake runners, 2 for the front, 2 for the back. Some engines have one nipple that can feed both (s4 turbos, for example, have one above the BAC valve that is evenly split between F and R primary runners). Some engines (fd’s and s5 na’s for example) have 2 separate nipples that can be teed together externally (vacuum hose and tee) to evenly feed both rotors.
With the engine running, remove the vacuum cap or lines that used to cover the nipple you’re using. You might have to apply throttle, so the engine doesn’t die due to a vacuum leak. Insert your hose(s) onto the nipples, and bend the hose somewhere in the middle by hand so that it seals off the air intake. Now, dip the end of the hose into the water at the bottom of the jug. Either grab the throttle linkage and rev the engine up, or have an assistant hold the throttle for you, above 3500 or so. Release your crimp on the hose, letting the engine vacuum suck water in. The engine will begin to shake and misfire, apply throttle as necessary to hold 3-4krpm and keep the engine from dying.
Expect a lot of steam from the exhaust. This is normal. I let the engine drink the whole gallon at once. When it’s done, it’ll begin to clear up slowly, and you can gradually let off the throttle and replace the original vacuum hoses/caps.
02-15-07, 06:01 PM
#62
Rotary Enthusiast
SO much fuss over nothing!
water decarbonizing is as old as the damn infernal conbustion engine, I ,myself, was taught by fast operating USED CAR LOTS, back in the 1950s, great way for smoothing out an old clanker, get the engine warm first, then take off the air filter and pour a quart of COLD water slowly down the carb, rpm up around 3000. another way we used on old peoples cars was to take them out and hold it wide open in 1st gear for about 30 seconds, that one always scared me tho.
11-23-07, 12:52 AM
#64
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Making water flamable with things found round the home
My only real experience with water decarbonizing was accidental: I found that the cleanest sections of a cylinder head I removed were the ones near a head gasket leak that was sucking in coolant. And while the blasting effect of steam is certainly the major contributor to the cleaning effect, I would be certain that a small part of the water is actually chemically changed and burned.
This occurs in a process called COAL GASSIFICATION. I know engine carbon is not really COAL, but both substances are mostly carbon. Under high temperature, anerobic conditions, steam and carbon combine to form carbon monoxide and hydrogen gas. In a combustion chamber with water injection,
HC+O2+N2+H2O enter the chamber.
A source of heat is used to ignite the mixture to produce:
mainly H2O+ C02+N2 and trace NOx (various oxides of nitrogen) and CO
But there is an excess of H2O in this engine, and excess carbon buildup on the walls. Now there is a deficit of free O2, significantly more heat, so more steam to combine with the carbon.
Heat+H2O+Cx=H2 and CO.
This reaction undoubtedly takes place even without water injection in any HC burning engine, but on a miniscule scale, and I'm not even sure how much of the cleaning is done by gassification, but I just thought I could add some more knowlege to the pool.
You can look up coal gassification, it is a common method used to turn solid coal into a more meterable fuel source. A very similar process was used in Wartime Austrailia to power cars due to lack of petroleum. Of course, it was not nearly as powerful or efficient, but you could use any burnable carbon source as fuel.
The car required a stove to be mounted on it with a smoldering fire and steamjets inside, with plumbing run up to a gas metering fuel system. Having a smoldering potbellied stove mounted on your rear bumper probably isn't the safest thing, either, but if you can't get gas, it'll have to do.
This occurs in a process called COAL GASSIFICATION. I know engine carbon is not really COAL, but both substances are mostly carbon. Under high temperature, anerobic conditions, steam and carbon combine to form carbon monoxide and hydrogen gas. In a combustion chamber with water injection,
HC+O2+N2+H2O enter the chamber.
A source of heat is used to ignite the mixture to produce:
mainly H2O+ C02+N2 and trace NOx (various oxides of nitrogen) and CO
But there is an excess of H2O in this engine, and excess carbon buildup on the walls. Now there is a deficit of free O2, significantly more heat, so more steam to combine with the carbon.
Heat+H2O+Cx=H2 and CO.
This reaction undoubtedly takes place even without water injection in any HC burning engine, but on a miniscule scale, and I'm not even sure how much of the cleaning is done by gassification, but I just thought I could add some more knowlege to the pool.
You can look up coal gassification, it is a common method used to turn solid coal into a more meterable fuel source. A very similar process was used in Wartime Austrailia to power cars due to lack of petroleum. Of course, it was not nearly as powerful or efficient, but you could use any burnable carbon source as fuel.
The car required a stove to be mounted on it with a smoldering fire and steamjets inside, with plumbing run up to a gas metering fuel system. Having a smoldering potbellied stove mounted on your rear bumper probably isn't the safest thing, either, but if you can't get gas, it'll have to do.
.. j/k
12-23-07, 03:25 PM
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yeah, this sounds like something i can do. he he. now im really curious to see what will happen.
anybody got a pic of what nipple they used? im new to rotary engines and I remember someone else asked where to pour the water. pics could help.
anybody got a pic of what nipple they used? im new to rotary engines and I remember someone else asked where to pour the water. pics could help.
01-05-08, 02:20 PM
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I have a common sense question.
What's the difference between the carbon coming lose during the water injection and during normal driving? I see none, except during driving the flame would disintegrate it and the water would keep it more cool in the combustion chamber. Don't say that the water injection breaks it up into smaller pieces, it just takes a little to wedge between the seal and your housing. I think you are doing damage to the engine with the H2O, you're just not seeing it now.
Like the earlier poster said, just drive the hell out of it. Well, every now and then.
What's the difference between the carbon coming lose during the water injection and during normal driving? I see none, except during driving the flame would disintegrate it and the water would keep it more cool in the combustion chamber. Don't say that the water injection breaks it up into smaller pieces, it just takes a little to wedge between the seal and your housing. I think you are doing damage to the engine with the H2O, you're just not seeing it now.
Like the earlier poster said, just drive the hell out of it. Well, every now and then.
01-06-08, 08:03 PM
#69
Well, I did the de-carbonization procedure earlier that Rotary Resurrection kindly described on his site (and is described on this thread). I re-installed my mid pipe before doing this rather than using my cat. I figured that I didn't want to impede the flow any of the crap that was going out the exhaust.
I had a 6' length of vac hose in my spare parts bin so I created a T and plumbed it into both vacuum nipples on the UIM (for boost gauge and BOV). This enabled me to put the gallon of water with me in the passenger seat so I could watch the revs while it sucked the water through.
The water was sucked through over the course of a few minutes. Tons of smoke came out the exhaust for the duration and everything seemed to go well. The only thing I thought was weird was the steam coming from the air filter on my oil catch can (Crispy style catch can).
I took it out for an aggressive drive and the car kept smoking for about 10 miles. When I got back, I was looking at the oil catch can and noticed that during the drive it had pushed out a bunch of crap through the oil catch can air filter. So I kept looking and noticed that my catch can was full of water - and that is what I don't understand...
How could my oil catch can have filled with water (or steam) from this process?
Anyone have any thoughts?
Thanks.
I had a 6' length of vac hose in my spare parts bin so I created a T and plumbed it into both vacuum nipples on the UIM (for boost gauge and BOV). This enabled me to put the gallon of water with me in the passenger seat so I could watch the revs while it sucked the water through.
The water was sucked through over the course of a few minutes. Tons of smoke came out the exhaust for the duration and everything seemed to go well. The only thing I thought was weird was the steam coming from the air filter on my oil catch can (Crispy style catch can).
I took it out for an aggressive drive and the car kept smoking for about 10 miles. When I got back, I was looking at the oil catch can and noticed that during the drive it had pushed out a bunch of crap through the oil catch can air filter. So I kept looking and noticed that my catch can was full of water - and that is what I don't understand...
How could my oil catch can have filled with water (or steam) from this process?
Anyone have any thoughts?
Thanks.
01-07-08, 12:03 AM
#70
My report!
Well I've done the water cleaning thing for some time now and have come to the conclusion that it works.......some what!
My fd's original engine lasted till 108k till I blew it from over boosting. Since I had been doing the water steam cleaning thing, I was curious to see how clean the rotors would be. Well to my surprise, they were still full of carbon.
I thought why did my engine have such great compression all this time. History wise, my engine never flooded (even when I tried to flood it), or had any sort of hard starting problems hot or cold. Hell when the rear rotor completely blew (zero compression), I was still able to start the car and drive it 10 miles to my parents house.
After much thought I've come to the conclusion that the water steam cleaning does a good job of cleaning the plugs for a healthy spark and keeping the internal seals free of the carbon sticking but really does nothing for the rotor faces on higher mileage engines. Newer engines??????maybe as it's possible to keep things clean b4 excessive build-up happens. I don't see the water cleaning away any thick baked on carbon. Keeping the seals free of sticking REALLY is the most important thing and this is what the water cleaning does really well. Also the steam cleaning really does a great job on the cat and exhaust. The inside of my cat isn't carboned up at all and very light in color. I need to take pics of the rotor that blew as I have yet to clean it yet and post here.
Now recently I have experimented on my S5 91 NA vert with Piston Kleen. This water based cleaner is what I use to clean my rotors when I rebuild. It's not toxic or anything. I've never seen a product break down carbon like this stuff. Anyways I did the water cleaning procedure with this stuff instead of water. To check and see how well it would work, I removed my spark plugs to inspect them b4 the cleaning. Re-installed them and did the cleaning. For some reason my verts intake doesn't produce the same high levels of vacuum through the nipples I selected when compared to the upper nipples on my Fd's LIM. I used the map sensor nipple and the other one that has the cap on it. It took like 3 mins for 8oz of Piston Kleen to be sucked in while revving the engine. After cleaning both front and rear rotors, I removed the spark plugs again for inspection. I was truly amazed at all the junk that was on them. The plugs really looked fouled. So I thought I need to clean the rest of the junk out of the engine as the Piston Kleen obviously did something. So I re-installed the plugs again and ran 8oz of water through each of the same nipples. I figured steam cleaning now would clean out what the Piston Kleen broke down. When done, I removed the plugs yet again for inspection. This time to my amazement, the plugs were really clean. I was like DAMN!!!! This really worked. After driving my engine feels a little stronger too. I need to break my engine down to really see the effects. This is something I will do here in the near future after I get my 20b up and running.
My fd's original engine lasted till 108k till I blew it from over boosting. Since I had been doing the water steam cleaning thing, I was curious to see how clean the rotors would be. Well to my surprise, they were still full of carbon.
I thought why did my engine have such great compression all this time. History wise, my engine never flooded (even when I tried to flood it), or had any sort of hard starting problems hot or cold. Hell when the rear rotor completely blew (zero compression), I was still able to start the car and drive it 10 miles to my parents house. After much thought I've come to the conclusion that the water steam cleaning does a good job of cleaning the plugs for a healthy spark and keeping the internal seals free of the carbon sticking but really does nothing for the rotor faces on higher mileage engines. Newer engines??????maybe as it's possible to keep things clean b4 excessive build-up happens. I don't see the water cleaning away any thick baked on carbon. Keeping the seals free of sticking REALLY is the most important thing and this is what the water cleaning does really well. Also the steam cleaning really does a great job on the cat and exhaust. The inside of my cat isn't carboned up at all and very light in color. I need to take pics of the rotor that blew as I have yet to clean it yet and post here.
Now recently I have experimented on my S5 91 NA vert with Piston Kleen. This water based cleaner is what I use to clean my rotors when I rebuild. It's not toxic or anything. I've never seen a product break down carbon like this stuff. Anyways I did the water cleaning procedure with this stuff instead of water. To check and see how well it would work, I removed my spark plugs to inspect them b4 the cleaning. Re-installed them and did the cleaning. For some reason my verts intake doesn't produce the same high levels of vacuum through the nipples I selected when compared to the upper nipples on my Fd's LIM. I used the map sensor nipple and the other one that has the cap on it. It took like 3 mins for 8oz of Piston Kleen to be sucked in while revving the engine. After cleaning both front and rear rotors, I removed the spark plugs again for inspection. I was truly amazed at all the junk that was on them. The plugs really looked fouled. So I thought I need to clean the rest of the junk out of the engine as the Piston Kleen obviously did something. So I re-installed the plugs again and ran 8oz of water through each of the same nipples. I figured steam cleaning now would clean out what the Piston Kleen broke down. When done, I removed the plugs yet again for inspection. This time to my amazement, the plugs were really clean. I was like DAMN!!!!
This really worked. After driving my engine feels a little stronger too. I need to break my engine down to really see the effects. This is something I will do here in the near future after I get my 20b up and running.
01-19-08, 12:24 AM
#72
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Well, I tried it.
I went ahead and tried it. Since I'm basically confused by the UIM and LIM vacuum connections, I ended up just using the nipple that my boost gauge is connected to. I could really use some advice as to weather also running the water into the nipple for the Air Bypass Valve or the vacuum line for the break system (not sure why the breaks have a vacuum line anyway...) would affect another part of the engine. Also, I have no idea where to connect a line on the LIM.
Anyway, I ran 4 liters of water through the system. It went easy enough as I had a nice length of vacuum hose that came around to the drivers side. I used 2 2L pop bottles. I dripped the end of the hose into the first bottle, kept the rpm at about 3000-3500 and then switched to the second bottle when the first ran dry. The car drove fine afterwards. Not sure if it helped anything, but I read somewhere else (can't find the link) that it can help clean out the cat as well. Not sure if that is true, but since I failed WA state emissions, I'm willing to try most anything.
For FDdragon:
Anyway, I ran 4 liters of water through the system. It went easy enough as I had a nice length of vacuum hose that came around to the drivers side. I used 2 2L pop bottles. I dripped the end of the hose into the first bottle, kept the rpm at about 3000-3500 and then switched to the second bottle when the first ran dry. The car drove fine afterwards. Not sure if it helped anything, but I read somewhere else (can't find the link) that it can help clean out the cat as well. Not sure if that is true, but since I failed WA state emissions, I'm willing to try most anything.
For FDdragon:
Last edited by dhays; 01-19-08 at 12:35 AM.
