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I just wanted some extra opinions on these rotors. If I clearance the groove back out and the apex seal fits how it should could I still use this rotor or is it toast? I have some s4 t2 rotors to use so I'm not very bothered if it's done for.
i would measure everything else on the rotor first, if everything else on the rotor is good, then fix that groove.
if there is something else wrong then the rotor should probably be used for a lamp, or something
engine from SW North Carolina 🤔, paging DJSETO … probably should go back and link my post in the thread about using an Xtreme Rotaries diamond apex seal groove file …
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Posting a variation of what I wrote in my build thread where I was tagged for anyone who stumbles on this thread and reads the link Howard Posted:
I just read the iRotary blog and frankly I'm quite annoyed. While the message thatproper clearance is essential isn't up for debate, I have some issues with how things where stated and that in the end, the post was more self serving (e.g. look how good our seals are) vs being a just a useful piece of information to the RX7 community. I'm also annoyed that he used my thread to get some of the additional information or updates rather than consulting me directly or asking for updates, but it's internet, people can do what they want and for the most part say what they want.
But for those you who stumble upon this post, let me save you reading my mega build thread and provide some addition information that was left out or just incorrect with respect to that iRotary post:
When my 1st motor with iRotary seals blew and I spoke to the iRotary team, they were quick to say it wasn't their fault, which I can understand. When I told them who my builder was, they said they knew him, trusted him, and that it wasn't likely a builder issues.
So when the author says "after an extensive examination, the only unusual finding was an extremely abnormal rotor groove witness mark left on the sides of the apex seals as shown in Example 2. This was communicated to the owner of the engine, but this observation was dismissed as possibly just another lack of culpability by a manufacturer." -- THIS IS CRAP. Their first finger point was to blame my tuner and that was not a very cordial phone call between all parties. At NO point during this first tear down did they EVER mention this was an issue with the Rotor groove. If it was, I would have communicated this to my builder vs spending more money and going through engine rebuild #2 and #3. This perhaps is what bothers me the most. Yes, they said it wasn't their fault, but they never blamed the builder because of the prior relationship they with him. They simply said your tuner is the problem and repeatedly named dropped all the people who successfully ran their seals as if that somehow made me or my wallet feel better. When my tuner wouldn't provide his locked tune to them, they doubled down on blaming him.
I don't like the statement "Once again, this engine builder did not bother to check the condition of the rotor grooves or the clearance between the second set of new apex seals from a different brand and the rotor apex seal grooves." and "Neither the condition of the apex seal grooves in these rotors, nor the measurement of the clearance between the I-Rotary apex seals and their respective rotor apex seal grooves was evaluated before assembly of this engine."
These statements are not facts. They are assumptions. They have no idea what my builder did or didn't do during both engine 1 and 2 rebuild. Could this have happened? Yes. Do we know it did? No. They made assumptions that he was sloppy based on the inspection of the Rotor at the 3rd rebuild. We have no idea if the gap was so visible or pronounced during the first rebuild. Perhaps things were closer to spec when the iRotary seals went in and the first dyno run made them start to get our of spec? I wdon' t know, but neither do they. Bottom line is by the time we saw the rotor grooves out of spec, those rotors had seen 2 dyno sessions (one for each rebuild) and a track day. Any of those plus break in miles could have causes the rotor gap to get as bad as it was during the 3rd rebuild. We won't know for sure but the implication that the builder just didn't do it is an assumption, not a fact. In fact, my builder was very adamant he checks the clearance and gap with any build.
He did not have the other seals from my 2nd rebuild to analyze nor does he have the latest compression numbers or information on my 3rd rebuild. For someone who is an engineer, it's just plain sloppy to post information from my post and make inferences about other brands of seals, without doing the same type of analysis on the 2nd set of seals or the ones currently in my engine. As someone who also went to college for engineering, my professors would have a field day if I came in with partial data to support a statement that my product was better than someone else's.
Again, the message of having proper clearances is essential, but there are plenty of people running other brands of seals with fantastic results.
it might be just as fair to say that we might not always see too clearly compared to someone standing on the outside and not being entangled in the heart of certain matters …
.
Posting a variation of what I wrote in my build thread where I was tagged for anyone who stumbles on this thread and reads the link Howard Posted:
I just read the iRotary blog and frankly I'm quite annoyed. While the message thatproper clearance is essential isn't up for debate, I have some issues with how things where stated and that in the end, the post was more self serving (e.g. look how good our seals are) vs being a just a useful piece of information to the RX7 community. I'm also annoyed that he used my thread to get some of the additional information or updates rather than consulting me directly or asking for updates, but it's internet, people can do what they want and for the most part say what they want.
But for those you who stumble upon this post, let me save you reading my mega build thread and provide some addition information that was left out or just incorrect with respect to that iRotary post:
When my 1st motor with iRotary seals blew and I spoke to the iRotary team, they were quick to say it wasn't their fault, which I can understand. When I told them who my builder was, they said they knew him, trusted him, and that it wasn't likely a builder issues.
So when the author says "after an extensive examination, the only unusual finding was an extremely abnormal rotor groove witness mark left on the sides of the apex seals as shown in Example 2. This was communicated to the owner of the engine, but this observation was dismissed as possibly just another lack of culpability by a manufacturer." -- THIS IS CRAP. Their first finger point was to blame my tuner and that was not a very cordial phone call between all parties. At NO point during this first tear down did they EVER mention this was an issue with the Rotor groove. If it was, I would have communicated this to my builder vs spending more money and going through engine rebuild #2 and #3. This perhaps is what bothers me the most. Yes, they said it wasn't their fault, but they never blamed the builder because of the prior relationship they with him. They simply said your tuner is the problem and repeatedly named dropped all the people who successfully ran their seals as if that somehow made me or my wallet feel better. When my tuner wouldn't provide his locked tune to them, they doubled down on blaming him.
I don't like the statement "Once again, this engine builder did not bother to check the condition of the rotor grooves or the clearance between the second set of new apex seals from a different brand and the rotor apex seal grooves." and "Neither the condition of the apex seal grooves in these rotors, nor the measurement of the clearance between the I-Rotary apex seals and their respective rotor apex seal grooves was evaluated before assembly of this engine."
These statements are not facts. They are assumptions. They have no idea what my builder did or didn't do during both engine 1 and 2 rebuild. Could this have happened? Yes. Do we know it did? No. They made assumptions that he was sloppy based on the inspection of the Rotor at the 3rd rebuild. We have no idea if the gap was so visible or pronounced during the first rebuild. Perhaps things were closer to spec when the iRotary seals went in and the first dyno run made them start to get our of spec? I wdon' t know, but neither do they. Bottom line is by the time we saw the rotor grooves out of spec, those rotors had seen 2 dyno sessions (one for each rebuild) and a track day. Any of those plus break in miles could have causes the rotor gap to get as bad as it was during the 3rd rebuild. We won't know for sure but the implication that the builder just didn't do it is an assumption, not a fact. In fact, my builder was very adamant he checks the clearance and gap with any build.
He did not have the other seals from my 2nd rebuild to analyze nor does he have the latest compression numbers or information on my 3rd rebuild. For someone who is an engineer, it's just plain sloppy to post information from my post and make inferences about other brands of seals, without doing the same type of analysis on the 2nd set of seals or the ones currently in my engine. As someone who also went to college for engineering, my professors would have a field day if I came in with partial data to support a statement that my product was better than someone else's.
Again, the message of having proper clearances is essential, but there are plenty of people running other brands of seals with fantastic results.
So the claim was that the apex seals failed from too much clearance? What was the clearance that caused the I-rotary seals fail?
The issue was the clearance wasn't consistent through the groove. This caused the seal to be able to flex more in some places and effectively warp. See my photo. Notice how the groove "flares" out a bit at each end. Again, as I stated, this is what we saw at the third rebuild. It was clear as day noticeable. What we don't know, was what it looked like during the first rebuild and after teardown and rebuild. The link implies the build neglected to measure it. We don't know for sure. I suspect it likey was not as obvious and just got worse and worse. We know how the story ends but we don't know the middle of the book....
02-27-24, 09:37 PM
