Indestructeble Apex-seals!!!!!!
12-14-05, 07:58 AM
#27
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I imported a drag car built by r magic (japan) a couple of years ago.
The engine had been rebuilt less than 2000 miles when I bought the car (fd).
The car had supposedly unbreakable seals when rebuilt by rmagic.
Within 500 miles of use in uk. I had top change the turbo due to dying prematurely with the 2 step ecu + antilag. Also did a compression test and found the rear rotor was reading a lot lower than the front pulled the motor and found these apex seals that were as hard as anything. We tried to break them and couldn't, have no idea what make they were or what material it was made out of it was a lot heavier than stock apex seals. When we pulled the engine both housings were well scored the rear housing was extremely scored looked more like the engine had done 150,000 miles not 2,500. You could easily see that all parts bearings everything in the engine was brand new but the housing were completely destroyed in a very short space of time. Seal were like brand new.
I would only use them on a full race application certainly not on a street car.
The engine had been rebuilt less than 2000 miles when I bought the car (fd).
The car had supposedly unbreakable seals when rebuilt by rmagic.
Within 500 miles of use in uk. I had top change the turbo due to dying prematurely with the 2 step ecu + antilag. Also did a compression test and found the rear rotor was reading a lot lower than the front pulled the motor and found these apex seals that were as hard as anything. We tried to break them and couldn't, have no idea what make they were or what material it was made out of it was a lot heavier than stock apex seals. When we pulled the engine both housings were well scored the rear housing was extremely scored looked more like the engine had done 150,000 miles not 2,500. You could easily see that all parts bearings everything in the engine was brand new but the housing were completely destroyed in a very short space of time. Seal were like brand new.
I would only use them on a full race application certainly not on a street car.
12-14-05, 11:15 PM
#28
"Worrying about breaking a PTS apex seal, as our seals are guaranteed not to break in your engine!!!!!"
Made me wonder if they broke when you took them out of the package, LMAO that would be funny, but would suck, well i don't really know a whole lot.......well i jack all about this right now so i'll stay out of it............
you are welcome
Prôdigy
Made me wonder if they broke when you took them out of the package, LMAO that would be funny, but would suck, well i don't really know a whole lot.......well i jack all about this right now so i'll stay out of it............
you are welcome
Prôdigy
12-15-05, 02:18 AM
#29
Lives on the Forum
Too much anecdotes and not enough objective facts...
It doesn't take much to track down a metallurgy analysis lab to take care of the question of what it's made out of?
-Ted
It doesn't take much to track down a metallurgy analysis lab to take care of the question of what it's made out of?
-Ted
12-16-05, 11:02 PM
#30
Originally Posted by herblenny
If you look at the History of Rotary Engine. Mazda spent great deal of time coming up with right combination of metal so that the car could be used by general public, who doesn't have to rebuild the engine every 5000 miles or 50,000 miles.
True but how long ago was that? To me this is just like the old debate about using synthetic oils in rotarys(which in today's time can be done). In 40 years I refuse to believe that someone else can't manufacture a better overall seal using today's technology than what Mazda did many years ago. I'm sure Mazda is still trying to improve on them but, in today's time Mazda isn't going to put in the effort it once did in further developing the seals like they use too because they are more worried about making the engine more environmentally friendly. I believe that magic apex seal is just around the corner.
12-18-05, 08:45 AM
#31
T-von,
I can't argue with you. Sure, someday mazda or someone else will spend their resources to come with with better apex seals (not just 'indestructeble' but better strength and better wear) for the rotary engines. I'm not saying thats not going to be happen... Just saying that at the moment, I haven't see any other seals that proven to be well balanced like OEM seals.
I can't argue with you. Sure, someday mazda or someone else will spend their resources to come with with better apex seals (not just 'indestructeble' but better strength and better wear) for the rotary engines. I'm not saying thats not going to be happen... Just saying that at the moment, I haven't see any other seals that proven to be well balanced like OEM seals.
12-19-05, 06:06 AM
#34
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Not going to happen...
Bending or deflection means it's going to seize in the groove, unless you make the apex seal and the groove deflect at the same time?
Making the apex seal harder means it becomes more brittle.
More brittle means it tends to shatter when it does fail.
Harder also means it will wear the groove down faster unless you also raise the hardeness of the groove itself.
You're fighting all the metallurgy rules now.
I believe the poster that mentioned that these ultra hard seals just do not see significant mileage in the motor for the ultra hardness to cause any problems.
Engine teardowns between races ensure this is so.
If you try and street these things, I agree they are going to tear the apex seal grooves to shreds in the long run.
-Ted
Bending or deflection means it's going to seize in the groove, unless you make the apex seal and the groove deflect at the same time?
Making the apex seal harder means it becomes more brittle.
More brittle means it tends to shatter when it does fail.
Harder also means it will wear the groove down faster unless you also raise the hardeness of the groove itself.
You're fighting all the metallurgy rules now.
I believe the poster that mentioned that these ultra hard seals just do not see significant mileage in the motor for the ultra hardness to cause any problems.
Engine teardowns between races ensure this is so.
If you try and street these things, I agree they are going to tear the apex seal grooves to shreds in the long run.
-Ted
12-19-05, 10:16 PM
#35
Originally Posted by RETed
If you try and street these things, I agree they are going to tear the apex seal grooves to shreds in the long run.
-Ted
-Ted
You know of any way to treat the grooves to resist any potential wear? Would cryo treating work? I mean there are so many coatings on the market that need to be explored to find the right combination.
12-20-05, 04:08 AM
#36
Lives on the Forum
Originally Posted by t-von
You know of any way to treat the grooves to resist any potential wear? Would cryo treating work? I mean there are so many coatings on the market that need to be explored to find the right combination.
You're going to end up chasing your tail trying to get the right combination to be reliable enough on the street.
There are a number of methods to harden the metal...
Heat treating
Plasma spraying
Ion coating
cryo
etc.
So who's going to play guinea pig?
-Ted
01-30-08, 12:03 AM
#39
damn, thread ressurection without searching. Minus 30 forum bux.
very disappointed,
https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/unbreakable-apex-seals-720345/
here is another good thread:
https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/nrs-rotorsports-ceramic-seal-test-results-182522/
very disappointed,
https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/unbreakable-apex-seals-720345/
here is another good thread:
https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/nrs-rotorsports-ceramic-seal-test-results-182522/
02-04-08, 01:45 AM
#42
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well since he ressurected it, and i took the time to read the damn thing, heres my 2 cents.
the benefit i see to a unbreakable apex seal would simply be ( and i could be wrong here im a NA guy) when it finally bites it an bends or you toast a housing it doesnt grenade your turbo with lil bits of shrapnel. seal failure is gonna kill your housing with a broken seal anyway, as well as the potential turbo issue.
my question would be i guess "what is more expensive, housings or turbos?" as i have no idea what a turbo goes for (upwards of $2k on mazdatrix site) or what kind of damage it takes pukin a apex seal through
the benefit i see to a unbreakable apex seal would simply be ( and i could be wrong here im a NA guy) when it finally bites it an bends or you toast a housing it doesnt grenade your turbo with lil bits of shrapnel. seal failure is gonna kill your housing with a broken seal anyway, as well as the potential turbo issue.
my question would be i guess "what is more expensive, housings or turbos?" as i have no idea what a turbo goes for (upwards of $2k on mazdatrix site) or what kind of damage it takes pukin a apex seal through
02-04-08, 12:21 PM
#43
Lives on the Forum
Blew up an engine (twice) that was running a GT35R.
First time it didn't touch the housing or the turbo.
Second time it killed the housing, but the turbo still was intact.
I think that turbo has nine lives.
-Ted
02-04-08, 02:49 PM
#44
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Now, that's the million dollar question...
You're going to end up chasing your tail trying to get the right combination to be reliable enough on the street.
There are a number of methods to harden the metal...
Heat treating
Plasma spraying
Ion coating
cryo
etc.
So who's going to play guinea pig?
-Ted
You're going to end up chasing your tail trying to get the right combination to be reliable enough on the street.
There are a number of methods to harden the metal...
Heat treating
Plasma spraying
Ion coating
cryo
etc.
So who's going to play guinea pig?
-Ted
Who better than you?
Spec.
02-05-08, 02:39 AM
#46
somebody has to do it on a DD and log the total life of the engine.
2028= well, going on 500K miles and still had full compression.
somebody with a blown motor that can spend the $$ step up.
2028= well, going on 500K miles and still had full compression.
somebody with a blown motor that can spend the $$ step up.
