1gendreemer

Ok so I own a complete 1984 GSL-SE and a buddy is GIVING me anything I need/want relating to the motor from his 93 FD (Auto tranny), except for the short block itself - someone else is getting that.

Anyone out there know:

1. Will the 93 FD intake and exhaust manifolds work on the 13b from my 84 GSL-SE?

2. If #1 is possible, will the stock FD ECU etc to run the motor?

3. What other problems might I run into? (IE. should I rebuild my motor with lower compression rotors?)

I don't care about stuff breaking because of high horsepower or even if it makes gobs of power - I'd be happy with 200-250HP. I just want to know if what I'm considering is even possible.

Thanks for your input!

Alex-7

Nope.

1gendreemer

Is there an explanation to go with your "nope"? Frankly, your answer is not at all informative and I'd like to understand the "why's".

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

The intake manifold bolt pattern is completely different. The intake runners on the 3rd gen engine come in from a higher angle than the GSL-SE intake runners. They won't line up even if you find a way to make the bolt holes work. The center housing on the GSL-SE has a large casting sticking out which won't alow the FD exhaust manifold to fit. The stock 3rd gen ecu won't work as it is a map based system that is tuned to work with the 3rd gen engine, turbos, etc. The differences in porting styles between each engine would alter the powreband and you'd probably blow it up. Your fuel pump is inadequate. I could go on and on but it just isn't worth the trouble unless you can get the whole engine. Even then you would need to change motor mounting points.

So basically, "nope" seems to be a perfectly legitimate and good answer.

1gendreemer

Legitimate answer - ok i'll give you that. Anything close to "good" - definitely not. "Basically" anyone interested enough to post a question would never accept a one-word answer from an unknown person on the internet with no explanation. I'm not an idiot or a child and won't tolerate being treated like one, especially in this group where there's a common bond in something I'm very passionate about - the rx7. Nice job of two people not being very friendly to someone who is just trying to explore some possibilities. Honestly, I've heard some bad things circulating around the net about folks on this forum, figured I've give it the benefit of the doubt, and seem to have had those those rumors validated not once but twice. You've both done a pretty poor job of promoting our common interest. Enough said, and I'm moving on.

Regardless of the above, thank you for the explanation, which was informative.

I'll do some research on what it takes to change motor mount points, and work on sourcing the rest of the FD motor. Thanks for reminding me that I need to take the fuel pump out of my buddy's car too.

rotaryengineering

The engine bolt pattern is off by 1 hole all the rest match up. I believe it is the front top FD Manifold bolt hole that would need to have some aluminum added and drill a hole. As for the ports matching the outer ports should be fine but, the center one is higher on the Cosmo/FD style center cast irons. I have a couple of engines apart I'll measure them when I get home.

HEY for free it is worth trying if you have the time. I think what your trying would work fine but, some people are just not willing to think outside of the box. If you have the time and patience I think you could make this work just fine.

Good Luck

1gendreemer

Thanks so much rotaryengineering. My thoughts exactly: for free I don't have anything to lose by trying and could end up with a very quick, twin turbo FB. I'd appreciate the measurements if you can get them. I looked at the pictures of the respective intake and exhaust gaskets on Mazdatrix (assuming they are accurate), and they look very close. What rotarygod said about the angle of the intake ports sounds like an insurmountable problem though...

I might be able to beg the rest of the FD motor if need be, I just didn't ask initially because at first glance it looked like it might work and someone else called dibs. Maybe I can sell my housings/irons and transfer the resulting cash. At any rate, thanks for the reply.

rotaryengineering

Leave your block alone if you have a good running motor stick with it and make the system work. Once you get the Turbo System bugs worked then mess with the motor. Hey a Turbo Charged 7 is always a good thing.

1gendreemer

"a Turbo Charged 7 is always a good thing" - no doubt!


We're pulling the FD motor this week, so I'll be able to get a good look at the whole works soon enough. I'm anxious to have all the parts on hand to play with, and both motors on stands right next to each other. Given a couple more months of crappy winter weather to spend experimenting, I'm fairly confident I can make SOMETHING work and spend less doing it than your average turboed FB project. I'd very much like to post a success story...

As a sidenote, the FD this is coming out of only has 40,000 miles too...so I'm expecting the turbos and everything else to be in fairly good shape. If I can get the whole motor I'm going to be very pleased.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

I wasn't being an ******* to you although I am admittedly good at it as apparently are you in a most impressive way. I was answering a question as was the first responder. You asked questions that could be answered in yes or no fashion. I answered them and then stated that a "no" answer was good which it was. If you wanted to know why it wasn't going to work, you should have stated that in the original question. You didn't. When you did, I answered it. I'm sorry helpful people can get your little panties in such a bunch. Here, I'll break it down and answer the original questions according to how you asked them so you don't screw it all up again next time you want to be a dick to people who are trying to help you. English class wasn't a strong suit was it?

#1: No. (a legitimate answer commonly given to a question beginning with the words "will", "are", "can", "does", and "should" )
#2: Only applicable if #1 is yes (according to how you worded it since you stated "if #1 possible") which it wasn't. Therefore it's "no".
#3: Unneccesary as #1 and #2 were not a "yes" which by default means "no".

Simple enough? Therefore, only "no" or in this case "nope" was needed as a response. He wasn't being a dick. He was answering your question which got a dick of a response from you. Got it? An original question of "what would it take to make a 3rd gen intake manifold, turbo, and ecu setup work on a stock GSL-SE engine?" would have denoted a need for more information. Provide it next time.

If you want to come in here and be an ******* then so be it. You won't find many willing to keep helping you with that attitude. If you want to get detailed answers, learn how to ask detailed questions.

Sheesh. Kids....

1gendreemer

I believe that because inflection, tone, and gestures are lacking in this medium, that meaning is easily misconstrued, so it's very important to go out of your way to be clear and courteous if you want to be seen as helpful. I try to live by this. I'll be the first to admit I should not have gotten riled, and was out of line regardless of why. I think "nope" really is a dick answer to my original question though, because it is so obviously incomplete. It's implied that I want details. Would anyone ask a question as I did and then go away satisfied with "nope" for an answer. I truly doubt it. Also, coming from someone who's avatar claims that they were banned, it's doubly suspect information. Still, I should've just politely asked for the details in my follow up instead of opening the door to what has occured.
The rest is history and a waste of all our time. I apologize for not being the better man and sidestepping what I thought was a the initial slight, and for everything that followed. I do think it was unnecessary for rotarygod's comment to agree, scathingly, that "nope" was a valid answer. I do believe I was further validated in my annoyance by another avatar reading "hated by many". Adding to my case are the later, completely unrelated barbs towards me such as "English class wasn't your strong suit, was it?" and "Kids, sheesh...".
I'll admit I was a jerk for displaying annoyance at your responses and was wrong for doing so, but while I was out of line for that, I only expressed dismay that you were not being helpful to a fellow rotorhead and treating me like I was worthy of a good answer, and did not offer any unrelated remarks.
I'm not interested in arguing, and am more than willing to apologize. I just wanted some likeminded folks to think outside the box with me, and thought I was being answered by the proverbial bad apples in the barrel. I was wrong. Misunderstandings went all around and we'll do better next time. I'll be clearer in the future and will not allow myself to return any hostility, real or perceived, and in return I'd ask that any futher replies truly be helpful or at least just complete.

To recap, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I think I also am owed an apology. I would very much like to enjoy this forum and not have this experience be the basis for my opinion of rx7club.com. The point is to help each other enjoy a car that we all love, so let's do that.

So here are my rephrased questions if anyone would like to help. I think if we put as much energy into the questions as the bickering, everyone can come out happy.

1. What would it take to create a 200+HP (twin)turboed FB? Given:
- a complete GSL-SE (1984, 5speed manual)
- the manifolds, turbos, electronics (anything but the short block) from a '93 FD Auto
- the budget constraints of what it would cost to drop in an S5 TII motor.
- an owner who is not opposed to rebuilding the motor with lower compression or other accomodations for boost, as the motor is being taken apart to be rebuilt anyway.

2. Add to the given of #1 the rest of the FD motor. Now what would it take?

Assume that #1 is the preferred option and that I'd like to spend very little. If you don't think it's possible, please reply with why. I would like to know all the details, at great length if need be.

Thanks to ALL the contributors, regardless of what is now past.

Alex-7

No need to apologise. the amount of time and money you waste on this project before you enevitably give up will more than make up for your arrogance in my mind.

Ask a silly question, get a silly answer.


Good luck, and welcome to the forum. (I mean it)

--Alex

cptpain

iTrader: (1)

dont forget the GSL-SE block has SIX intake ports and the FD mani has FOUR

t-von

iTrader: (8)

You may need to start searching the 1st gen section with most of your questions about this swap. If I'm not mistaken, the stock twins wont fit in the FB chassis because they hit the subframe. A better solution if your trying to save money would be just to buy a used S5 turbo and SSautochrome turbo manifold off ebay for cheap. That would easily get you to your hp goals with less heavy clutter in the engine bay.

kevinbtz

iTrader: (4)

The twins fit fine with room to spare.

1gendreemer

As food for thought for those following this discussion, here are some shots of the respective intake gaskets for the FD and GSL-SE, taken from the Mazdatrix site.

From the manifold to the motor, yes, there are six intake ports on the GSL-SE “block”, but notice how the four ports on the FD manifold essentially cover the same area. Unfortunately the bolt pattern looks like some match up and some do not have a corresponding hole/bolt. It’s not perfect, for sure.
FD





FB






Between the UIM and LIM on both cars, the port and bolt configuration looks very close, so maybe this is where I’ll try to mate things up if the project moves forward.

FD



FB

That’s all assuming the pictures are in the same scale…

I’ve read several places that the exhaust manifold from the FD will bolt right up after you grind off some extra material from the GSL-SE motor. The gaskets for the FD is one per each exhaust hole and the GSL-SE has them joined, so I can’t compare them in the way I did the intake gaskets.

I’m anxious to see what measurements rotaryengineering comes back with.

1gendreemer

Actually I'm more anxious to get the FD motor out (probably Wednesday) and start trying to make something fit.

1gendreemer

I have a separate, more relevant, thread started in another place where I'll be posting updates about the project from here on out. Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this one!