General Rotary Tech Support Use this forum for tech questions not specific to a certain model year
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by: CARiD

Fu*k you ExMo, Shell, BP, et al. (Alternative fuel rotaries?)

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Aug 16, 2005 | 11:01 PM
  #1  
Pele's Avatar
Thread Starter
Right near Malloy
Tenured Member: 25 Years
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
iTrader: (28)
 
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,855
Likes: 517
From: Behind a workbench, repairing FC Electronics.
Fu*k you ExMo, Shell, BP, et al. (Alternative fuel rotaries?)

So I've seen diagrams of how they made the Hydrogen RX-8. They put an injector right in the top of the rotor housing.

How hard would it be to recreate this on a standard Perhipheral exhaust port (Non-Renesis) engine?

Then again, Where the hell am I gonna get hydrogen? I'm considering starting another "Where can I get Chemical-X in large quantities" type thread but I dunno... I was warned about my last one in the lounge.

How 'bout LP gas? They have the propane cylinders in front of Home Depot locked up in a little cage. I can just raid one of those in the middle of the night. Or CNG. There's a CNG vehicle refill station around here.

Last week on Top Gear (The watered down Discovery Channel version.), they had a methane powered car. Not terribly bad, I could find a place to store ****, or cap off the sewer vents on the roof. (They actually burn the sewer gas nearby. On the VA side of the Woodrow Wilson Bridge, there was a set of torches that burned 24/7. Probably relocated due to construction, but I'm sure they still burn the sewer gas.)

How hard would it be to convert a rotary to run on something other than gasoline?
Reply
Old Aug 16, 2005 | 11:12 PM
  #2  
gdnimr0d's Avatar
screwed by chad hall
Tenured Member 15 Years
iTrader: (4)
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 784
Likes: 0
From: South florida
a total rebuild of the fuel system would be required.
Reply
Old Aug 16, 2005 | 11:30 PM
  #3  
Pele's Avatar
Thread Starter
Right near Malloy
Tenured Member: 25 Years
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
iTrader: (28)
 
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,855
Likes: 517
From: Behind a workbench, repairing FC Electronics.
Originally Posted by gdnimr0d
a total rebuild of the fuel system would be required.
I know that... Pull the stock tank, put in new lines to handle the pressure and volume required, all new injectors for the proper fuel... ECU made to handle such a fuel...
Reply
Old Aug 17, 2005 | 01:56 AM
  #4  
FCdemon's Avatar
3rd gen junkie
Tenured Member 10 Years
 
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 604
Likes: 0
From: san diego
It's a bad idea. It will cost you more to obtain hydrogen than gasoline, unless a new technology for getting H2 is developed. Not to mention the impossibility of you engineering a system that would work with it No offense, but if you want to put it to the gas companies, ride a bicycle
Reply
Old Aug 17, 2005 | 08:28 AM
  #5  
Pele's Avatar
Thread Starter
Right near Malloy
Tenured Member: 25 Years
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
iTrader: (28)
 
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,855
Likes: 517
From: Behind a workbench, repairing FC Electronics.
Originally Posted by FCdemon
It's a bad idea. It will cost you more to obtain hydrogen than gasoline, unless a new technology for getting H2 is developed. Not to mention the impossibility of you engineering a system that would work with it No offense, but if you want to put it to the gas companies, ride a bicycle
Well, I did also ask for other alternative fuel ideas.

They kinda get pissed off when you ride a bike on the shoulder of the interstate highway here.
Reply
Old Aug 18, 2005 | 01:56 AM
  #6  
myfc3s's Avatar
That's what she said...
Tenured Member 10 Years
iTrader: (2)
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 572
Likes: 0
From: Socal
LOL!! What about get a big *** electric motor and fully charge it before going to work?...
Reply
Old Aug 18, 2005 | 08:46 AM
  #7  
Mireck 12A's Avatar
Racingbeat dealer
Tenured Member 20 Years
 
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 787
Likes: 1
From: Uden (AFB Volkel), The Netherlands
What are U US guy's bitching about?



http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lis...bal_gasprices/

and that are the prices in March......

now a day's it already 7.37$ a gallon here.....

I'm going to Venuzuela!
Reply
Old Aug 18, 2005 | 08:59 AM
  #8  
nevarmore's Avatar
Senior Member
Tenured Member 05 Years
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 739
Likes: 0
From: NE Ohio
LP is straightforward. The off-road, mudding, 4x4, truck guys use it and conversions to it are kinda common.

Search for propane and hydrogen, Low Impedance started a similar thread a ways back. No real product ever came of it, but nearly all of the caveats and an *** load of links were talked about.
Reply
Old Aug 18, 2005 | 09:03 AM
  #9  
nevarmore's Avatar
Senior Member
Tenured Member 05 Years
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 739
Likes: 0
From: NE Ohio
Oh yea almost forgot. "ExMo, Shell, BP, et al. " are not oil companies, they are energy companies. If propane, hydrogen, or alien semen becomes a viable, easily harvestable energy source that they can make a profit off of you can bet your *** you'll be paying them to fill up.
Reply
Old Aug 18, 2005 | 10:56 AM
  #10  
keynote22's Avatar
Rotary Enthusiast
Tenured Member 10 Years
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
From: fly over state
the used to charge about $1200 to switch a taurus over to LP around here... but i think it is partially paid for with tax credits so the actual charge might be more. Seems to me they change the fuel tank, all the lines, and the injectors, but the rest is basically the same. Atkins builds rotaries that run on propane so i am sure they could tell you what to do. 1 lb of propane will do about what one gallon of gas does with out the carbon deposits if I remember correctly.
Reply
Old Aug 18, 2005 | 01:25 PM
  #11  
Taka87's Avatar
Full Member
Tenured Member 05 Years
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
From: Pleasanton CA
I've seen cars running on used Veg oil.
Reply
Old Aug 19, 2005 | 09:56 PM
  #12  
Pele's Avatar
Thread Starter
Right near Malloy
Tenured Member: 25 Years
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
iTrader: (28)
 
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,855
Likes: 517
From: Behind a workbench, repairing FC Electronics.
Originally Posted by Taka87
I've seen cars running on used Veg oil.
That's called BioDiesel. Only works on Diesel engines. ( www.greasecar.com )

Not good for a rotary.
Reply
Old Aug 20, 2005 | 04:09 PM
  #13  
Matt Hey's Avatar
Old School
Tenured Member 10 Years
 
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 473
Likes: 0
From: Baldwin City, KS
Everyone wants to blame the oil companies and the filling stations for the high price of gas when they are the least to blame. The oil companies make their money off of volume not large profit margins. The high oil prices are because of too many fearfull little girl speculators in the stock market. They buy when there might be a hurricane in the gulf or when some terrorist shoots some missiles at a U.S. war ship in the Middle East. There has never been anywhere near a shortage of oil this year. There HAS been a low supply of gasoline but it should have nothing to do with the price of oil since it is downstream. The EPA, lawyers, and governments are more responsible for high gas prices as their has not been a refinery built in the U.S. for over 20 years because of all the red tape and risk. Bush recently addressed this but it will take some time to make changes. Refineries aren't built overnight. Cutting the demand in this country would go a long way to easing oil prices but it seems the poor are the only ones really affected. The wealthy seem to accept the fact that gas prices are going to be higher and keep on driving their huge SUV's. As far as alternative fuels go the price of gas is still too cheap to make them viable on a large enough scale.
Reply
Old Aug 20, 2005 | 04:15 PM
  #14  
GUITARJUNKIE28's Avatar
multipersonality disorder
Tenured Member 05 Years
 
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 5,656
Likes: 0
From: so. cal
or maybe it's peak oil??
Reply
Old Aug 21, 2005 | 12:31 AM
  #15  
EL5Letra's Avatar
Shut Down The System
Tenured Member 05 Years
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 783
Likes: 0
From: Miami
coconut oil? btw dude you have way too uch time on your hands lol but i tip my hat off to you lol!!
Reply
Old Aug 21, 2005 | 03:25 AM
  #16  
rcefstsfecr's Avatar
Senior Member
Tenured Member 15 Years
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 429
Likes: 0
From: Saint Louis
Originally Posted by Pele
That's called BioDiesel. Only works on Diesel engines. ( www.greasecar.com )

Not good for a rotary.

Could you enlighten me on why a diesel rotary won't work?

*flame suit*
Reply
Old Aug 21, 2005 | 09:48 AM
  #17  
GentlemenVII's Avatar
Full Member
Tenured Member 05 Years
 
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
From: Canada
What about steam powered rotary???, I have been making a 12a prototype for a year and a half the only problem is finding a good way to produce steam
Reply
Old Aug 21, 2005 | 10:45 AM
  #18  
Matt Hey's Avatar
Old School
Tenured Member 10 Years
 
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 473
Likes: 0
From: Baldwin City, KS
Originally Posted by rcefstsfecr
Could you enlighten me on why a diesel rotary won't work?

*flame suit*
Diesel's air and fuel mixture is ignited by high compression (no spark plugs) from the compression of the engine. Rotary's are difficult to make high compression and the shape of the combustion chamber might cause problems. Might still be possible. Diesel fuel could be used instead of gas with spark plugs but it wouldn't be a diesel engine then. The AFR of diesel is similar to gas. I don't know about vegetable oil.

Last edited by Matt Hey; Aug 21, 2005 at 10:53 AM.
Reply
Old Aug 21, 2005 | 10:52 AM
  #19  
Matt Hey's Avatar
Old School
Tenured Member 10 Years
 
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 473
Likes: 0
From: Baldwin City, KS
Originally Posted by GentlemenVII
What about steam powered rotary???, I have been making a 12a prototype for a year and a half the only problem is finding a good way to produce steam
The way to make steam is heat water in an enclosed high pressure container OR increase the pressure of hot water that is almost ready to turn to steam. Don't expect very high efficiency though.
Reply
Old Aug 22, 2005 | 09:05 PM
  #20  
nevarmore's Avatar
Senior Member
Tenured Member 05 Years
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 739
Likes: 0
From: NE Ohio
Damn, where is that link to the diesel marine use 13B when I need it.

Internal-combustion engines are nothing more than fluid pumps. Any power source that creates a force on the face of some device which then rotates a shaft can be used with minimal changes to the overall design of a motor. You could inject high pressure steam through the sparkplug holes of any engine and get some power out of it. You can squirt gasoline into a diesel and probably get it to move.

Getting somewhat back on topic, for those of you who are starting to suspect that government over-regulation is making things more expensive than they should be check out http://www.LP.org.

Moving all the way back to the topic, the supply and demand model is sticky in a controlled market. If we reduce the demand, the prices might not change because things can be adjusted by the producers, shippers, as well as the regulators.

I for one would like to see some more options in transit. I drove from home (near Akron) to Columbus all but 2 weekends this summer. Its a 2 hour drive on I-71 and about 3 hours taking the fun state routes. Either way, it costs me about $40 in fuel + 1qt of 20w50 round trip. Now from what I remember from my trip to Europe, it would've cost me around $20 to pop on a train and go that distance. My numbers are fuzzy, but I think it makes my point. I love driving my car, but sometimes I'd really just like to let someone else haul my *** around. Its cheaper for me, still profitable for someone, and better for the rest of you not sucking down my NoX and HC.
Reply
Old Aug 23, 2005 | 11:25 PM
  #21  
Pele's Avatar
Thread Starter
Right near Malloy
Tenured Member: 25 Years
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
iTrader: (28)
 
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,855
Likes: 517
From: Behind a workbench, repairing FC Electronics.
Originally Posted by nevarmore
Damn, where is that link to the diesel marine use 13B when I need it.

Internal-combustion engines are nothing more than fluid pumps. Any power source that creates a force on the face of some device which then rotates a shaft can be used with minimal changes to the overall design of a motor. You could inject high pressure steam through the sparkplug holes of any engine and get some power out of it. You can squirt gasoline into a diesel and probably get it to move.

Getting somewhat back on topic, for those of you who are starting to suspect that government over-regulation is making things more expensive than they should be check out http://www.LP.org.

Moving all the way back to the topic, the supply and demand model is sticky in a controlled market. If we reduce the demand, the prices might not change because things can be adjusted by the producers, shippers, as well as the regulators.

I for one would like to see some more options in transit. I drove from home (near Akron) to Columbus all but 2 weekends this summer. Its a 2 hour drive on I-71 and about 3 hours taking the fun state routes. Either way, it costs me about $40 in fuel + 1qt of 20w50 round trip. Now from what I remember from my trip to Europe, it would've cost me around $20 to pop on a train and go that distance. My numbers are fuzzy, but I think it makes my point. I love driving my car, but sometimes I'd really just like to let someone else haul my *** around. Its cheaper for me, still profitable for someone, and better for the rest of you not sucking down my NoX and HC.
In Europe, they have a good public transit system.

I live in the suburbs of DC, a good 30 mins south of it. Public transit only runs 10 minutes outside of DC before getting very sparse.

My office is 15 minutes south of DC, right at the edge of acceptable public transit. It's 15 minutes to drive to work. In addition, if I drive to work and home only, it's one gallon of fuel, round trip.

The cost of a Subway and bus ride one way is about the same cost of a gallon of gas. Rush hour would bring it up... Although so would the idling in the parking lot we call I-95.
Reply
Old Aug 24, 2005 | 02:57 AM
  #22  
ChrisCassette's Avatar
Junior Member
Tenured Member 05 Years
 
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
From: Germany
AFAIK saab plans to release a so called "flex fuel" car.
http://car-reviews.automobile.com/Sa...l-preview/691/

In the quest to find a greener and cleaner source of energy to power the futures automobiles, many of the worlds manufacturers have turned to electric-assist hybrids, hydrogen fuel cells or even pure electric power. Rather than putting precious dollars into research for a technology that wont be available to the public for several more years to come, Saab has devoted funds towards ethanol fuel, an clean alternative that makes the most of currently technologies.

For 2005, Saab will be offering the option of a flex-fuel 2.0-liter turbocharged inline-four motor for its 9-5 FFV (flexible fuel vehicle) luxury car. Vehicles that bear the FFV badge can run on either premium unleaded gasoline, ethanol (E85) fuel, or any percentage blend of the two stored in a single fuel tank. This is a huge step forward from dual-fuel vehicles (natural gas / gasoline), which require separate storage tanks and the use of one combustion fuel at a time.

Ethanol is a truly unique fuel for its impacts on the environmental, engine performance and personal finances. Of the commonly available fuels, including gasoline, diesel and natural gas, it is the only one eligible for tax rebates. Why? It qualifies as a renewable resource. Like the alcohol thats found in alcoholic beverages, ethanol is commercially produced from grain crops.

Also ethanol releases less carbon-based emissions than gasoline, especially greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide (CO2), one of the primary factors theoretically believed by some camps to be the cause of global warming. Interestingly enough, ethanol is one of the most carbon-neutral fuel sources available to power automobiles, being that the carbon dioxide emitted during the production and consumption of ethanol is almost equal to the amount removed from the atmosphere when the grain crops are grown.

Eco-friendly cars are usually like a double-edged sword. While the power source used may reduce harm to the environment, users usually lose out on performance eliminating driving enjoyment. This reportedly isnt the case with the 9-5 FFV. In its most widely-available E85 form, the 85 percent ethanol/gasoline blend found at many refilling stations, the fuel offers an extraordinarily high RON octane rating of 104. This compares favorably to commercially available gasoline which peaks at an average of 91 RON.

The added kick in E85s octane number allows the small, turbocharged motor to produce 180 horsepower, an improvement of 20 percent over the regular Euro-spec models 150 horsepower output. Saab claims that the extra 30 horses wont come at the expense of fuel consumption either. At low speeds there is unlikely to be any impact of the flex-fuel, however, its a totally different story at higher speeds. During testing runs, the 9-5 EFF posted a welcome 15 percent gain in fuel economy, as fuel-enrichment for motor cooling is no longer necessary when a vehicle is run on ethanol.
Reply
Old Aug 24, 2005 | 07:34 AM
  #23  
Pele's Avatar
Thread Starter
Right near Malloy
Tenured Member: 25 Years
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
iTrader: (28)
 
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,855
Likes: 517
From: Behind a workbench, repairing FC Electronics.
Originally Posted by ChrisCassette
AFAIK saab plans to release a so called "flex fuel" car.
http://car-reviews.automobile.com/Sa...l-preview/691/
So what would E85 do in a rotary, High Octane is no good in N/A engines, and I think it eats the rubber in the fuel lines.
Reply
Old Aug 24, 2005 | 06:25 PM
  #24  
Matt Hey's Avatar
Old School
Tenured Member 10 Years
 
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 473
Likes: 0
From: Baldwin City, KS
Originally Posted by Pele
So what would E85 do in a rotary, High Octane is no good in N/A engines, and I think it eats the rubber in the fuel lines.
Ethanol is not the answer for the next fuel source unless it's used to make hydrogen. Ethanol burned in an internal combustion engine barely returns more energy than the fossil fuels expended in growing the corn and processing it to ethanol in the first place. It produces less power than gasoline and the only reason it's so cheap is government subsidies and tax breaks. It can be used as an octane booster and does burn clean but "likes" water and eats some kinds of rubber. It will run in a rotary just fine (need retuned ECU) but isn't worth it unless your trying to pass emmissions.
Reply
Old Aug 27, 2005 | 09:38 AM
  #25  
moonless's Avatar
Senior Member
Tenured Member 05 Years
 
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
From: indiana
I have to agree with matt hey as far as why the price is so high. That is exactly the reason along with in the past decade we all went out and bought huge suv's and trucks. Now we are paying the price just look at it this way. My first car was a plymouth horizon that my parents passed down to me when I turned 16 it got 30 miles to a gallon and had over 200,000 miles on it. Even after doing some tuning with it exhaust and carb rejetting minor porting it still got 28 mpg. Where as my explorer has about the same mileage now with no mods and gets 15-18 mpg on a good day. We could have more fuel efficient engines that still have decent performance it just hasn't been what the buying public want's. Everyone needs that big horsepower number. Even female new car buyers statisticaly will go with more power even if they don't know one thing about a car.
Reply



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:41 PM.