When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Hello, I live in Israel where mazda never got to bring the rx models.
My friend has a rotary engine in his garage which someone brought something like 7 years ago from a working car, he's not sure what car it was taken from.
I looked at the engine, looks a little bit corrosive on the outside but nothing special.
My questions are:
Should I start this project with a 13B RE?
I'm not really sure it's a 13B RE but from what I read online it seems like that's the one (it has mounts in the middle and looks a little odd).
I want a powerful car, with available power at low and high rpms and as reliable as possible in rotary terms.
Is it true that this engine, given it truly is 13B RE, doesn't work as well at high rpms as the REW?
The engine came without the turbocharger(s?), what turbo should I get for it to work the right way?
Does the fact that the engine stood without starting for some years affect it in any way? I don't know how much it worked before it was bought by my friend.
The engine has something that looks like a fuel injection, should I try and make it work or just put some carburetors?
I read something about a pump called OMP(oil metering pump) which pumps oil into the exhaust in order to extend the engine's life.
Is it something I should look for?
I don't know. Have you ever done something like this? Swapped a different engine into a car? Do you have a workspace, can weld, tools, etc.? Or know people with those resources?
Is it true that this engine, given it truly is 13B RE, doesn't work as well at high rpms as the REW?
No. The powerband will be dictated by your turbo choice.
The engine came without the turbocharger(s?), what turbo should I get for it to work the right way?
Ideally, the stock turbocharger designed for the engine, a Hitachi HT-18. Now it sounds like availability of parts is going to be an issue for you, so a substitution may be required. And based on it being in a VW, you will probably have to build your own manifold anyway to place the turbocharger.
How much power do you want to make? What is the primary use of the car? Road racing? Daily driving? Autox?
Does the fact that the engine stood without starting for some years affect it in any way? I don't know how much it worked before it was bought by my friend.
Yes, it could have trashed the engine.
You can look through the exhaust ports and determine the condition of things fairly accurately. Check for rust, missing apex seals. Rotate the engine slowly by hand while doing this. Put a little oil in the ports to lubricate things. If you can bolt it to a transmission and turn it over with a starter, you can check compression with a regular compression tester. Remove the Schrader valve and look for 3 even bounces on each rotor above 80 PSI.
The engine has something that looks like a fuel injection, should I try and make it work or just put some carburetors?
If you are intending to turbocharge it, then EFI.
I understand that it is VERY difficult to get items shipped to Israel as the post office is almost non-existent and out of country items are subjected to intense scrutiny and fees. Whether you find a stock Mazda ECU and related equipment or try to get a standalone into the country depends on your power goals.
I read something about a pump called OMP(oil metering pump) which pumps oil into the exhaust in order to extend the engine's life.
Is it something I should look for?
The MOP is located on the left side of the front cover. It is that box with the 4 lines exiting from it. It injects a small amount of oil into the intake stream and through the rotor housing onto the apex seals. The S5 MOP is a stepper motor controlled unit. It must be used with the Mazda ECU or with a standalone that can control it. Otherwise, you can premix your fuel 0.5 oz per gallon w/2 stroke oil.
I don't know. Have you ever done something like this? Swapped a different engine into a car? Do you have a workspace, can weld, tools, etc.? Or know people with those resources? I have those resources, my brother owns an air cooled vw and Porsche garage in which I work with him.
We've never installed a non vw engine on our cars but are ready for the adventure
No. The powerband will be dictated by your turbo choice.
Ideally, the stock turbocharger designed for the engine, a Hitachi HT-18. Now it sounds like availability of parts is going to be an issue for you, so a substitution may be required. And based on it being in a VW, you will probably have to build your own manifold anyway to place the turbocharger.
How much power do you want to make? What is the primary use of the car? Road racing? Daily driving? Autox? This car is going to be my daily car, I want it strong, was thinking of something in the 230hp area but from what I understand it's more like 200
Yes, it could have trashed the engine.
You can look through the exhaust ports and determine the condition of things fairly accurately. Check for rust, missing apex seals. Rotate the engine slowly by hand while doing this. Put a little oil in the ports to lubricate things. If you can bolt it to a transmission and turn it over with a starter, you can check compression with a regular compression tester. Remove the Schrader valve and look for 3 even bounces on each rotor above 80 PSI. Well I don't really know anything about this engine, I'll go to see it again and look inside to find out how good or bad things are.
The transmission is going to be a strengthened vw transmission with an adapter made by KEP, which I don't yet have so I'll try to start it some other way
If you are intending to turbocharge it, then EFI.
I understand that it is VERY difficult to get items shipped to Israel as the post office is almost non-existent and out of country items are subjected to intense scrutiny and fees. Whether you find a stock Mazda ECU and related equipment or try to get a standalone into the country depends on your power goals. Yes it is quite expensive to get cad parts into my country, I am going to turbocharge it
The MOP is located on the left side of the front cover. It is that box with the 4 lines exiting from it. It injects a small amount of oil into the intake stream and through the rotor housing onto the apex seals. The S5 MOP is a stepper motor controlled unit. It must be used with the Mazda ECU or with a standalone that can control it. Otherwise, you can premix your fuel 0.5 oz per gallon w/2 stroke oil.
Firstly, thank you all for the engine identification!
I understand this engine is not as powerful as 13b re, but:
Is it considered a reliable engine?
Is it a good one to work with?
Also, the MOP is not an aftermarket addition? I understood I was supposed to add a non existing pump to increase engine life which indeed pumps oil into the exhaust in order to extend engine life.
Many thanks in advance, what a wonderful community you guys have here.
Liad
Firstly, thank you all for the engine identification!
I understand this engine is not as powerful as 13b re, but:
Is it considered a reliable engine?
Is it a good one to work with?
Also, the MOP is not an aftermarket addition? I understood I was supposed to add a non existing pump to increase engine life which indeed pumps oil into the exhaust in order to extend engine life.
Many thanks in advance, what a wonderful community you guys have here.
Liad
1. not as powerful as an RE? it's really not that cut and dry. suffice it to say, you can make good power with what you have.
2. generally speaking, yes, they are reliable. that said, reliability will come down to: your expectations, the support you give it (fuel, ignition, etc.), the competency of the tuner, maintenance, and of course, luck.
3. i'm not sure what you mean by "good one to work with". if you're asking if it's a good starting point, then yes.
1. not as powerful as an RE? it's really not that cut and dry. suffice it to say, you can make good power with what you have.
2. generally speaking, yes, they are reliable. that said, reliability will come down to: your expectations, the support you give it (fuel, ignition, etc.), the competency of the tuner, maintenance, and of course, luck.
3. i'm not sure what you mean by "good one to work with". if you're asking if it's a good starting point, then yes.
Actually I mean that from what I've read, there were many good things said about many Wankel engines and I didn't really see anything good said about this one.
Do you know how much the original turbo boosted? Is the 30hp difference between the engines mostly about turbos? At what RPM it boosted? Compared to the other engine we talked about, how good is it oil wise? Does it have a good oil pressure? Thanks again
200HP out of that engine is easy with the stock turbo. Actually 250HP from the stock turbo is about the limit.
Factory boost on the S5 13B is I believe 6.5 PSI or there about. On these engines, the turbo is reasonably efficient to about 12 - 13 PSI.
Internally the S5 13B is very similar to the 13B-RE. The RE is sort of a cross between the S5 13B and the 13B-REW. Either engine will be fine for you.
The S5 13B is a fine engine. It will make whatever power level you build it for and do so as reliably or unreliably (if built improperly) than the RE would. The stock turbo is very responsive due to the twin scroll design and "impact" turbine.
There is no such thing as a pump to push oil into the exhaust. It may be something lost in translation, but such a thing doesn't exist, doesn't need to exist (unless you plan on using the engine for airplane sky writing) and would be pointless (well, maybe if you wanted a smoke screen on a getaway vehicle).
The metering oil pump is installed from the factory to lubricate the apex seals.
Take a look at the factory service manual. The Factory Service Manuals for all years of RX-7 (and many other rotary cars) can be downloaded for free here: Foxed.ca - Mazda RX-7 Manuals . They contain all common service information and more, and are an essential tool for any sort of service work that needs to be performed on these cars.
Additionally, the Haynes service manual for the 1986 thru 1991 RX-7 (both turbo and NA) can be found at most local auto parts stores or purchased from any good bookstore (ISBN number 1 56392 007 7). It is only about $25 and is a great quick reference for things like this. Not only does it contain most of the information in the FSM condensed into an easy to read format, but it includes full wiring diagrams as well.
These manuals will answer 99% of service related questions for the car and if you intend to do your own repair work, you will need at least one of them. Preferably both, since the FSM is a free download. The Haynes is a good quick reference covering 99% of questions, while the FSMs show complete and detailed procedures.
200HP out of that engine is easy with the stock turbo. Actually 250HP from the stock turbo is about the limit.
Factory boost on the S5 13B is I believe 6.5 PSI or there about. On these engines, the turbo is reasonably efficient to about 12 - 13 PSI.
Internally the S5 13B is very similar to the 13B-RE. The RE is sort of a cross between the S5 13B and the 13B-REW. Either engine will be fine for you.
The S5 13B is a fine engine. It will make whatever power level you build it for and do so as reliably or unreliably (if built improperly) than the RE would. The stock turbo is very responsive due to the twin scroll design and "impact" turbine.
There is no such thing as a pump to push oil into the exhaust. It may be something lost in translation, but such a thing doesn't exist, doesn't need to exist (unless you plan on using the engine for airplane sky writing) and would be pointless (well, maybe if you wanted a smoke screen on a getaway vehicle).
The metering oil pump is installed from the factory to lubricate the apex seals.
Take a look at the factory service manual. The Factory Service Manuals for all years of RX-7 (and many other rotary cars) can be downloaded for free here: Foxed.ca - Mazda RX-7 Manuals . They contain all common service information and more, and are an essential tool for any sort of service work that needs to be performed on these cars.
Additionally, the Haynes service manual for the 1986 thru 1991 RX-7 (both turbo and NA) can be found at most local auto parts stores or purchased from any good bookstore (ISBN number 1 56392 007 7). It is only about $25 and is a great quick reference for things like this. Not only does it contain most of the information in the FSM condensed into an easy to read format, but it includes full wiring diagrams as well.
These manuals will answer 99% of service related questions for the car and if you intend to do your own repair work, you will need at least one of them. Preferably both, since the FSM is a free download. The Haynes is a good quick reference covering 99% of questions, while the FSMs show complete and detailed procedures.
So the mop pumps oil somewhere else, someone probably didn't understand it well and confused me. Thanks again, next time I post will be after I look at the apex seals to find out how good they are.
Liad
So the mop pumps oil somewhere else, someone probably didn't understand it well and confused me. Thanks again, next time I post will be after I look at the apex seals to find out how good they are.
Liad
get the reference material that Aaron Cake spoke of. in the interim, as far as the MOP is concerned, it is featured in the first photo you posted. it's the thing with the 4 lines coming off of it. each line pumps oil to a jet attached either to the lower intake or the rotor housing itself. the purpose is to keep the apex seals and sealing surfaces lubricated when the engine is running. that's the 2 cent version of it.
So the mop pumps oil somewhere else, someone probably didn't understand it well and confused me. Thanks again, next time I post will be after I look at the apex seals to find out how good they are.
Liad
The metring oil pump (visible as the thing on the front cover on the left side with 4 tubes heading up towards the top of the engine) pumps oil to two places:
1. Oil squirters located on the rotor housings just above the intake port area (you can follow the tubes to find them). This dribbles oil directly onto the apex seals as they sweep by to lubricate them.
2. Oil squirters located in the lower intake manifold, spraying into the air stream. To create a mild fuel/oil mix to lubricate the other rotor seals.
The metring oil pump (visible as the thing on the front cover on the left side with 4 tubes heading up towards the top of the engine) pumps oil to two places:
1. Oil squirters located on the rotor housings just above the intake port area (you can follow the tubes to find them). This dribbles oil directly onto the apex seals as they sweep by to lubricate them.
2. Oil squirters located in the lower intake manifold, spraying into the air stream. To create a mild fuel/oil mix to lubricate the other rotor seals.
Thanks for the answer!
UPDATE
Went to look at the engine, took some pictures tell me what you guys think.
PS
There is a video, not sure how to show you guys.
I think that engine needs to come apart. It's been sitting for a long time. There is rust visible inside. I would not attempt to start and run that engine as is.
The first picture either shows a broken 3 piece apex seal, or just a lot of carbon obscuring a good seal.
I think that engine needs to come apart. It's been sitting for a long time. There is rust visible inside. I would not attempt to start and run that engine as is.
The first picture either shows a broken 3 piece apex seal, or just a lot of carbon obscuring a good seal.
Alright, I uploaded the video of the engine maybe you'll be able to see stuff better.
1. i agree with Aaron Cake. the engine should probably come apart. it looks like at least one seal missing and if it indeed left the engine, then that probably meant bad news for it's housing as well.
1. i agree with Aaron Cake. the engine should probably come apart. it looks like at least one seal missing and if it indeed left the engine, then that probably meant bad news for it's housing as well.
2. you should turn the engine clockwise.
Does it matter if I turned it counter clockwise? It was just to look at the seals and stuff.
I guess I'll try to find another engine then because the cost of the gaskets and stuff to close the engine would cost me lots.
Thanks everybody!
200HP out of that engine is easy with the stock turbo. Actually 250HP from the stock turbo is about the limit.
Factory boost on the S5 13B is I believe....
just to add the trivia, the S5 13B was 205hp stock. Mazda made a number of small changes for the 89-91 engine (from the 86-88), the turbo manifold was revised, they added a boost control system, the IC pipes get bigger, the intake manifolds are tweaked, the air flow meter and intake boot to the turbo are improved, the ECU is faster. compression goes from 8.5 to 9.0, although the real innovation is that the combustion recess is machined so that the tolerance goes from 8.5:1 +/- .3, to 9.0 +/- .03. or basically 9.0 is the upper limit of the previous casting variation. the rotors are lighter, as is the flywheel.
the stock boost went from 6.5 to around 8, and hp goes from 183 to 205hp. response and efficiency gets better too.
the next iteration is the JC cosmo engine, the 13B-RE. the primary change is the adoption of the twin sequential turbo system, this brings hp to 225. to make room for the turbos the ports are angled differently, you can think of the previous engine but just turn the whole port/manifold up, so that the turn the manifold needs to make is the same, but it is closer to the block. the ports are revised to work in a big car with an automatic, the primary port is smaller, and the secondary is made larger. the intake is also revised again.
the FD got another set of revisions, since its a sports car, it got larger turbos, the ports revert back to something closer to the S5, the intake gets revised again, with a smaller plenum to aid response, boost is up to 9.5 at peak, and hp is up to 255 for the US/EU version. the oiling system is upgraded to match the competition engine specs.
the latest FD's got a faster ecu, and optionally a better set of turbos for the 280ps version.
12-22-15, 05:56 PM
