Justin311

LOL...these kind of debates are always entertaining - we get them in every profession, including mine, which is an Engineer. A lot of my friends who make lesser salaries make comments like "I wish I was smart enough to be an engineer and make X amount of money.".

My reply is similar to Ramys except I think Ramy was too humble in his estimate. Lets run thru the numbers....

Person A gets out of highschool and enters the workforce. For 6 years he makes a salary that is increasing annually. 30k + 33k+ 36k + 40k + 45k + 50k. That would be fairly average for an office worker IME. Total earned in 6 years = $234,000.00. Now how many of you have every penny you earned the first 6 years you worked? I'd say if you're LUCKY and SMART you saved 10%. That means you spent 234k * 0.9 = $210,000 to live over those 6 years. That pays yoru mortgage, insurance, gas, food....you get the drift.

Now Person B (Ramy) decides to go to a technical college program (premed, engineering, physics, compsci, etc). Lets say they pick a CHEAP school and only pay $15k per year tuition. Add another $5k per year books and supplies (trust me I'm being way conservative). So $20k per year for 6 years = $120k for the cost of school. OH, BUT WAIT. He still has to live too. He stil lhas to pay rent, still has to pay insurnace, still has to eat. To be equal this costs him the same amount as person A, or $210,000. And how much did he get to save? Oh yeah, NOTHING. So there gos the 10% savings. We wont even get into an ROI situation in which he could have (and would have) been MAKING money off the money he was saving. (Look up exponential earnings on investments over 50 years if you dont already know).

So now Person B has debt of:

$234,000 (cost of living + no savings) + $120,000 (cost of school - Ramy paid WAY more than that, I guarantee) = Grand Total $354,000.

So on the first day of year 7, Person A starts at 0 debt, person B starts at $354,000.

I will leave it to those who are intelligent enough to have followed the math this far to make the connection that person B now has to start making payments on this debt...and how many years that will take to dig out of the hole.

Oh, and if you went to premed you're only 60% done.

If anybody can argue that professionals have it "easier" in any way shape or form, then they probably were smart enough to go to lawschool and they would have gone to school and wouldn't argue it anyways so :p :p

(FYI one of my teammembers has a bachelors in Mech Engr, a Masters in Business Admin, and a Law degree. He works 2 jobs just to make his school payment!)

optionii

hey, Ramy.. I know you are a busy guy, I am looking for tons of carbon fiber interior parts, and I emailed you a while back a ago, but haven't hear anything back yet. Please let me know. thanks

wishbanzai

I'm a lab tech. Knowing this will probably take my wing longer to get here, won't it.

Nameless

Sounds rough and complicated Ramy. I already told you to come work with me.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Geby, check your email.

Justin, nice breakdown. We didn't factor in the additional $180,000 (national average) of debt that you incur in medical school. So that brings it up to $534,000, give or take a few thousand

But seriously, the money is the LEAST of my concerns. It's my TIME. Time, time, time. I would give ANYTHING to be able to work only 5 days a week. Having a weekend (or any 2 days outta the week off) is such an amazing blessing, ppl simply don't realize. You know that before this extended branch hours to 7pm, it used to take me 2 weeks to be able to catch the bank during business hours? Man was I sore about that lol.

optionii, what name and email addy you email me w/? I'll check it out once I get a chance (I'm currently a bit backed up).

Hey Gordon! I'm tryin to get to where you're at big man haha

Hey Paul! Man...LONG time! Man, I feel real bad. I have 1 or 2 emails from you that I never responded to. And I keep thinkin "man I gotta get back to Paul" I'm gonna make sure I do it today sometime =-/

BTW, don't tempt me like that man. You know that before medicine, before all this, what I REALLY REALLY wanted to do? I wanted to do aftermarket car design & (performance) development. And I mean for some serious exotic performance company like RennTech or Gemballa or somethin hehe. But I figured even if I managed to survive all the math and physics you gotta go through to become an engineer (unlikely in my case), what are the chances of getting onto such a specialized team/company in the first place? Next to nil unless you personally know someone. So when you first made that comment about workin w/ you a while back (which I took entirely as a joke/comment in passing btw), that spark hidden wayyy deep down inside came back to life, even for just a moment lol. You can't tease me like that man lol. Cuz if you're serious...it's never too late for a career change lol. That's the stuff dreams are made of...

wishbanzai

Good golly Miss Molly!! I don't even rate a reply!!
Feed Type II wing from March

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Dude...relax. I didn't understand what your post was about. Kinda vague. Remember, I have NO idea who is who. You guys email me w/ real names, and I can't correlate them w/ forum usernames. So plz don't assume I know who you are and what you're talking about.

Re: your FEED wing, it's on the shipment that's already in the ocean right now...it'll be arriving shortly.

Nameless

I think our company can use more people like you... And I'm being honest about that. If you can pull off the hours you are doing now, you can easily work here =) Bad part is you'd have to replace me haha and I'd be out of a job.

Speaking of which I was reading some stuff on forum... ahh well... let me send you a non business related email just to talk.

Don't worry about those previous emails. I'm actually thinking that it is time to get back into an FD (just like you predicted haha)... we'll see. But that means I have to cut spending on my daily FC.

str8ryd

iTrader: (473)

Ramy, I posted in your "hood" thread in the F/S section. I need to talk to you asap. Please don't sell this hood before speaking with me. PLEASEEE .

jic

iTrader: (1)

ramy...i need hoes

get back to me with the price quote

LT1RX7

I have an enginnering/economics degree and I would make a wager that I make more than you in my current job

I dont know what mecca of high paying job lands you live in but I grew up and live inbetween Baltimore and DC (A high economic earning area) and no kid fresh out of high school is starting at $30k a year working in an office job unless SHE is super hot.

Second NO ONE is getting 10% raises yearly as a high school graduate.

Uh no and no again. First off UMD tuition is $6,759 per semester so $13500 for a mjor institution. Books/lab/supplies are $2kish per year. So I feel $15k per year undergrad is much more accurate x 4 is $60k. $20k per year for grad school and you are at $100k.

If you arent working during the summer and/or during the school year then I have no sympathy. You are a lazy mooch cause college (especially undergrad) is EASY....and yes I was a engineering major so I can speak of a "harder major".

Where does a college kid live that the "cost to live" is $234k? Second the $210k you are saying that guy spent to live is not his cost to live it would also include things like TAXES etc that college kids dont pay.

I would say the number is more in the ballpark of $140k in the hole if you use your inflated numbers.

Come tell me that when both person A and B are 50 years old........

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

I'm not gonna get into it with you LT1 because you obviously have a bone to pick and I'm simply not interested (not to mention that this is NOT the venue for that, and I'm being *very* patient, so instead of worrying about people assuming so much, how about you worry about people being courteous? )

BUT, I'll tell ya this. I have quite a few friends who got picked up right outta high school making right around $30K. It definitely happens if you have prior work experience (esp. with that company) or if you're simply hot stuff (skillwise).

Also, UMD is FAR from representative. I went to Penn State, which is a STATE SCHOOL (so cheaper than full private schools), and it was WELL over your $13,000 estimate. During my interview with GW, they were asking $34,000 per year. And you should know better; they're right in our backyard (I'm local to ya too). Georgetown is really expensive too. Take a stab at how much AU is as well. Or even UMD if you're out of state. I could go on and on. The AVERAGE college nowadays is well over your super low $13,000 cost. Some are even as high as $54,000 a year. I may have left college years ago, but I still have an idea of how much tuition is...unless you're referring to the '80s or somethin? Also, most ppl going for higher education must choose their undergraduate school wisely...so going out of state is usually the rule, rather than the exception. A few concrete #s to throw your way...

UMD (out-of-state): $20,805
Citation: http://www.umsa.umd.edu/usm/adminfin.../UMCP2008.html

American University: $30,958
Citation: http://admissions.american.edu/publi...D=133&docID=52

GWU: $39,210
Citation: http://gwired.gwu.edu/finaid-n/CostofAttendance/

Georgetown: $35,568
http://www9.georgetown.edu/finaff/st...07listing.html

Penn State (out-of-State): $24,708
Citation: http://www.psu.edu/studentaid/costs/...s.shtml?reload

Johns Hopkins: $35,900
Citation: http://www.jhu.edu/finaid/prosp_stud_cost.html

UVA (out-of-state): $27,940
Citation: http://virginia.edu/Facts/Glance_Tuition.html

Hmmm...I kinda see a pattern here... And I haven't even messed w/ Ivy League schools yet haha.

Oh and these are costs of TUITION ALONE. Not including room & board, books, living expenses, etc.

~Ramy

optionii

Hey... Ramy
my email address is bruyeh@yahoo.com. I believed I sent you a pm as well. Please see what you can find for me. thanks

Archie

iTrader: (-1)

Anybody who says medicine or being an MD is easy is a complete idiot. Period. As for MDs being payed well... area and specialty are key factors. Finally, hospitals overcharge and then insurance companies negotiate. They never pay the full sum. That's why an emesis basin costs $50 and Sodium Chloride I.V. drips cost $150.

for medical school. I hope to go after my stint in the military.

Juiceh

iTrader: (4)

LoL! Ramy, be careful using terms like shortly. Some folks think that may indicate a much sooner time than you think.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Juiceh I'm serious. I'm actually expecting the boat to arrive shortly (not 24 hrs, but in a week or two). And you know what that means for you, right???

~Ramy

RedR1

iTrader: (5)

Leave my profession out of this

RedR1

iTrader: (5)

I've worked for "the blues" for over 5 years now. Ramy isn't stretching the truth too far in either way. Office procedure code 99214 has a very low reimbursement rate to begin with. . . . On average. . . average. . . it pays out at $10.00 - $30.00 depending on the policy (Higher for an HMO and if it's the patient's PCP, less if it's a PPO policy). There are wildcard circumstances where it may pay more, but that variable is coupled with what services or operation was performed, etc. Also with the diagnosis billed, modifiers, etc.

Factor in that most doctors don't bill the patient up front for any co-pay or anything like that until they get the explanation of benefits from their insurance (if they participate with the insurance). . . . then couple it with patient's that never read their mail and/or just plain flat out don't pay bills . . . once the provider (Ramy, in this case) gets his $10.00 check from said insurance, and the patient owes a $20.00 co-pay which they won't pay. . . . . . where-in is the profit? Ramy just made $10.00 for 30 minutes of his time for someone who won't pay him the remainder. . . .

Being a doc now-a-days, like Ram-Ram said, isn't as profitable as it used to be. there is money, yes, but compared to the debt they go in, they won't get to enjoy the fruits of their labors until the midlife crisis hits.

that's when Ramy will wanna sell his FD and get a convertable vette

LT1RX7

Back on topic any word on pricing for the knightsport sideskirts I sent you 2 weeks ago?

RedR1

iTrader: (5)

Not picking sides or anything, just shedding light on the situation from an insurance company's POV.

the $50k were more likely than not the facility charges. The actual attending physician's bill was MUCH less, I can safely say was probably much less. I've never seen a physician's bill outweigh a facility bill on any occasion. Now, from an insurance standpoint, the $50k hospital bill. . . in terms of payment, will get split in half, and then divied up from there. We only pay x amount of room and board, and may even deny all room and board codes depending on if the patient's policy covers private room rates, etc, etc. We also only pay pennies on the hundreds for some medications. And in other respects, we may pay nothing at all and it will all go to the patient if they failed to obtain the necessary authorizations prior to services being rendered. The only chance the patient has, is if the provider appeals the decision with xxxxxx pages of medical records. . . and even that chance is slim.

then you have the doctors fee's. . . and if the hospital didn't get an authorization to render services, then the doc is screwed bc he operated under the assumption that the hospital would have gotten the auth to rendered such a service. . . . so Doc Ramy's paycheck is dependant upon something he has no real control over, just a trust that the facility won't slip up. . . .

Sure, there is money to be made, but there are so many variables to get said money, that it seems hardly worth the effort. however, some people do it bc they enjoy the challenge, and making a difference in someone's life.

RedR1

iTrader: (5)

Whoops, lol. i'm just reading and posting to shed light. RedR1 vanishes back into the shadows

Juiceh

iTrader: (4)

Thats just it, I think for most people "shortly" is days or up to a week but not more than a week though.

My Hot Asain bride will be delivered to my house very soon?!

wanklin

iTrader: (2)

I may sound like an idealist, but I think anyone who pics his career for $$ is making the wrong decision. Ramy has chosen the profession that he has because he is passionate about it, not because it is lucrative or easy. Apparently he is passionate enough to sacrifice a hell of a lot of his time and has made a weighted decision to move forward; that's something I respect a hell of a lot more than some silver-spooned shmoozer working in a profession that he has no real interest in simply to fund a conspicuous life-style. This is not to say that there aren't a hell of a lot of more demanding jobs out there.

I don't know why we're comparing figures here. Net worth doesn't mean squat if you're not happy with your life.

Regarding higher education: 90% of the college students I meet downright don't belong in college as far as I am concerned. This point became crystal clear once I was introduced to GROUP WORK. My rat-race colleagues who are just in it for the piece of paper are worthless leaches as far as I am concerned. It is always refreshing to meet self-actualizers like Ramy, and others on this forum, who have enough ***** and persistence to go after what they really want, irreverent of what others think.

kung stew

Ramy,

Good choice! Despite the horrible hours and shaky reimbursement, I'm in my PGY-5 year as an otolaryngology (ENT) resident and wouldn't even THINK about another career. What type of medicine are you planning on practicing?

-Stew

PS- any idealism in this post may be the result of finishing a 17-hour straight surgery this morning followed by rounds, ER consults, etc. My perspective may be skewed a titch. I'll hate my job tomorrow.

dradon03

iTrader: (2)

Looking at medicine makes me so much happier to stay in Fina/Econ.

Manage the portfolios of people like Ramy

Props to MD's, those people are crazy in my eyes work all the time!