TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

I hope this isn't a stupid question, but why can't we add more steering rack spacers at the tie rod and having even more range on our steering racks? Are we running out of teeth, or will the seals be pushed too far? Just curious. Would like to get some more range on my rack.

driftfcbuckey

iTrader: (8)

the rack itself only moves so far. the spacers just throw the tierods further - lock, to lock for the same amount of teeth on the rack. the spacers just extend the tie rods out. they dont allow something to not hit, and then over extend the rack.

with that said im not sure how it will feel but i was going to do this too when i extend my LCA.

I fc3SLIDE

iTrader: (2)

i did a quarter inch ive read that anything more than that you dont really have to many threads to thread it back in... powered by max rack spacers are also 1/4 in long.. you wont notice a difference visually but while driving its pretty impressive over stock angle

I fc3SLIDE

iTrader: (2)

oh and make sure you use loctite when putting it back together

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the reply, but I want to confirm something. I use the eyecandy tie rods that basically have the spacer built into them but allow the rod to still fully screw into the rack. They are awesome, I wonder if he or someone could make some more. The "spacer" allows the rack to move further because it isn't stopped by the tie rod end hitting the rack as soon as it would have without it. I remember eyecandy saying that you would not want to add a spacer to his already spaced tie rod because it was the max you could do, I am just wondering, what is the reason that is the max? What is hitting next, or are we running out of teeth.




[QUOTE=Turbo II Rotor;9415412]The Eyecandy tie rods have a longer distance between the inner threads and the bump stops on them so it's like having the spacer machined in.

Can you use the spacer? Sure, but it isn't going to give you more angle. It will just space your tie rods out.
[\quote]

Basically why, what is stopping the spacer, and the tie rod (with the spacer built in) from falling into the rack more, is what I am asking.

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Not mine, just as a reference. It seems like it would be pretty easy to add more teeth if that was the limiting factor.

stevensimon

iTrader: (11)

its teeth and seal. if you cut extra teeth into it then they are going to tear the seal and your rack will ooze nazty ps fluid all over.

not sure why you would want to modify racks though. knuckles are easier and proven.

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

I already have knuckles , I want MOAR anglessss. I don't want to make the knuckles shorter because the steering is already sensitive enough. It would be perfect if I could just add a little bit more range in the rack.

I fc3SLIDE

iTrader: (2)

just read up on some pro **** if you can enter backwards then thats plenty of angle

driftfcbuckey

iTrader: (8)

yea dude cutting extra teeth would be the only way to "allow" the rack to move more before hitting the stops. basically adding longer tierods just throws the knuckle further with each tooth of the rack as compared to stock.

you can buy individual threaded spacers from mazdatrix. the unthreaded spacer/washers you can only do so much like stated otherwise it's sketchy and you only get 3 turns or so when threading them into the rack/tie rod. if you have the thread in spacers with stock tie rods like im running you can get away with a DMAX ring spacer on each side of the threaded ends to give you enough threads to safely tighten everything down.

i was thinking of doing the stacked thread in spacers when i extend the LCA. if you do it before i do tell me how it feels. there arent many FC's out here right now and i'm 1 of 2 other dudes drifting FC's in vegas so there is really no support here at all...

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

lol, not sure what is going on in that head of yours, but I think we are on a different page on what tie rods and spacers do. It's ok though.

I too am working on the extended LCA, we should talk, I have some interesting ideas I am going to try when this season end here in a couple weeks.

driftfcbuckey

iTrader: (8)

you have modified tie rods that have the spacer built in correct?

i'm talking about stock tierods that are shorter with adding the extra thread in spacer that comes with supernow, DMAX, Stance, GP sports etc.

lol you must've read it wrong. it's hard to take like 30mins and put everything into an easy to comprehend write up everytime someone asks so i always cut corners. i've done this 40 times over and it's not something i'm proud to say but i do know these cars like the back of my hand when it comes to actual hands on wrenching/repairing.

leftcoastdrifter

iTrader: (17)

Putting more spacers/shims in will run your columns gear into the racks "un-toothed" portion. Mine already started to hit it when my alignment was off lock to lock. Extended lower ball joints looks like the way to go from here. I know some guys in Medford, Or. that extended theirs 1.5 inches and claim it works great but I haven't seen that for myself yet. I'll probably try it now that my boss lets me use the TIG for personal use.

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

I assume you mean longer in the inner tie rod with a spacer, because total tie rod length is determined by your alignment.

throws knuckle further = tie rod travel
each tooth of the rack = how much you are turning the wheel = input

I don't think longer tie rods (or adding a shim) changes the ratio (tie rod travel to actual steering input) at all actually. If I am wrong, could you explain why, because I don't see why your input sensitivity would change with any tie rod changes. X amount of input will move the rack y, with spacer, or shorter or longer tie rods.

"i'm talking about stock tierods that are shorter with adding the extra thread in spacer that comes with supernow, DMAX, Stance, GP sports etc."

Would be the same thing, and still doesn't change the ratio of input to output.

All the spacers (or ones with spacers built in like mine) does is allow the rack to not be stopped by the tie rod inner hitting the rack as early in the racks travel. That is it. It serves no other purpose to to increase your racks MAX travel. Ratio is the same, the only change in output per turn of the wheel (input) is when you do knuckles. That is why knuckles make everything quicker, and you are able to go much further and quicker with the same max rack travel (input).

Unless I am still reading you wrong? If so please explain when you have some time.

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

This will not add angle, but it will add clearance.

How far was your rack off? Adding 1 more tooth or enough to allow the rack to move another 1/4 of an inch would be like adding another spacer. That is a big deal, especially with knuckles.

leftcoastdrifter

iTrader: (17)

I didn't mean it like that. I meant that you get more positive camber and contact patch at full lock since your increasing your negative camber in the neutral position. That being said it allows for more angle by letting you use your knuckles and spacers to their full potential. IE, clearing the lower control arm and chassis. Assuming you have a lower offset wheel. So yes, you don't get more angle, you just get to use more.

I don't know for sure how far off the alignment was, it was about a year later that I took my rack out and apart again to check some stuff out. Thats when I noticed the wear mark.

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Correct?

driftfcbuckey

iTrader: (8)

i didnt fully read the whole post - im pretty tired from drifting.

but where youre confused is you think the tierods bottom out on the rack limiting the rack correct?
"All the spacers (or ones with spacers built in like mine) does is allow the rack to not be stopped by the tie rod inner hitting the rack as early in the racks travel."

this is not true. with/without tierods on the rack it will still hit the internal bump stops (the teeth inside will stop where there are no more teeth to tread)

all the tie rods do is throw the spindle (when bolted to both sides obviously) back and forth. the rack bottoms out yes - but not from the tie rods hitting the rack itself and stopping it.

it's easier if you just go jack the front of your car up, pull the boots off and go look at it a few times and thow it back and forth to watch what happens. im way too sleepy to give you a solid answer right now but that to me is where it seems like you are confused about how it works.

Howru

iTrader: (25)

In your drawings the red spacers will not go into the rack.

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Hmmmmmm, I think they do. We will see tonight.

If ours are anything like s13s: (from http://www.driftworks.com/forum/43028-post2.html)

""""This is where the rack stops normally. The end of the tie rod hits the big flat surface which doesnt allow the rack to move any further.




This is how far the rack will actually go(limited by teeth on rack and not by the tie rod)


If you notice the second pic the rack will actually go in a little more. So now you say well how do I modify it so I can get more angle. Simple get some spacers. """"

driftfcbuckey

iTrader: (8)

ours are not like s13s. i know what youre saying with how they bottom out.

on manual FC racks i believe the right side does bottom out on the rack but power racks do not. i have friends who think cutting the ends of their racks off gets them more angle but idk....

check it out. i could be wrong, but ive spent a **** load of time under the front of the car swapping spindles sets, adding washers, trying to fit S13 spacers etc all to do this same thing. the setup i found out on my own is the same as JTPs for the most part. just stock tie rods + inner tie rod spacers + 2 DMAX spacers on each side of the tierod/spacers + some washers to get that little bit extra.

someone was saying there is a limiting ring, or washer or some thing inside the rack that once removed makes the power rack react like a manual and not have a bunch of resistance. if you de-power it post some photos so i can mess with it.

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Maybe my rack is special? (power) My huge spacer goes deep into the rack.

Showing spacer and inner tie rod.



Another angle showing how deep the inner tie rod has to go before bottoming out.



Showing that my inner tie rod is definitely hitting the rack. (Can't see the flat spots on it at all)



This means that the spacer is definitely inside the rack.

Yes, if there were still teeth to use it would be. This would be a way of making sure you are using every last bit of your teeth, the inner tie rods would never be what stops it.


I am NOT going to de-power my rack. With the F-body power steering pump's high flow compared to the FC, the steering is super light and quick. Without it my arms would be done in 2 or 3 of the 14 corner track I run. I drive a lot of the track with 1 hand like a bus driver. (bad habit I am trying to break.)

driftfcbuckey

iTrader: (8)

yea dude break that habit. lol thats weird. i need to go loook at mine. if this is the case i'm going to machine some super small spacers. word up!

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Damn you guys! You made me feel like I was going crazy! Turns out the LS1 owner is the only sane one.

Glad this is settled. I am going to take a spare rack of mine apart this off season and see what is stopping it from going further. May just have a machine shop make a whole new longer rod that wont require a spacer, and has more teeth. We will see!

Thanks,
~Tweak

leftcoastdrifter

iTrader: (17)

You'll probably barely even feel it if you de-powered your rack. I don't even notice it while drifting, just street driving and even then it's not bad at all. I only run a 215-45-17 up front which obviously helps a bit.