Bwek

iTrader: (4)

I find myself thinking Alot about doing a Triple master cylinder setup A reverse swing with a brake balance beam with a manual adjustment

Personally I'd love to do new brake lines though the whole car Yes it will be tracked alot but it will also be driven on the street, ive never driven a car with manual brakes and was wondering what would it be like?

Or should I just go Simple with a Wilwood Bias adjustment Valve?

Id love to read about the pros and cons Yes i know its mostly hard core track cars that Run a manual brake setup

The Triple master cylinder Pedal set up is $197, the remote bias adjust is $50 and ea remote mount master is $66

2Fierce

iTrader: (7)

I think you are an idiot.

Gurew

iTrader: (4)

ouch harsh....

um i have those pedals with 3 master cylinders, remote bias adjuster, for sale...

its all brand spankin new, ive ran them in other cars and they are pretty nice esp with a big brake kit...very positive feel


ill ship it to canada,

23Racer

I have both installed in my Cougar because they do different things. The dual master with balance bar keeps the fluid flow and pressures the same for both the front and rear systems. The balance bar changes the time and leverage being applied to either the front or rear system. This allows you to adjust down the front braking force and move the force to the rear in wet or slippery conditions or if you have great tires and pads and you don't need to trail brake, you can move the braking force to the front. Also all the calipers still see the total master fluid pressure so the total 4 corner clamping loads remain at optimum.

The bias valve reduces the master cylinders pressure to the rear calipers. This reduces the clamping capability of the rear calipers and in effect gives you proportionately more front braking action. This is at the cost of total braking capability.

In my Cougar, I use the balance bar to change braking effect as my fuel load goes down or as a mid race crutch to get the pig to turn into slow corners by allowing more braking force in the rear which helps rotate the car.

I use the rear Bias Adjuster when the tires or track conditions are such that no matter what I do with the Balance Bar, I still am locking up the inside rear tire under braking.

By the way, on my race RX7 I dont use either and I have never really felt the need to with stock calipers and Hawk Blues on the front and Hawk Blacks on the rear.

Eric

rx7racerca

iTrader: (1)

I can't really speak to the wisdom or merits of your proposed setup - but finding out how unassisted brakes feel is relatively easy. Undo the vacuum line to your booster and cap it. Go for a cautious, short drive - you'll find the feel is excellent, and the effort startling, at least initially.
I remember cars with no power-brakes from when I was young - don't miss that, they can be a bear on the street.

Gurew

iTrader: (4)

eh i disagree....unplugging the vacuum line isnt the same as aftermarket "manual brakes"...they are much easier on the leg esp with the pedal sets that cause more leverage

rx7racerca

iTrader: (1)

Well, I did say I can't speak directly to his proposed setup - and I realize unplugging the vacuum is different than a system designed to be unassisted out of the box. But having driven cars from the days no power assist was standard, I can't say it seems a good choice for the street - fully realizing the irony that it used to be the norm going back far enough. But so were 4-wheel drums, once (had those, too - unequivocal suck there), and before that cable brakes and single wheel or single-axle brakes.

Unlike the track, where your braking is relatively predictable and consistent, the street isn't always. Would it be unlivable - probably not. But I don't think I'd want to go that way in a car I drove on the street regularly. If you don't drive it a lot, maybe not a big deal.

2Fierce

iTrader: (7)

Guys, I already told him what he needed to hear.

Bwek

iTrader: (4)

Rx7racer I get what you are saying but In all honesty An rx7 master brake cylinder is setup to be Power assisted so I dont think that would be entirely accurate

23racer Interesting take on using Both

whats the effort Like? I want to make my car as simple as possible with no Power assist in it Im going to run a stock T2 motor with omp delete and water injection for when intake temps get high

I'd like to get the weight of the car down as much as possible and make the car as simple as possible

Safo Shaaat Up

2Fierce

iTrader: (7)

you wanna reduce weight, why dont u find a treadmill...and use it.

Bwek

iTrader: (4)

Shut up fatty go order your 2 double big macs with extra cheese

Gurew

iTrader: (4)

lol treadmill and purchase my pedal set...

2Fierce

iTrader: (7)

yo wanna go to taco bell??

Bwek

iTrader: (4)

Mikey mikey jeez

Pm me a price on that pedal set

charger-

iTrader: (1)

Don't do it on a street car. You are going to save barely any weight in doing this. You don't need that much adjustability/minor weight shaving on a car that will still see the street. Not to mention the insurance implications if you ever get in an accident, and they find out that you removed the power assisted brakes. Just add the proportioning valve.

23Racer

I would suggest using thr power brakes for the RX7 if you are only going to run 1 master cylinder. I disconnected the booster on my RX7 on the track and I found that the leverage provided by the stock pedal setup wasn't good enough and the car was a bear to drive even after the pads warmed up. After I reconnected the booster, I could modulate the brakes better again and I could feel what the wheels were doing better.

On my Cougar, it runs the full Tilton pedal setup, the brake leverage is totally different and the brakes are easier to modulate than the stock RX7 setup with a disconnected booster. When the pads are hot and working in the Cougar, I can feel every little nuance in the brakes and tire grip and it works well. It does require a lot more force than the stock RX7 system with booster.

It may mean I am lazy, but I have always preferred running the RX7 with Power Brakes and Steering. It keeps me fresher for longer. Now I can't run power steering, but I do run power brakes even with the ITB setup that I have on the car now.

Eric

Bwek

iTrader: (4)

I'm not doing the triple master for weight savings. I'd do it for the brake pedal Feel and less vacuum lines and the overall emptying of the engine bay

i'm mainly going to be driving the car to and from the track and maybe on the nicer days in the summer id drive it on the street

i'm just concerned about the effort about it, its kind of like going from power steering to Non you can feel soo much more in the steering wheel and isnt that bad once you're used to it

i'm wondering if its the same with the brakes once you're used to it, it isn't that bad??

Also I should say it's not a full trackcar in wheel to wheel racing it'll be for events like Cscs Or open track days

Gurew

iTrader: (4)

provided you arent a chicken with chicken legs...they work great...the pedal sets have higher leverage over stock...hence the reason why unhooking your vacuum line on a stock car ISNT the same as true manual brakes....


true manual brakes are effin awesome!

charger-

iTrader: (1)

You are contradicting what you said earlier. So weight is out the window. Well a triple master setup isn't going to make things simpler either. Its more complicated, there are more fittings, more lines, etc. So there is one less vacuum line with the triple, big deal.

There are lots of things you can do to the car to make it faster before considering this, IMO.

Bwek

iTrader: (4)

I feel it would be simpler than Plumbing in a brake Bias valve with the old lines vs making all new lines with a real Bias adjustment

Charger, Do you have one of these setups?

2Fierce

iTrader: (7)

dave, read the first reply to his thread, and then you will realize the truth.

charger-

iTrader: (1)

I guess if the old lines are crusty than this would be true!

None of my cars currently have triple masters, my dedicated track car build will once it gets to that stage. I do have a lot of experience with both formula cars and touring cars with these setups, both wrenching and driving.

23Racer

I don't understand what is being asked. I have been racing with these dual master setups for years with RX7's, Mustangs, tubeframe cars and WC cars and they do work, but are they needed and even beneficial on a street/ track car.

My stock RX7 setup is more than fine for track days, lapping, Time Attack and even road racing. If you set the car up right with the correct pads and ducting to keep temps under control, you can easily run 3 hours at Mosport with the stock calipers on the car. I am running the stock setup on my RX7 and have for over 10 years. No muss, no fuss and I can pull 1:37's out of it all day long. Al has a stock setup with a bias valve and I doubt that he adjusted it more than once a year.

If you are in the low 1:30's at Mosport, then I would look at upgrading the calipers and then you need to replace the stock setup to a double master with balance bar as you need it to return the front to rear proportioning to a more appropriate level. If you are running a stock caliper setup on your car, a dual master setup is tremendous overkill and I believe that the time, $$$$ and effort could be spent on far more important things.

I would suggest that rather than believing anybody who is giving you an opinion on the internet, get Carroll Smith's Prepare to Win book. In it he has a complete section on the ability of brakes to lower your laptimes. The whole Prepare to ......... series is considered standard reading for motorsport engineers. If you can't find a book, it says that laptimes are only minimally effected by increasing brake performance beyond what is required to stop the car safely. You should only upgrade the system when you are burning the brakes off the car and have exhausted all other means to improve the functionality.

However, if your goal is to spent a ton of $$$$ and time getting a dual master system working on a stock caliper setup, you need to really honest with yourself, am I doing this for the cool factor or do I really need it when I am basically running a stock brake system on my car (pads and rotors not included. Sticking a brake bias valve in means that you have to bend 2 lines and remove the stock rear caliper bias valve from the system. Easy peasy.

Eric

Bwek

iTrader: (4)

Thanks guys lots of really good information, I'm going to find those carol Shelby books

Bwek

iTrader: (4)

My whole thing is that last year I could easily get my front brakes smoking in a 2 min drive using brembo blanks and hawk hp+ pads with 205 all seasons.... The rotors would turn blue so I'd like to figure out a brake set up