This Is Why Al and I Are Concerned About Lapping Day Cars
07-14-11, 02:59 PM
#1
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
This Is Why Al and I Are Concerned About Lapping Day Cars
Read this post about what just happened at Mosport. I understand its a bike, but it can happen to anyone at any time;
http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=22993
This is why Al and I get concerned when we read about guys doing laps in the low 30's at Mosport without what is considered to be the minimum race safety equipment. Read the reports and the threads and seriously reflect on what would happen if you popped a tire cresting Turn 2 or somebody ahead of you has spun and is sitting crossways on the track.
It really makes sense to putoff that new low drag turbo setup with bigger intercoolers and use that money to put some safety in your cars. Minimum 6 point cage and proper seat/ harness setup
Eric
http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=22993
This is why Al and I get concerned when we read about guys doing laps in the low 30's at Mosport without what is considered to be the minimum race safety equipment. Read the reports and the threads and seriously reflect on what would happen if you popped a tire cresting Turn 2 or somebody ahead of you has spun and is sitting crossways on the track.
It really makes sense to putoff that new low drag turbo setup with bigger intercoolers and use that money to put some safety in your cars. Minimum 6 point cage and proper seat/ harness setup
Eric
07-14-11, 03:21 PM
#2
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One of the planned things for my car is a cage I would love to get a proper harness in my car but I really don't want to drive on the street with a helmet lol
07-14-11, 03:33 PM
#3
Gotta agree with you Eric; when I hear some of the laptimes and front straight speeds being achieved by street cars at lapping days here in Calgary at Race City (250+ kmh on the front straight, laptimes on r-comps in the low 1:30s-high 1:20s, exceeding what many classes of race-prepped cars with fully safety equipment do on the same track), it's just a matter of time before instead of cars seriously damaged, it's a driver or passenger.
It's even becoming an issue in autocross; accidents major and minor with Alberta clubs have become relatively common where once they were years between occurrences, with cars leaving the courses at high-speeds and hitting curbs, trees, fences, and other objects common around the venues typical of autocross. As a long-time course designer, I can say it's become hard to accommodate the levels of performance many common street cars are achieving. Where once 300+hp was pretty exotic, and certainly not much seen in cars showing up for autocross, now it is common in many affordable coupes and sedans - or easily attainable with a cat-back and ecu flash, and other easy mods. Safety has to be paramount - and the performance levels of contemporary cars may require raising the bar on required safety gear at all levels of track activities.
It's even becoming an issue in autocross; accidents major and minor with Alberta clubs have become relatively common where once they were years between occurrences, with cars leaving the courses at high-speeds and hitting curbs, trees, fences, and other objects common around the venues typical of autocross. As a long-time course designer, I can say it's become hard to accommodate the levels of performance many common street cars are achieving. Where once 300+hp was pretty exotic, and certainly not much seen in cars showing up for autocross, now it is common in many affordable coupes and sedans - or easily attainable with a cat-back and ecu flash, and other easy mods. Safety has to be paramount - and the performance levels of contemporary cars may require raising the bar on required safety gear at all levels of track activities.
07-14-11, 03:35 PM
#4
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
If the cage is designed properly, your head should be able to pass underneath all the bars without contacting them. I had to drop my drivers seat down and towards the center of the car, as well as recline it to almost like a formula car level, to get my giant cranium with a helmet on underneath the bars.
All you would need to do then would be to add proper rated cage padding, not that pretty yellow, red and blue soft foam stuff, on every close surface and you would be okay on the street. When you come by, I will make sure that I have my RX7 at the house and you can see what we had to do to get a proper seat and cage relationship and fit. Anything is possible.
Eric
All you would need to do then would be to add proper rated cage padding, not that pretty yellow, red and blue soft foam stuff, on every close surface and you would be okay on the street. When you come by, I will make sure that I have my RX7 at the house and you can see what we had to do to get a proper seat and cage relationship and fit. Anything is possible.
Eric
07-14-11, 04:34 PM
#5
Go Hard....or Go Home
This photo is quite dramatic and not for the faint of heart. I believe the crash happened on the weekend at a hill climb in Italy. Keep in mind this is a race car that crashed head on into a mountain side at about 200kmh..................Now, how many of you have stated that you have gone faster at Mosport. Mosport has reinforced concrete walls all around it...just like a mountain side.
The picture was taken just after the crash and now has the body blurred, the original picture did not............The harness.....broken/missing/snapped who knows, the Recaro containment seat bent, the rollcage twisted quite badly. Definately makes me sit back and think about my car and the speeds it can attain. Like Eric I have spent the last month redesigning the inside of my car, changing the rollbars, harness mounts and harness itself, as you definately get what you pay for in that department.
The picture was taken just after the crash and now has the body blurred, the original picture did not............The harness.....broken/missing/snapped who knows, the Recaro containment seat bent, the rollcage twisted quite badly. Definately makes me sit back and think about my car and the speeds it can attain. Like Eric I have spent the last month redesigning the inside of my car, changing the rollbars, harness mounts and harness itself, as you definately get what you pay for in that department.
07-14-11, 06:12 PM
#6
I decided in the spring I'm not tracking my car until the roll bar is put in. Being a convertible, I think I need that safety measure should anything catastrophic happen on the track. It won't be a super-duper strong bar I don't think I will need much more protection - the car is still NA after all. What are your comments on a bar like this one? Maybe I will have to add some support to it if you guys say its not much more than something to look at.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cspivakphoto/5938541660/http://www.flickr.com/photos/cspivakphoto/5937985273/http://www.flickr.com/photos/cspivakphoto/5937985249/http://www.flickr.com/photos/cspivakphoto/5937985249/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cspivakphoto/5938541660/http://www.flickr.com/photos/cspivakphoto/5937985273/http://www.flickr.com/photos/cspivakphoto/5937985249/http://www.flickr.com/photos/cspivakphoto/5937985249/
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07-14-11, 07:40 PM
#8
Go Hard....or Go Home
To drive a car at Mosport at the 1:29 mark with no proper safety equipment is totally nuts in my opinion. I wouldn't drive my race car knowing it could do a 1:29 without a host of changes to my cage etc. In my opinion that equates to taking a bike out with no helmet, leathers etc.
07-14-11, 07:43 PM
#9
Go Hard....or Go Home
I decided in the spring I'm not tracking my car until the roll bar is put in. Being a convertible, I think I need that safety measure should anything catastrophic happen on the track. It won't be a super-duper strong bar I don't think I will need much more protection - the car is still NA after all. What are your comments on a bar like this one? Maybe I will have to add some support to it if you guys say its not much more than something to look at.
07-14-11, 07:53 PM
#10
I will have to remember 2 inches when we start to mock it up... ultimately it has to fit under the roof with the top up... has to allow the top to function up and down... has to be easy for me to get in and out of the car... has to weld in and hopefully require minimal cutting of panels.
I also still have stock seats with bigger headrests than those ones... my head sits about an inch below the top of the headrest and with the seat in a comfortable daily position there is about 5 to 6 inches of room between my head and the roof panel.
I also still have stock seats with bigger headrests than those ones... my head sits about an inch below the top of the headrest and with the seat in a comfortable daily position there is about 5 to 6 inches of room between my head and the roof panel.
Last edited by CS13B; 07-14-11 at 07:57 PM.
07-14-11, 09:37 PM
#11
Full cage in a street car is illegal. So how can you control track speeds on street cars without full cages? Its an individual choice. I have a half cage that set me back $1500 in my 10th AE. Hate it. I can't sit in the dam car cause I need some modified seat to fit in it now. BUt it does make me feel safer. My new 1989 turbo II is now my track car. The 10th AE will become a garage queen due to the insane paint job its getting at classic auto body. I will cry on the first scratch. Fo the 89 I was considering a full cage in it but to do it properly the car would have to be stripped and trailered to the track. I don't have the funds to buy a trailer and truck. SO I will continue to do time attack as is. At least DDT doesn't have the high speeds and walls like the GP track.
I am one for safety. Your life is far more important then some $2500 cage...
I am one for safety. Your life is far more important then some $2500 cage...
07-14-11, 10:21 PM
#12
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If the cage is designed properly, your head should be able to pass underneath all the bars without contacting them. I had to drop my drivers seat down and towards the center of the car, as well as recline it to almost like a formula car level, to get my giant cranium with a helmet on underneath the bars.
All you would need to do then would be to add proper rated cage padding, not that pretty yellow, red and blue soft foam stuff, on every close surface and you would be okay on the street. When you come by, I will make sure that I have my RX7 at the house and you can see what we had to do to get a proper seat and cage relationship and fit. Anything is possible.
Eric
All you would need to do then would be to add proper rated cage padding, not that pretty yellow, red and blue soft foam stuff, on every close surface and you would be okay on the street. When you come by, I will make sure that I have my RX7 at the house and you can see what we had to do to get a proper seat and cage relationship and fit. Anything is possible.
Eric
right now i have a sparco sprint in my car pretty mounted as low as its going to get, im just very very weary of a bar next to my head, i would want the builder to put it as far out as it could be, and i would want a pro cage builder to do it
07-14-11, 10:28 PM
#13
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A 42-year-old London man is dead following a riding mishap at Calabogie Motorsports Park Monday.
The OPP identified the victim as Calvin Essex of London. The man was riding at about 11 a.m. when he got caught up in a crash involving several motorcycles.
A second man was flown to the Ottawa Civic Hospital by air ambulance with serious injuries, while another was taken by paramedics to the Arnprior and District Memorial Hospital with non-life threatening injuries.
They were all competing in what’s known as a "trackday", one of many events organized by Toronto-based Pro 6. The organization bills itself as the largest motorcycle trackday provider in the country.
The Pro 6 website says track days allow amateur riders to compete in high-performance rides in a safe and controlled environment, which includes corner marshals, paramedics and expert advice, along with strict rules regarding passing.
Riders must also submit their bikes for inspection and attend a briefing session where rules and the track’s flagging system are explained.
Pro 6 recently signed a three-year exclusivity contract with Calabogie Motorsports Park.
A company employee refused to comment on the incident, citing the ongoing investigation, and refused to say if there have been other fatalities elsewhere in the past.
The company has been in business since 1995.
Calabogie Motorsports, about an hour west of Ottawa, opened in September 2006 and features a wide variety of racing events, many of which involve amateur drivers using their own motorcycles and cars on a private road course.
The provincial coroner is heading the investigation.
The OPP identified the victim as Calvin Essex of London. The man was riding at about 11 a.m. when he got caught up in a crash involving several motorcycles.
A second man was flown to the Ottawa Civic Hospital by air ambulance with serious injuries, while another was taken by paramedics to the Arnprior and District Memorial Hospital with non-life threatening injuries.
They were all competing in what’s known as a "trackday", one of many events organized by Toronto-based Pro 6. The organization bills itself as the largest motorcycle trackday provider in the country.
The Pro 6 website says track days allow amateur riders to compete in high-performance rides in a safe and controlled environment, which includes corner marshals, paramedics and expert advice, along with strict rules regarding passing.
Riders must also submit their bikes for inspection and attend a briefing session where rules and the track’s flagging system are explained.
Pro 6 recently signed a three-year exclusivity contract with Calabogie Motorsports Park.
A company employee refused to comment on the incident, citing the ongoing investigation, and refused to say if there have been other fatalities elsewhere in the past.
The company has been in business since 1995.
Calabogie Motorsports, about an hour west of Ottawa, opened in September 2006 and features a wide variety of racing events, many of which involve amateur drivers using their own motorcycles and cars on a private road course.
The provincial coroner is heading the investigation.
07-14-11, 11:53 PM
#15
My RX7 made me a mechanic
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What about the average blue-coller or less incomed man with children to feed and bills to pay?
When my father young died back in 2003, I vowed to myself to use my one kick at the can to accomplish my dreams in this life time. I've spent the last two years spending any money that I could to build myself a racecar and that's only an engine build and sourcing everything else required to make it work not to mention that it's only an FC3S.
I had purchased a truck and trailer to go along with this plan but being that all that I could afford was a 1986 F150, I just recently sold it to a buddy for the drivetrain (a 302 in wicked shape!) and scrapped it due to what it was costing me on insurance and keeping it on the road alone.
Now that I finally have all of my parts and am actually building it, I'm in a spot where I need to plate and drive it and as stated before by IAN, it's illegal to street a fully caged car.
So back to the beginning, by reinforcing and restructuring the safety regulations of track days or autoX (a low and attainable tier of racing to the average Joe IMO), it leaves someone in a situation like mine S.O.L. and possibly spending 5 or 6 years and alot of effort just trying to get into a racing environment isolated from the general public; when it's all you've ever wanted to do, the "need for speed" becomes hard to continue to keep at bay when the tunnel stretches out on you and the light gets a bit dimmer...
When my father young died back in 2003, I vowed to myself to use my one kick at the can to accomplish my dreams in this life time. I've spent the last two years spending any money that I could to build myself a racecar and that's only an engine build and sourcing everything else required to make it work not to mention that it's only an FC3S.
I had purchased a truck and trailer to go along with this plan but being that all that I could afford was a 1986 F150, I just recently sold it to a buddy for the drivetrain (a 302 in wicked shape!) and scrapped it due to what it was costing me on insurance and keeping it on the road alone.
Now that I finally have all of my parts and am actually building it, I'm in a spot where I need to plate and drive it and as stated before by IAN, it's illegal to street a fully caged car.
So back to the beginning, by reinforcing and restructuring the safety regulations of track days or autoX (a low and attainable tier of racing to the average Joe IMO), it leaves someone in a situation like mine S.O.L. and possibly spending 5 or 6 years and alot of effort just trying to get into a racing environment isolated from the general public; when it's all you've ever wanted to do, the "need for speed" becomes hard to continue to keep at bay when the tunnel stretches out on you and the light gets a bit dimmer...
07-15-11, 04:56 AM
#16
As for the bike accident, sorry to hear he was killed, but it does happen and will continue to happen as it's goes with tracking /racing of any vehicle. All the safety equipment in the world will not stop deaths just minimize them. Just look at all sanctioned motor-sports, death rates have gone down but they still occur.
07-15-11, 07:05 AM
#17
Go Hard....or Go Home
Deaths will occur everyday, people get killed walking down the side walk getting hit by drunk drivers etc. What we are talking about here completely different. Eric and I are trying to make a point that you all have incredibly fast cars and you need reduce the risk by preparing the car properly. Does a seat belt save lives? Do air bags save lives? The feedback here like saying "well seat belts and air bags dont save all lives so why use them". It's plain and simple really, you are multiplying your risks by a 1000% when you dont use whats available to you when you are driving a high powered street car on the 3rd fastest track in the world.
Unfortunately as we get older we look back and realize that the fact we are not dead is truly amazing for all the stupid things we did in cars at an early age, and we are trying to stop people from dying or serious permanent injury when it can be prevented. Enough said happy lapping lol.
Unfortunately as we get older we look back and realize that the fact we are not dead is truly amazing for all the stupid things we did in cars at an early age, and we are trying to stop people from dying or serious permanent injury when it can be prevented. Enough said happy lapping lol.
07-15-11, 07:48 AM
#18
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
To me, just recognizing how far out on a safety limb you are doing low 1:30's at Mosport Big Track without race level safety equipment, is a great start. I love the fact that guys are putting a 4 point cage in and I love the forward extensions that CS13B is putting in his convertable. This is a great compromise for a street car and keeps it quasi legal.
The main thing I wanted to bring out in this thread is the general recognition that going as fast as some people are at Mosport, in basically street safety cars, is extremely dangerous. I think everybody recognizes that and I like that fact that people are taking steps to make it as safe3 as they are able to.
For example, I would look at doing events on the DDT Track or at Shannonville. Much slower tracks and a lot safer. No the buzz isn't the same, but the fun is.
Eric
The main thing I wanted to bring out in this thread is the general recognition that going as fast as some people are at Mosport, in basically street safety cars, is extremely dangerous. I think everybody recognizes that and I like that fact that people are taking steps to make it as safe3 as they are able to.
For example, I would look at doing events on the DDT Track or at Shannonville. Much slower tracks and a lot safer. No the buzz isn't the same, but the fun is.
Eric
07-15-11, 08:17 AM
#19
I do indeed realize how much of a safety limb I am on and given an infinite budget, would probably have done it by now. My current reasoning is if it happens, it happens. You might say my life is worth more then the cost of a cage but I think a little differently. When I go to tracks like Mosport, I take that extra care there because I know theres no safety margin there. I respect the track because i know what can happen. Braking for 8 still makes me sweat as well as going fast into 4. On the contrast going to Shannonville, I come out sweating buckets and you could almost say I enjoy it more as well. I push faster and still occasionally push too far and do loose it there but thats because I'm constantly trying to push what I can do. At Mosport. I let the lap times come to me so to speak, much more relaxed way of getting faster. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get the car running as good as it was since 09 due to me being greedy and constantly changing things >_>. Hopefully, I will soon.
For the past 2.5 years, I have noticed every track day that there is at least 1 major accident at Mosport that I have attended. It wasn't like this when I started lapping, accidents were rare. Lapping seems to be getting more popular as its the legal way to push that modified car you've been spending all your money on to the limit or just building up a shitbox that can still go fast and enjoy it, or your out of the box track ready car. These people want to take their street car and enjoy it on the track. If you start mandating safety equipment, they just won't come and will take it back to the streets where its not only more dangerous to themselves, but dangers others as well. I know this isn't an excuse for lack of safety equipment but is something to think about.
As they always say at the drivers meets. "Your not racing, your lapping, there is nothing you can do here today that will increase the value of your car." I think just having that put out there is the most you can hope for.
thewird
For the past 2.5 years, I have noticed every track day that there is at least 1 major accident at Mosport that I have attended. It wasn't like this when I started lapping, accidents were rare. Lapping seems to be getting more popular as its the legal way to push that modified car you've been spending all your money on to the limit or just building up a shitbox that can still go fast and enjoy it, or your out of the box track ready car. These people want to take their street car and enjoy it on the track. If you start mandating safety equipment, they just won't come and will take it back to the streets where its not only more dangerous to themselves, but dangers others as well. I know this isn't an excuse for lack of safety equipment but is something to think about.
As they always say at the drivers meets. "Your not racing, your lapping, there is nothing you can do here today that will increase the value of your car." I think just having that put out there is the most you can hope for.
thewird
07-15-11, 10:08 AM
#21
Go Hard....or Go Home
I do indeed realize how much of a safety limb I am on and given an infinite budget, would probably have done it by now. My current reasoning is if it happens, it happens. You might say my life is worth more then the cost of a cage but I think a little differently. When I go to tracks like Mosport, I take that extra care there because I know theres no safety margin there. I respect the track because i know what can happen. Braking for 8 still makes me sweat as well as going fast into 4. On the contrast going to Shannonville, I come out sweating buckets and you could almost say I enjoy it more as well. I push faster and still occasionally push too far and do loose it there but thats because I'm constantly trying to push what I can do. At Mosport. I let the lap times come to me so to speak, much more relaxed way of getting faster. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get the car running as good as it was since 09 due to me being greedy and constantly changing things >_>. Hopefully, I will soon.
For the past 2.5 years, I have noticed every track day that there is at least 1 major accident at Mosport that I have attended. It wasn't like this when I started lapping, accidents were rare. Lapping seems to be getting more popular as its the legal way to push that modified car you've been spending all your money on to the limit or just building up a shitbox that can still go fast and enjoy it, or your out of the box track ready car. These people want to take their street car and enjoy it on the track. If you start mandating safety equipment, they just won't come and will take it back to the streets where its not only more dangerous to themselves, but dangers others as well. I know this isn't an excuse for lack of safety equipment but is something to think about.
As they always say at the drivers meets. "Your not racing, your lapping, there is nothing you can do here today that will increase the value of your car." I think just having that put out there is the most you can hope for.
thewird
For the past 2.5 years, I have noticed every track day that there is at least 1 major accident at Mosport that I have attended. It wasn't like this when I started lapping, accidents were rare. Lapping seems to be getting more popular as its the legal way to push that modified car you've been spending all your money on to the limit or just building up a shitbox that can still go fast and enjoy it, or your out of the box track ready car. These people want to take their street car and enjoy it on the track. If you start mandating safety equipment, they just won't come and will take it back to the streets where its not only more dangerous to themselves, but dangers others as well. I know this isn't an excuse for lack of safety equipment but is something to think about.
As they always say at the drivers meets. "Your not racing, your lapping, there is nothing you can do here today that will increase the value of your car." I think just having that put out there is the most you can hope for.
thewird
07-15-11, 10:41 AM
#23
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upgrade your brakes too!
Don't overlook your brakes. When you make your car go faster and quicker, it can overwhelm your stock brakes. They were never intended to handle track conditions, let alone when the crap hits the fan.
07-15-11, 11:33 AM
#24
What am I doing...
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why are full cages illegal on the street? can anyone tell me? if the cage can be the difference between life or death on the track, it will/can also be so on the street, weather you crash while racing at the track or some idiot runs a red in his big pickup and t-bones you in an intersection, the cage can only save your life not take it.
and if the case of it being illegal is only begause they think it means the car is "highly modified" then something needs to be done and i think people should step up. when i build my turbo i will put a full cage in, and street it. any one who gives me **** about it will only get the finger from me. its saftey before stupidity.
and if the case of it being illegal is only begause they think it means the car is "highly modified" then something needs to be done and i think people should step up. when i build my turbo i will put a full cage in, and street it. any one who gives me **** about it will only get the finger from me. its saftey before stupidity.
07-15-11, 11:54 AM
#25
Go Hard....or Go Home
My 87 Mustang has a 6 point cage with a harness. The stock seat belt still attaches in all the stock mounting locations and I wear it on the street because I know wearing the harness albeit safer is illegal. I have been stopped many times in the car and never once had an issue with the cage in the car. I would like to see where in the HTA it says a cage is illegal. If the cage interferes with sightlines etc, I can see where you may have an issue. Many race cars were driven to the track over the years and non of those people ever had issues.