Gages, Which ones are necessary?
12-25-05, 08:24 PM
#51
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.. Auto meter are horrible.. 80's analouge technology, plastic needle pins, cheap frames, lously Q/A controls, out of date princess auto brass fittings and horrendus pressure sensor sending units, ambient lit back lighting, with no needle lighting at all.. And for all that your paying close tot he smae ammount as you would for a set of APEX'i EL series ones or just about any other JDM digital, stepper motor, properly back lit/needle lit, modern sensor, equipped guage set.
Autometer is the biggest rip off, If your REALLY stuck on buying american made product then at least use the NEw Stewart Warner product, 1/2 the price of autometer, using variable shading backlighting, digital internals, quality casements and better sensor systems then Auto meter..
But for All the money your going to spend on guages.. a SARD STACK is the way to go.
orginal question, depending on the car your working with the guages required change.. but compliment your exsting suite with additional items, a WB02 sensor with outputs, IF, ( like my WRX) you don't have a boost guage but you have a turbo.. then a High quality boost guage is a must, Oil temp, water press, knock sensor and Pyrometer are all items I'd consider ..
As an FYI I use the Defi link meter series in my FC and APEX'i EL I, black face series in my GDA series WRX.
Autometer is the biggest rip off, If your REALLY stuck on buying american made product then at least use the NEw Stewart Warner product, 1/2 the price of autometer, using variable shading backlighting, digital internals, quality casements and better sensor systems then Auto meter..
But for All the money your going to spend on guages.. a SARD STACK is the way to go.
orginal question, depending on the car your working with the guages required change.. but compliment your exsting suite with additional items, a WB02 sensor with outputs, IF, ( like my WRX) you don't have a boost guage but you have a turbo.. then a High quality boost guage is a must, Oil temp, water press, knock sensor and Pyrometer are all items I'd consider ..
As an FYI I use the Defi link meter series in my FC and APEX'i EL I, black face series in my GDA series WRX.
12-27-05, 09:40 AM
#52
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Originally Posted by coldfire
yup. ideally you would just want a single light telling you temp is too high, or oil pressure low, etc...
Idiot lights are great as an attention getter, but you need a gauge to observe the system during normal operation so you can be familiar with the trends of the system as it works properly.
Originally Posted by doridori-rx7
.. Auto meter are horrible.. 80's analouge technology, plastic needle pins, cheap frames, lously Q/A controls, out of date princess auto brass fittings and horrendus pressure sensor sending units, ambient lit back lighting, with no needle lighting at all.. And for all that your paying close tot he smae ammount as you would for a set of APEX'i EL series ones or just about any other JDM digital, stepper motor, properly back lit/needle lit, modern sensor, equipped guage set.
AutoMeter also makes the Nexus series of gauges that are all digital and a thoroughly modern system. Not many are willing to pay the price, though.
12-27-05, 11:13 AM
#53
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THe comparison to Princess auto is very apporpriate, as both PA & AM sit about the same level of quality in my book.. crap. The comparison betwen what the auto industry has speced in plastic ad autometer is inane.. completely different levels of quality and requirements.. for one, even the FC has digital system controlling it. the SIZE and quality of the mateirals used in most clusters is designed to last 10-20 years not just as long as the Autometer warrenty lasts ( limited one year ).
Your going to pay $439( MSRP. more if you want the cobalt ) for a 2 1/16" ultralight oil press package ( 4353 ) which has 'similar features to the japanese models... or $250-$310 (MSRP) for a DEfi(+ $110 for the controller box ), Greddy, Apex'i EL I/II , Blitz BLM , HKS Crono. Digital , 60mm, fully black lit, or other type of higher clarity/controllable lighting, lit needle, stainless sensors where usable, a generall overall better product.
Then again, if your happy with the low quality stuff as your link to your engine bay then have at it.. Autometer IS the low end of the totem pole in my book, right there with those Canadian Tire FAZE guages. HOWEVER, why you pay MORE for a guage of lesser quality...?? now thats just dumb ***.
I've never seen anyone in industy be it hydraulic, automotive or HVAC use princess auto fittings of ANY kind.. and we've got one of th biggest ones right here outside Barrie.. Farmers fixing a thresher maybe..
I think this is going a little far. The stock gauges in the RX-7 have plastic movements and plastic needle pins, yet they seem to work fine. In fact, I'd wager to say that most (if not all) OEMs are using plastic components in their gauges. As for quality control, I can't comment as I've never bought a bad AutoMeter gauge. The "Princess Auto" brass fittings are the exact same fittings you see in industry, household plumbing, automotive aftermarket and yes, many different brands of gauges. The RX-7 doesn't light the gauge needle, and the backlighting on my AutoMeter gauges has always been fine. Also they are now producing several gauge series with "Indiglo" style back lighting as well as standard glow-in-the-dark paint.
AutoMeter also makes the Nexus series of gauges that are all digital and a thoroughly modern system. Not many are willing to pay the price, though.
Your going to pay $439( MSRP. more if you want the cobalt ) for a 2 1/16" ultralight oil press package ( 4353 ) which has 'similar features to the japanese models... or $250-$310 (MSRP) for a DEfi(+ $110 for the controller box ), Greddy, Apex'i EL I/II , Blitz BLM , HKS Crono. Digital , 60mm, fully black lit, or other type of higher clarity/controllable lighting, lit needle, stainless sensors where usable, a generall overall better product.
Then again, if your happy with the low quality stuff as your link to your engine bay then have at it.. Autometer IS the low end of the totem pole in my book, right there with those Canadian Tire FAZE guages. HOWEVER, why you pay MORE for a guage of lesser quality...?? now thats just dumb ***.
I've never seen anyone in industy be it hydraulic, automotive or HVAC use princess auto fittings of ANY kind.. and we've got one of th biggest ones right here outside Barrie.. Farmers fixing a thresher maybe..
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
I think this is going a little far. The stock gauges in the RX-7 have plastic movements and plastic needle pins, yet they seem to work fine. In fact, I'd wager to say that most (if not all) OEMs are using plastic components in their gauges. As for quality control, I can't comment as I've never bought a bad AutoMeter gauge. The "Princess Auto" brass fittings are the exact same fittings you see in industry, household plumbing, automotive aftermarket and yes, many different brands of gauges. The RX-7 doesn't light the gauge needle, and the backlighting on my AutoMeter gauges has always been fine. Also they are now producing several gauge series with "Indiglo" style back lighting as well as standard glow-in-the-dark paint.
AutoMeter also makes the Nexus series of gauges that are all digital and a thoroughly modern system. Not many are willing to pay the price, though.
12-27-05, 01:09 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by doridori-rx7
The comparison betwen what the auto industry has speced in plastic ad autometer is inane.. completely different levels of quality and requirements..
for one, even the FC has digital system controlling it.
the SIZE and quality of the mateirals used in most clusters is designed to last 10-20 years not just as long as the Autometer warrenty lasts ( limited one year ).
Your going to pay $439( MSRP. more if you want the cobalt ) for a 2 1/16" ultralight oil press package ( 4353 )
which has 'similar features to the japanese models... or $250-$310 (MSRP) for a DEfi(+ $110 for the controller box ), Greddy, Apex'i EL I/II , Blitz BLM , HKS Crono. Digital , 60mm, fully black lit, or other type of higher clarity/controllable lighting, lit needle, stainless sensors where usable, a generall overall better product.
Then again, if your happy with the low quality stuff as your link to your engine bay then have at it.. Autometer IS the low end of the totem pole in my book, right there with those Canadian Tire FAZE guages. HOWEVER, why you pay MORE for a guage of lesser quality...?? now thats just dumb ***.
I've never seen anyone in industy be it hydraulic, automotive or HVAC use princess auto fittings of ANY kind.. and we've got one of th biggest ones right here outside Barrie.. Farmers fixing a thresher maybe..
12-27-05, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
The plastic looks and feels the same to me, but I'm not a plastic expert. Requirements seem the same in my opinion, since both am OEM and aftermarket gauge are expected to work for years. I think that people expect more accuracy (well, more precision anyway) from an aftermarket gauge.
Even from looking at it you can see that the diameters and the mountings of the plastic on the autometer are as cheap and as minimal as they can make it and still hold together in the box it comes in.. byond that.. it's a toss up.. back when I used to sell this stuff, ( ~3 years ago before they doubled the price of the complete line ) , I had ~ 15% DOA/return rate ( sensor and guage failures. ).. I've talked to many other who HAD the guages and had drastic misreadings compared to JDM sensors.
No it doesn't. All the FCs gauges are strictly analog. It's been a while since I pulled apart a FC gauge cluster, but from memory the fuel, oil pressure and coolant temp are all bimetallic strips connected to a sender which is a series resistor. The voltmeter and boost gauge are standard "voice coil" type gauges, as is the tach. The speedometer is strictly mechanical with a reed switch as the VSS for the cruise control and power steering system.
I forgot you were 'Mr. litteral' so maybe I should have said.. the inner green boards ( those that ARE there) are of a more advanced & robust curcuitry. ( In the FC instance.. but there ARE cars that are pure digital, so don't try to narrrow the scope to the point of making it an argument of micrometers.
A car is built to last the warranty period, as are almost any products. There are a lot of cars running around with old AutoMeter gauges that are working just fine.
so I guess we should all run screaming from our FC death traps... My 02' WRX is beyond it's warrenty.. so I should expect ALL GDA/B's to just collapose at any moment... not hardly.
Summit Racing has that part for $199 US here. About $233 Canadian. The mechanical version is a LOT cheaper, but then I wouldn't buy a non electrical gauge anyway.
I'm interested in seeing if you can get one of the Autometer 4353's up here for that price ( $199us) considering that is well below US jobber pricing.. by a LONG shot.
Even with that, a fully digital, Apexi EL I oil press with indiglo and full stainless parts and much higher quality sensors is the same in USD Even just from the weight and fit/finish you can tell that it's so much higher quality, autometer's pressed white metal VS the EL's cast aluminum bezel. Just one example of the difference in quality.
What about AutoMeter's Nexus line? They seem to have the same features and more for roughly the same price. In my opinion, more pleasing to the eye as well.
the Nexus is the low end now and it's 1/2 the guage that the new Stewart-Warner guages are at 2x the price.. at least the S&W guages are fully digital and properly back lit, metal needle pin and een a lit needle.
I keep hearing people say this, but no one has any proof. And what about all the race teams that run AutoMeter?
WTF??! you maybe want Dr. Kinsey to do a 2300 page white paper for you on just how sucky the autometer line is for the money ?? Take one apart! look at it, they are $25 worth of parts.. if that in the normal electric guages. maybe a few bucks more in some of the N20 digital guages.. but then your into the $380+ range again.
Take a walk through any pluming store, or hydraulic store. I was at the hydraulic store on Friday buying some fittings, and they were exactly the same as what you would get with an AutoMeter mechanical (boost, for example) gauge. Off hand, my furnace humidifier uses the same fittings in larger sizes. As does my bathroom and kitchen sink. Irrigation companies use very similar fittings (my bother works for a big one here in town during the summer). I've seen the same fittings on all kinds of automotive aftermarket stuff, from gauges to air suspensions to cooling. Just because AutoMeter mechanical gauges come with a fitting does not mean you have to use it. Since most of the stuff is just 1/8" NPT, you're free to use a different fitting (or adapters to move to AN) if you want.
that's odd, up here you go into a hydraulics shop and they give you a steel fitting , not brass and they don't carry them either, you go into a water pump outlet and they sell you stainless or bronze, no brass.. I've never seen anything that uses even med. pressure hydraulics, from plastic injection equipment to OEM Tier 2-3 parts manufactures that spec or have used in thier assemblies , brass fitting like those at PA, or used by AM.. in fact point out to me an OEM fitting that is brass.. Mybe you just travel in circles that don't knwo anything else but as an aircraft and car builder.. brass is used from ballast when you don't have lead.. that's it. Sure you don't have to use it.. but you paid good money for your 'kit', so why is it ok to get the cheapst parts possible in that kit when othe companes are putting in high quality parts for a similar price ??
Autometer is crap.. but that's my opinon.
Even from looking at it you can see that the diameters and the mountings of the plastic on the autometer are as cheap and as minimal as they can make it and still hold together in the box it comes in.. byond that.. it's a toss up.. back when I used to sell this stuff, ( ~3 years ago before they doubled the price of the complete line ) , I had ~ 15% DOA/return rate ( sensor and guage failures. ).. I've talked to many other who HAD the guages and had drastic misreadings compared to JDM sensors.
No it doesn't. All the FCs gauges are strictly analog. It's been a while since I pulled apart a FC gauge cluster, but from memory the fuel, oil pressure and coolant temp are all bimetallic strips connected to a sender which is a series resistor. The voltmeter and boost gauge are standard "voice coil" type gauges, as is the tach. The speedometer is strictly mechanical with a reed switch as the VSS for the cruise control and power steering system.
I forgot you were 'Mr. litteral' so maybe I should have said.. the inner green boards ( those that ARE there) are of a more advanced & robust curcuitry. ( In the FC instance.. but there ARE cars that are pure digital, so don't try to narrrow the scope to the point of making it an argument of micrometers.
A car is built to last the warranty period, as are almost any products. There are a lot of cars running around with old AutoMeter gauges that are working just fine.
so I guess we should all run screaming from our FC death traps... My 02' WRX is beyond it's warrenty.. so I should expect ALL GDA/B's to just collapose at any moment... not hardly.
Summit Racing has that part for $199 US here. About $233 Canadian. The mechanical version is a LOT cheaper, but then I wouldn't buy a non electrical gauge anyway.
I'm interested in seeing if you can get one of the Autometer 4353's up here for that price ( $199us) considering that is well below US jobber pricing.. by a LONG shot.
Even with that, a fully digital, Apexi EL I oil press with indiglo and full stainless parts and much higher quality sensors is the same in USD Even just from the weight and fit/finish you can tell that it's so much higher quality, autometer's pressed white metal VS the EL's cast aluminum bezel. Just one example of the difference in quality.
What about AutoMeter's Nexus line? They seem to have the same features and more for roughly the same price. In my opinion, more pleasing to the eye as well.
the Nexus is the low end now and it's 1/2 the guage that the new Stewart-Warner guages are at 2x the price.. at least the S&W guages are fully digital and properly back lit, metal needle pin and een a lit needle.
I keep hearing people say this, but no one has any proof. And what about all the race teams that run AutoMeter?
WTF??! you maybe want Dr. Kinsey to do a 2300 page white paper for you on just how sucky the autometer line is for the money ?? Take one apart! look at it, they are $25 worth of parts.. if that in the normal electric guages. maybe a few bucks more in some of the N20 digital guages.. but then your into the $380+ range again.
Take a walk through any pluming store, or hydraulic store. I was at the hydraulic store on Friday buying some fittings, and they were exactly the same as what you would get with an AutoMeter mechanical (boost, for example) gauge. Off hand, my furnace humidifier uses the same fittings in larger sizes. As does my bathroom and kitchen sink. Irrigation companies use very similar fittings (my bother works for a big one here in town during the summer). I've seen the same fittings on all kinds of automotive aftermarket stuff, from gauges to air suspensions to cooling. Just because AutoMeter mechanical gauges come with a fitting does not mean you have to use it. Since most of the stuff is just 1/8" NPT, you're free to use a different fitting (or adapters to move to AN) if you want.
that's odd, up here you go into a hydraulics shop and they give you a steel fitting , not brass and they don't carry them either, you go into a water pump outlet and they sell you stainless or bronze, no brass.. I've never seen anything that uses even med. pressure hydraulics, from plastic injection equipment to OEM Tier 2-3 parts manufactures that spec or have used in thier assemblies , brass fitting like those at PA, or used by AM.. in fact point out to me an OEM fitting that is brass.. Mybe you just travel in circles that don't knwo anything else but as an aircraft and car builder.. brass is used from ballast when you don't have lead.. that's it. Sure you don't have to use it.. but you paid good money for your 'kit', so why is it ok to get the cheapst parts possible in that kit when othe companes are putting in high quality parts for a similar price ??
Autometer is crap.. but that's my opinon.
12-27-05, 11:37 PM
#57
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uh, MY replies are in bold INSIDE his qute.. 'blah' was simply put there to actually let me post ..
However if this is a contest then your addition to this post makes you the big looser.
However if this is a contest then your addition to this post makes you the big looser.
12-28-05, 12:26 AM
#58
Originally Posted by doridori-rx7
uh, MY replies are in bold INSIDE his qute.. 'blah' was simply put there to actually let me post ..
However if this is a contest then your addition to this post makes you the big looser.
However if this is a contest then your addition to this post makes you the big looser.
Dude, take it easy. You've been hating on alot of things lately. JHB, AutoMeter etc., you're gonna get an ulcer.
12-28-05, 01:04 AM
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no I just dislike crap, be it product or services.. if I dont' agree with somone's assesment then I'm going to say something, if to only add a counter point and a different option.
12-28-05, 04:20 AM
#60
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
A lot of people say this, but no one seems to have any proof. Some of their brands (ie. AutoGage) may not be the best, but I think it's a rather unfair generalization to say that all AutoMeter products suck. Especailly considering how many race teams (including a small organization called NASCAR) use them. 
Because they are geographically convenient.
Because they are geographically convenient.
id recommand apexi, or maybe DEFI ,
on my R3 my freakin autometer boost gauge had a misread of 6 psi ....
it showed 16 while i was pushin only 10 .... after a few ecu check up, we saw that the car was rightfully tuned and it was only the gauge's fault !!! so i sold my gauges and changed to apexi's, they say they are the best on the market, and where 100% accurate !!!
so bottom line dont go with autometer !!!!
the gauges u need, boost , air/fuel , fuel press, egt (lots of backfires if ur turboed),
12-28-05, 09:08 AM
#61
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Even from looking at it you can see that the diameters and the mountings of the plastic on the autometer are as cheap and as minimal as they can make it and still hold together in the box it comes in.. byond that.. it's a toss up.. back when I used to sell this stuff, ( ~3 years ago before they doubled the price of the complete line ) , I had ~ 15% DOA/return rate ( sensor and guage failures. ).. I've talked to many other who HAD the guages and had drastic misreadings compared to JDM sensors.
One minor point though on accuracy. In many, many cars with AutoMeter, Greddy and other gauges I see totally different readings on the gauge vs. the stock gauge vs. the sensors on the standalone. So maybe the question is not which is most accurate, but which is correct to begin with.
I forgot you were 'Mr. litteral' so maybe I should have said.. the inner green boards ( those that ARE there) are of a more advanced & robust curcuitry. ( In the FC instance.. but there ARE cars that are pure digital, so don't try to narrrow the scope to the point of making it an argument of micrometers.
There's really nothing advanced about the FC's gauges, and I think you're the first person I've ever heard to describe the FC's electrical system as "robust". I'm not disagreeing though. I'm not sure if you've taken apart the FC's gauges, but they're pretty cheesy. Plastic bearings, loose friction fits, very fine wires, etc.
so I guess we should all run screaming from our FC death traps... My 02' WRX is beyond it's warrenty.. so I should expect ALL GDA/B's to just collapose at any moment... not hardly.
I'm interested in seeing if you can get one of the Autometer 4353's up here for that price ( $199us) considering that is well below US jobber pricing.. by a LONG shot.
the Nexus is the low end now and it's 1/2 the guage that the new Stewart-Warner guages are at 2x the price.. at least the S&W guages are fully digital and properly back lit, metal needle pin and een a lit needle.
WTF??! you maybe want Dr. Kinsey to do a 2300 page white paper for you on just how sucky the autometer line is for the money ?? Take one apart! look at it, they are $25 worth of parts.. if that in the normal electric guages. maybe a few bucks more in some of the N20 digital guages.. but then your into the $380+ range again.
that's odd, up here you go into a hydraulics shop and they give you a steel fitting , not brass and they don't carry them either,
me an OEM fitting that is brass.. Mybe you just travel in circles that don't knwo anything else but as an aircraft and car builder.. brass is used from ballast when you don't have lead.. that's it.
12-28-05, 11:40 AM
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most of the 'guage' based failures I get back are tachs and boost , the little plastic pin snaps. This is why I mention it so often. Thankfully I don't use anything like that anymore so the Defi, Apex'i, Blitz and Sard guages I've sold and use have worked perfectly. I've also been checking out SPA from the UK of late.. Dual digital guages in one guage format. Also comparing pricing of a suite of guages to say a SARD STACK or Motec multi metering panel.. it's damn close to the same price.
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