electronic rust protection
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Windsor, On
electronic rust protection
anyone use this sucessfully?
I can get a pretty good deal on them, but I'm wondering if they actually work or if they're useless.
their marketing stuff says it even prevents your brake rotors from rusting!
I want to drive my skyline over the winter, but I don't want it to turn into a rustbucket
I can get a pretty good deal on them, but I'm wondering if they actually work or if they're useless.
their marketing stuff says it even prevents your brake rotors from rusting!
I want to drive my skyline over the winter, but I don't want it to turn into a rustbucket
Well, many OEM's such as Volvo have these standard on their cars. I'm not sure how one of their system's stacks up to that box that Crappy Tire charges $199 for though.
That being said, even the OEM equipped ones I've seen have rust here and there. It may have been worse without the device, but who knows. All seems very magical/mystical to me.
That being said, even the OEM equipped ones I've seen have rust here and there. It may have been worse without the device, but who knows. All seems very magical/mystical to me.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Windsor, On
my 10AE was winter driven at least a few times, and has no rust anywhere. I think a car can see salt once or twice without the car being "toast", but we all know it's a bad idea.
I just don't like the idea of oil guarding a car - it makes a huge mess, and no matter how well it gets done, there always seems to be spots that saltwater finds and the oil didn't.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 29,798
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From: London, Ontario, Canada
Doesn't work. I could go into the long scientific of why it can't ever work, but just trust me, it's not electrically possible with the devices currently on the market.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Windsor, On
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 29,798
Likes: 128
From: London, Ontario, Canada
I just did some searching instead of having to type it out myself. I didn't write the content at any of these links, and I've only skimmed it, but for the most part it's what I would be saying:
http://www.dansdata.com/danletters175.htm
Here's another forum post discussing this. Like any forum, there are good posts and bad posts
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=66002
Long story short is that electrically, all these devices do is pass a current through the body of the car from one end to another. This has no effect on rust.
http://www.dansdata.com/danletters175.htm
No, they don't work. At all. I mention them in passing in this column, as being even less plausible than the electronic rust inhibitor doodad I'm complaining about there.
See also this page.
(The Car Talk guys don't know why these gadgets don't work (they have sacrificial-anode devices mixed up with electronic ones, and don't know that sacrificial-anode devices work because the thing they're protecting is immersed in an electrolyte, which cars aren't), but they do at least know that they don't.)
The Defense Pak Blah Blah, of course, does not explicitly claim that it's a cathodic or impressed current system - nooooo, it "sends a continuous stream of silent electronic pulses throughout the body of the vehicle", which "act to inhibit the electro-chemical process".
Except, of course, they don't. This is pseudoscientific gibberish. A conductor with current flowing through it will rust just like an identical piece of metal that's just sitting there, unless it's part of a natural or forced electrochemical cell that shifts the corrosion somewhere else. Cathodic and impressed current rust protection does actually work, when it's used on something that's surrounded by a conductive medium like water or earth. It just doesn't work on cars that're (mostly) surrounded by (mostly) insulative air.
The process the Defense Pak and most other "electronic" anti-rust gadgets claim to use is even further from usefulness. It is nonsense, and cannot work, ever.
I, of course, am not qualified to tell the universe what to do. Neither are all of the world's electrochemists and physicists. The proof is in the pudding; if your explanation for your antigravity machine is nonsense but the thing's obviously hanging there in the air, you still get your Nobel Prize.
But these products fit a well-established pattern which makes clear to me that if they're not scams, they're doing a very good job of pretending to be.
Umpteen companies have been selling electronic rust stoppers for many years. Many billion-dollar industries would love it if the devices worked. And yet the devices are still being sold one by one to regular Joes.
If electronic rust preventers actually worked, the people who sold them would have made more money than God in a week and retired, and most if not all vehicles would come with one built in.
Does Caterpillar include an electronic de-ruster on every bulldozer? Does the US Army put 'em on their vehicles?
Kenworth?
Toyota?
Bueller? Bueller?
Note that you certainly can use a sacrificial-anode or impressed-current system on any part of a land vehicle where water tends to accumulate - if there's some nook or cranny that always gets damp and starts rusting, you can bolt a lump of magnesium in there and protect that particular spot just fine. Or, better yet, you can give the whole car's steel panels a coating of a suitable other metal like, oh, I don't know, zinc.
This process is, of course, known as "galvanising", and it's normal in the car industry these days. I don't think it's even possible to buy a steel car that doesn't have galvanised panels, any more (though there are still plenty of cars that aren't fully galvanised). I think there used to be problems with spot welding such panels, or something, and that was one of the leading reasons why old cars rusted so rapidly and so badly - they had to be made out of ungalvanised steel, or the galvanising was damaged by the welding and they rusted at the welds, which is of course the very last place you want rust to start. But modern mainstream cars are well-galvanised from bumper to bumper.
Modern cars are far more rust resistant than older cars, mainly because of galvanising but also because of the wider use of plastic for some panels and bumpers, and possibly also because of better paint. People who remember how fast their old Cortina was eaten by the rust bugs may, therefore, buy a new Corolla, pay extra for some shady dealer to bolt a useless electro-gizmo onto it (or, more traditionally, pay for greatly overpriced "undercoating" to be sprayed all over the car's belly - though at least that stuff probably does genuinely provide some protection), and be amazed to see that there's no rust to speak of after ten years.
Except that that's normal these days, if you don't live by the seaside, drive on salted roads in some cold-country winter, or keep scraping your car on concrete pillars in the supermarket parking lot and exposing bare metal.
Oh well. I suppose it's nice, at least, to see a non-functional automotive gadget that's not supposed to do anything to your fuel economy.
See also this page.
(The Car Talk guys don't know why these gadgets don't work (they have sacrificial-anode devices mixed up with electronic ones, and don't know that sacrificial-anode devices work because the thing they're protecting is immersed in an electrolyte, which cars aren't), but they do at least know that they don't.)
The Defense Pak Blah Blah, of course, does not explicitly claim that it's a cathodic or impressed current system - nooooo, it "sends a continuous stream of silent electronic pulses throughout the body of the vehicle", which "act to inhibit the electro-chemical process".
Except, of course, they don't. This is pseudoscientific gibberish. A conductor with current flowing through it will rust just like an identical piece of metal that's just sitting there, unless it's part of a natural or forced electrochemical cell that shifts the corrosion somewhere else. Cathodic and impressed current rust protection does actually work, when it's used on something that's surrounded by a conductive medium like water or earth. It just doesn't work on cars that're (mostly) surrounded by (mostly) insulative air.
The process the Defense Pak and most other "electronic" anti-rust gadgets claim to use is even further from usefulness. It is nonsense, and cannot work, ever.
I, of course, am not qualified to tell the universe what to do. Neither are all of the world's electrochemists and physicists. The proof is in the pudding; if your explanation for your antigravity machine is nonsense but the thing's obviously hanging there in the air, you still get your Nobel Prize.
But these products fit a well-established pattern which makes clear to me that if they're not scams, they're doing a very good job of pretending to be.
Umpteen companies have been selling electronic rust stoppers for many years. Many billion-dollar industries would love it if the devices worked. And yet the devices are still being sold one by one to regular Joes.
If electronic rust preventers actually worked, the people who sold them would have made more money than God in a week and retired, and most if not all vehicles would come with one built in.
Does Caterpillar include an electronic de-ruster on every bulldozer? Does the US Army put 'em on their vehicles?
Kenworth?
Toyota?
Bueller? Bueller?
Note that you certainly can use a sacrificial-anode or impressed-current system on any part of a land vehicle where water tends to accumulate - if there's some nook or cranny that always gets damp and starts rusting, you can bolt a lump of magnesium in there and protect that particular spot just fine. Or, better yet, you can give the whole car's steel panels a coating of a suitable other metal like, oh, I don't know, zinc.
This process is, of course, known as "galvanising", and it's normal in the car industry these days. I don't think it's even possible to buy a steel car that doesn't have galvanised panels, any more (though there are still plenty of cars that aren't fully galvanised). I think there used to be problems with spot welding such panels, or something, and that was one of the leading reasons why old cars rusted so rapidly and so badly - they had to be made out of ungalvanised steel, or the galvanising was damaged by the welding and they rusted at the welds, which is of course the very last place you want rust to start. But modern mainstream cars are well-galvanised from bumper to bumper.
Modern cars are far more rust resistant than older cars, mainly because of galvanising but also because of the wider use of plastic for some panels and bumpers, and possibly also because of better paint. People who remember how fast their old Cortina was eaten by the rust bugs may, therefore, buy a new Corolla, pay extra for some shady dealer to bolt a useless electro-gizmo onto it (or, more traditionally, pay for greatly overpriced "undercoating" to be sprayed all over the car's belly - though at least that stuff probably does genuinely provide some protection), and be amazed to see that there's no rust to speak of after ten years.
Except that that's normal these days, if you don't live by the seaside, drive on salted roads in some cold-country winter, or keep scraping your car on concrete pillars in the supermarket parking lot and exposing bare metal.
Oh well. I suppose it's nice, at least, to see a non-functional automotive gadget that's not supposed to do anything to your fuel economy.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=66002
Long story short is that electrically, all these devices do is pass a current through the body of the car from one end to another. This has no effect on rust.
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Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Windsor, On
*shrug*
there wasn't really any definate proof given either way there.. the forum was doing great until they went off on a tangent about gas station fires.
at least now I see the science behind how it's suppossed to work - but I'm still not sure if it will, or won't.
there wasn't really any definate proof given either way there.. the forum was doing great until they went off on a tangent about gas station fires.
at least now I see the science behind how it's suppossed to work - but I'm still not sure if it will, or won't.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 29,798
Likes: 128
From: London, Ontario, Canada
I found the original thread where I posted a decent article explaining why this system can't work:
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showthread.php?t=518197
I've been searching around reading about these various magic boxes in the hopes of being able to come up with a rock solid explanation to easily explain why it can't work, but I'm having major trouble with that. The primary reason is that most of the websites for these devices don't explain how they are supposed to work! It's all a "mumbo jumbo" of scientific terms almost randomly thrown together to try and fool those with know knowledge. In other words, 90% of it is actually nonsense.
Here's the best I can do based on the lack of information from these websites.
Most of the devices all claim to be able to electrically "replace" the electrons that rust would take from the steel. They do this by passing a current through the body of the car. This won't work because both sides of the "rust cell" (basically a small battery in which electrons move from the steel through an electrolyte [water] to a cathode) will be at the same potential, as they are part of the car as a whole. It's impossible to recharge the "steel side" only without effecting the "rust side". Thus the electrons from the steel will still be pulled away during rusting.
Some claim to electrostatically charge the metal by making the steel of the car half of a capacitor. The paint is the insulating layer, and the "pads" provided by the device are the other side of the capacitor. Won't work for the same reason as posted above, and any break in the dielectric paint layer will totally invalidate the whole capacitor.
Here's a decent link to an electronics forum where they discuss this:
http://www.electro-tech-online.com/e...tion-cars.html
Here's another forum where people are skeptical, which links to a (now defunct) article in which the Government of Canada demanded the makers of these products stop making claims of rust protection:
http://www.acuraworld.com/forums/pri...ad.php?t=25830
A "Canadian Driver" (whatever that is) article that touches on it:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/070221.htm
I found a tonne of other articles while searching around for these products. Most say the same thing I've said and come to the conclusion that in an automotive application this can't work.
Electronic rust protection is common in industry and in the marine world though, but in that case the water or Earth will provide the 2nd electrode to which the device is connected. Just connecting to two sides of the same vehicle won't work.
Also, your car does this anyway since the body is used as a return for the battery. Thus, electrons are always flowing through sheetmetal...
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showthread.php?t=518197
I've been searching around reading about these various magic boxes in the hopes of being able to come up with a rock solid explanation to easily explain why it can't work, but I'm having major trouble with that. The primary reason is that most of the websites for these devices don't explain how they are supposed to work! It's all a "mumbo jumbo" of scientific terms almost randomly thrown together to try and fool those with know knowledge. In other words, 90% of it is actually nonsense.
Here's the best I can do based on the lack of information from these websites.
Most of the devices all claim to be able to electrically "replace" the electrons that rust would take from the steel. They do this by passing a current through the body of the car. This won't work because both sides of the "rust cell" (basically a small battery in which electrons move from the steel through an electrolyte [water] to a cathode) will be at the same potential, as they are part of the car as a whole. It's impossible to recharge the "steel side" only without effecting the "rust side". Thus the electrons from the steel will still be pulled away during rusting.
Some claim to electrostatically charge the metal by making the steel of the car half of a capacitor. The paint is the insulating layer, and the "pads" provided by the device are the other side of the capacitor. Won't work for the same reason as posted above, and any break in the dielectric paint layer will totally invalidate the whole capacitor.
Here's a decent link to an electronics forum where they discuss this:
http://www.electro-tech-online.com/e...tion-cars.html
Here's another forum where people are skeptical, which links to a (now defunct) article in which the Government of Canada demanded the makers of these products stop making claims of rust protection:
http://www.acuraworld.com/forums/pri...ad.php?t=25830
A "Canadian Driver" (whatever that is) article that touches on it:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/070221.htm
I found a tonne of other articles while searching around for these products. Most say the same thing I've said and come to the conclusion that in an automotive application this can't work.
Electronic rust protection is common in industry and in the marine world though, but in that case the water or Earth will provide the 2nd electrode to which the device is connected. Just connecting to two sides of the same vehicle won't work.
Also, your car does this anyway since the body is used as a return for the battery. Thus, electrons are always flowing through sheetmetal...
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 29,798
Likes: 128
From: London, Ontario, Canada
Well, you could coat the steel with a sacrificial anode. This is the process of galvanization which of course can't really be done after the car is assembled. Also, Mazda already galvanized the metal from the factory. 
You could also place zinc anodes around the underside of the car, however this really doesn't work that well in a system isolated from ground.
A good rust inhibiting paint (POR-15, etc.) and then oil guarding will do the job. Hosing off the underside after a drive in the salt makes a huge difference as well. And don't drive in the winter in a steel car.

You could also place zinc anodes around the underside of the car, however this really doesn't work that well in a system isolated from ground.
A good rust inhibiting paint (POR-15, etc.) and then oil guarding will do the job. Hosing off the underside after a drive in the salt makes a huge difference as well. And don't drive in the winter in a steel car.
Aaron's link to his earlier post pretty much hits the nail on the head; in summary, the automotive systems won't work because a path to ground is needed - and rubber tires are notably effective in preventing that. Bridges, and even the metal structures at Calgary C-train stations (where an abundance of salt is used on the platforms) are protected by passive (simple grounding) or active electrical systems.
The earlier rx7club thread Aaron linked does discuss some effective treatment - cheapest and most effective is probably the "dripless" oil coating - get the inside of the doors and jambs/rockers to be thorough.
The earlier rx7club thread Aaron linked does discuss some effective treatment - cheapest and most effective is probably the "dripless" oil coating - get the inside of the doors and jambs/rockers to be thorough.
Krown Rust Protection
Theres a Krown on lakeshore in Mississauga thats charging $90 flat for 2 door cars and $95.
i've used rust protection on my 92 accord every year so far and it's freaking amazing.
Theres a Krown on lakeshore in Mississauga thats charging $90 flat for 2 door cars and $95.
i've used rust protection on my 92 accord every year so far and it's freaking amazing.
Krown rust control is amazing. I have used it for years and have never had a rust issue with any of my cars. It is messy when done, will drip for a few days but it works. Dripless rust protection does not work as well because they do not seap into small crevases.
When I picked up the truck the stopping distance was wayyyyyyy longer, good thing the truck also has 4 piston brakes. So if you get it done be prepared for a longer stopping distance.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,737
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From: Windsor, On
On the plus side, once it is rusted, you can do this:
http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/ru..._derusting.htm
I've been doing it in the basement for a couple of weeks now, and am more and more amazed with the results.
http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/ru..._derusting.htm
I've been doing it in the basement for a couple of weeks now, and am more and more amazed with the results.
Yeah I was thinking of using Krown. I was wondering if anyone knew what the difference was between Krown and other products (not dripless rust protection)?
I'm using Krown. It does drip for a few days after they apply it, and you're supposed to get it done every year (about $100).
They have a picture at the Krown office of a rusted-through car that used one of those electronic gadgets.
The guys at Gyro Mazda recommended a fine application of oil to protect my car, which is basically what Krown uses. They drill holes in your car to access all the areas they need the oil to reach.
They have a picture at the Krown office of a rusted-through car that used one of those electronic gadgets.
The guys at Gyro Mazda recommended a fine application of oil to protect my car, which is basically what Krown uses. They drill holes in your car to access all the areas they need the oil to reach.






