Ctrl

Hydrogen boosting RX-7's.
By Mike Smith

Preface

This howto is written for the experimentor. It is in no way a complete compendium
of knowledge on this subject, it is only what I have learned in the short time I've
been experimenting with HHO gas. Other people I've ran across on such places as
http://youtube.com etc, have far more knowledge than I, and I would suggest you visit
youtube to gain a better insight. This howto is only a basic guide to get someone started
on their own HHO generator.

No suitability of purpose is implied or gauranteed. You must accept full responsibility
for what you do to your own car. And remember, hydrogen is highly explosive. Take all
safety precautions seriously.

Hydrogen Generation

Hydrogen generation can be done by various means but for the purposes of this howto
only the electrolysis of water will be discussed.

A water molecule is comprised of two atoms of hydrogen, and one atom of oxygen.
Hydrogen atoms have a positive charge to them, and oxygen a negative charge. These
opposite charges is what allows the atoms to attract to each other and form an electron
bond. These electrical charges is also what allows for the electrolysis process.

In a nutshell, electrolysis of water is passing a DC current through water by submerging
two electrodes in the water and applying voltage to them. Since it's DC voltage we're
talking about, the electrodes in the water have a polarity to them. The positive electrode
is called the anode, and the negative electrode is the cathode. Since Hydrogen has a
positive charge, it naturally is attracted to the cathode (-), and Oxygen is attracted to the
anode (+). If you provide more power (voltage and/or current) to the water, the anode and
cathode put forth a greater attraction to the Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms than the atoms have
to each other, thus in essence, you rip apart the molecule into individual atoms.
That is how electrolysis works. For more infomation, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water

To get better production out of your HHO gas cell, you'll need to learn more about
using heat to speed up the process, as well as electrolytes. Surface area of the electrodes
also plays a major role in production, as do "neutral plates". I suggest reading the wiki
article to learn more about this, however, as a rule of thumb, the warmer the water, the
larger the surface area of the electrodes, and the use electrolytes (used to increase the
conductivity of water) will provide better HHO gas production. Although using heat is
mentioned, electrolysis of water will gradually heat up the water on its own, so using
an external heat source isn't recommended, as the water can get to boiling point on its
own with enough current. Obviously you want HHO gas flowing to your engine, not steam, so
some experimenting on your part with plate sizes, and electrolyte levels is a good idea
so that you've got nice warm HHO producing water, not a boiling steam generator.

Even if you were to overdo it a little bit and get the water to or near boiling, the
electrolysis process will still work, but you'd be putting a bit of steam in your engine too.

One more method of increasing HHO gas generation is by the use of a Pulse Width Modulator.
A PWM is a high frequency device that emits a square wave many thousands of times per second.
The purpose behind using a PWM is to increase HHO production while keeping the current and
voltage lower, thus producing less waste as heat. I myself have yet to try a PWM, but I
certainly intend to and will update this howto once I've tried it.

Hydrogen Generator Construction

There are various materials you can use to cheaply build your own HHO generator, and I've
only ever built one, so all I can comment on is the suitability, endurance and price of the
materials I used.

To build my HHO generator I used the following items:

9 stainless steel plates 3 x 6 inches, 18 gauge. ($10, included the cutting fee)
2 ABS (like PVC) 4" end caps ($3 each at Totem Building Supplies)
3 3/8th's inch brass barbed hose fittings. ($1.99 for a pack of 2... $4.00 total)
1 bottle ABS glue ($8)
6 brass bolts, some nuts and washers too. (very cheap, typically $0.25 each)
1 3/8th inch vacuum tee, to feed the HHO into the air intake. ($1 if even that much)
X number of feet of wire to power it. I used a heavy gauge extension cord I hacked up
for the double insulation value, to protect against electrical shorts.
2 thread taps, one for the hose fittings, one for the electrical terminals. ($12)
Some spacers of some sort... I used rubber gromets... 40 cents each.

Also needed will be a 30 amp fuse w/holder, possibly a relay hooked to an "ignition on"
source so that the unit is only powered when the car is running or a switch is flipped.
I myself was in such a rush to try this thing I haven't added the switch or relay yet and
must disconnect the power every time I shut off the car. Someday I'll get to it.

When constructing your generator, it is important to keep in mind that as the water warms
up the current flow increases. This may cause your wiring to get warm, as well as the bolts
that protrude through the sealed HHO generator casing. In my first prototype I made the
mistake of using stainless steel bolts which have poorer conductivity than brass bolts.
As a result of the high resistance using stainless, more heat is made, and I actually had
a bolt melt its hole through the casing. In my latest version, I used brass bolts that were
thicker, and also doubled the number. ie: two for positive, two for negative. Since that
upgrade to brass, I've gotten the generator very hot with no problems.

You should also build yourself a "bubbler" and "backfire arrester".

A bubbler is nothing more than a bong. It is a separate vessel filled partially with water so that
the bubbles from the generator float up through the water leaving any electrolyte behind in water.
It also allows many millions of small bubbles from the generator to be condensed into bigger bubbles.

A spark arrester is a device that is designed to prevent any backfire from sending flame down
the feed line to your bubbler or generator. All it is is a piece of pipe filled with brass wool, with hoses coming out both ends.

Since a rotary's intake charge is nowhere near the hot spark plugs, a backfire is highly unlikely,
so it's more of an "option" imho, although, with a piston engine where the fuel/air charge is
exposed to the hot spark plugs, IT IS A MUST!!!

Electrolytes and Water

Some people prefer using distilled water, others, tap water. Since this entire subject
is about saving money, I just used tap water with some baking soda. I wasn't scientific
in my measurement proportions, but I'm using roughly 1/2 to 3/4 of a tablespoon of baking
soda to an estimated 2.5 to 3L of tap water. After viewing several videos on youtube.com
and comparing the results people got from pure water versus tap water, I can see no gain
by the added expense of distilled water.

Pictures of my unit, and how I installed it.


Below is a side view of my HHO cell. It's got 9 3x6 stainless steel plates arrayed as:
+N-N+N-N+N-N+ (n= neutral... connected to nothing)



In the following picture, you can better see the positive and negative connections as well
as the neutral plates. Neutral plates are said to double HHO production and cut the current
draw in half. While I haven't tried it without neutral plates, the videos I saw on youtube
seemed to confirm this.



I didn't quite have the room for the size of the HHO cell I made, so I mounted it in the
back of the car. Temporarily zip-tied to the left rear strut tower is the HHO cell. You
can see the doubled-up brass bolt terminals I refered to earlier, as having better heat
generation avoidance. They do get a little warm, but not nearly enough to melt the ABS
plastic like my first prototype did.

In this picture, as well as the following, you can also see the yellow extension cord(s)
I used to wire the cell up. I ran two lines, and used all three wires in each. This was to
allow for more current with less heat build up in the wiring.



Below is my "bubbler". It is just a big bong that allows for the trapping of electrolytes
that may flow up the hose coming out of the HHO generator. If you take the water out of the
bubbler and put it into the HHO generator at fill-up time, you can reuse your electrolyte
over and over thus avoiding having to add more.



Below is my connection to the intake. While some might suggest it is best to inject the HHO
gas prior to the MAS so that the MAS registers this flow, the fact remains that the vaccum
AFTER the throttle body is much stronger than before the throttle body, and the vacuum effect
does indeed help the ripping apart of water molecules. That is to say, HHO production is
greatly enhanced in a vacuum.




In Conclusion

This howto is in no way complete since I'm still in a learning curve myself.
I simply offer it as a way to save you money, and in the hopes others join in the
experimenting and impart knowledge to me.

Enjoy, and good luck.

Mike

Ctrl

P.S. DO VIEW this series on youtube about hydrogen fundementals in your engine. It really is a good source of info, especially to those who would want to tweak their timing for hydrogen's full benefit.

http://youtube.com/results?search_qu...rch_type=&aq=f

R.P.M.

iTrader: (3)

I'm pretty new to the whole hydrogen technology, but I wonder how it would work in a turbo'ed engine? You'd obviously have to inject it before the turbo....

Pretty interesting project! Props for trying it out!

I may try this with the 323 GTX turbo

Ctrl

I've never owned a turbo 7 yet, all mine have been NA. What little reading I have done here with turbo applications seem to give me the impression that the higher the boost, the faster your apex seals get spit out the tail pipe. Should a person wish to try it with a turbo application I think trying it on low boost at first would be the safest thing to do. You'd definately have to feed it into the intake prior to the turbo for sure. The boost preasure would push the HHO gas backwards to the generator....OTOH vacuum rocks! There's videos of people who have built their generators with see through plastic, and you can see very easily the results.

Here's a good example: http://youtube.com/watch?v=-lAWcGe8rL8

Predetonation might be a factor for sure. Hydrogen to gasoline is like what gasoline is to a pile of wood. Wood logs catch fire slowly unless kindled. That's what the hydrogen does to the gas... ignites it all, and very quickly, thus allowing greater time for the expansion of hot gasses, hence more power.

I'd strongly suggest that in addition to lowering boost while trying this, a metering valve should also be used on the HHO line instead of just feeding as much as you can, as quickly as you can like my NA application does.

OTOH, this dude who is presenting this info http://youtube.com/watch?v=hFifFR-4C28 states that hydrogen is a great octane booster and allows for ignition far closer to TDC, so it might actually be beneficial to high boost applications.

I'm definately curious as to what other's might learn in their experiments, especially the turbo crowd.

JIMMY54

iTrader: (2)

We've actually been working on a hydrogen generator these past few weeks...Tried different designs...

Our issue was that it was overheating....Pulling way too many amps (75+) but generated like crazy.... But i will try putting in some neutral plates and see if that will help.

Great to see others that are into this

Ctrl

From what I've read and observed on various videos, neutral plates are supposed to cut the current in half... worth a try for sure. I've never tested it without, I only took advice from those that have.

I've even seen one guy running two neutral plates between the cathode and anode plates. He claims it works, but does it? One can only try themselves.

One thing that I do want to try is using non conductive neutral plates.
As you likely know, the resemblance between the construction of a hho cell and an electrolytic capacitor are very similar. A capacitor stores a charge by having a non-conductive material between the charged plates. While that is great in theory, how would it apply to a hho cell?

It's my layman's guess that what really separates H from O isn't the current through the water, but rather the PULL/attraction of the oppositely charged plate. In fact, in theory, that IS what pulls the atoms apart.. not the conductivity itself. So what I aim to do is modify my existing cell so the neutral plates act more like the dielectric in a capacitor and see how that goes. ie: use plastic or something else non-conductive for the N plates

You might want to consider using a PWM for amps control. I bought some plans for an HHO kit that includes a fairly easy to build PWM. It's a .pdf I paid $50 bucks for, but I'd be happy to send you a copy.

JIMMY54

iTrader: (2)

I agree that what does seperate the H and O is the pull of the opposite plate... My father back in the 70's tried to build a Hyrdogen system, but used Carbon rods for the Cathode and Anode plates...The result was that either the Cathode or Anode(doesnt remeber) completely disapeared and became part of the other.
Also, I've seen some diagrams on the web, which show that it is possible to collect strickly the hydrogen at one end, and the oxygen at the other.

One difference between my system aswell, is that i am using Acid in the water instead of Baking soda, which is also a great conductor.

Monday i will hopefully get a chance to try out the Neutral plates and report back if there is an improvement.

As far as controlling the amps, i've discovered that by changing the ratio of water to Baking Soda/Acid, that will vary the amps being pulled.
I had thought about purchasing some plans aswell, but didnt trust the websites... I would love to see the plans for the controller, but for now i'm going to try this out and see if i get it under control... If not i'll PM you...

Ctrl

Here's some free plans... http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/Smack.pdf

I watched the authors vids on youtube.... seems to have a decent low temp, low draw system. Check it out... http://youtube.com/watch?v=CxPQdrfSySI

renns

If you're going to play with this sort of thing, I'd suggest keeping the HHO generation out of the passenger compartment. No use giving Darwin any help!

From a practical standpoint, even at high HHO production efficiencies the energy released burning the gases will be far less than that required to create them in the first place. When you can idle the engine on straight generated HHO without discharging your battery, then you'll know you've just shattered the 2nd law of thermodynamics. In the meantime, apply suitable safety precautions with this sort of thing, and please get that equipment out of the cockpit!!

Ctrl

First of all, from the safety standpoint, I'm not storing any hyrdogen. I'm storing WATER, which causes no big bangs. Yes, there will be a tiny little bit in the line, which is nowhere near enough to blow me or my car up. The feed line is under a vacuum, or at WOT suction, call it what you like. The line is continuously vacated of any HHO it might have in it. Thus no or little buildup.

As for the second law of thermodynamics, I will fully agree with you that the 2lotd states that you cannot get more energy OUT than is put IN. I agree fully with you.

I also ask you to explain why the USA didn't drop the atomic bomb DETONATOR on the japs (alone) instead of the detonator ALONG WITH a couple pounds of Uranium, when bombing Hiroshima?

You see, according to your assertions, the Enola Gaye would have been better off dropping the detonator only... can't make less in, more out, can you? Bullshit, and I just proved it.

Same thing... pulling a trigger... (1 or 2 calories maybe?)... how much energy came out the muzzle of the gun?

You see, like the above examples, it's not about "making" energy, it's about releasing it, or triggering it.

Re-examine this subject in that light, then get back to me.
When I say re-examine, I mean, go build one, then refute.
Until then, you're just spewing the gov/miltary/oil/media complex
want you to believe.

I will point out one more thing... even if you are right about the second law of thermodynamics, you can't prove one way or the other how the added HHO helps burn the existing GAS.

HHO still needs gas Sir. What it does is allow some small quantity of free added fuel to help the over all gasoline cumbustion. Since rotaries WASTE so much gas, they need all the help they can get. Hydrogen is to gas, what small twigs, leaves and kindling are to setting logs on fire. That's where your benefit lies, in better burning of the gas.

I know this is a rotary forum, but a piston example exemplifies better.
Gas is a slow burner. It has to be ignited several degrees before TDC, with the optimum of the flame front timed for TDC, to allow for the most efficient burning of gasoline. And since the ignition is before TDC, the compression is trying to work against expanding gasses in the flame front prior to TDC. It's a built in inefficiency within the nature of gasoline itself. In other words, the piston is trying to come up with a force on it pushing down BESIDES compression.... inefficient.

Hydrogen addition allows for setting your timing a lot closer to TDC, where in a "prefect world" it would be... as well as burning all the gas usually making flames out your pipe...

renns

So what happens if the hose pops off your generator? Now you are pumping that highly reactive mix into your cockpit. If you are aware and happy taking that risk, so be it. Just thought you should be aware.

As for the 'technology', all sorts of fuel economy boosters popped up during the last fuel crisis in the 70's as well. Take a look in the back of an old Popular Mechanics for all sorts of shenanigans. Strangely, 'big oil' must have suppressed all those technologies for the last 30 years. Good luck with your experiments, but do be safe.

Ctrl

It's a good point you make and I'd like to make something smaller, more efficient and up infront of the car anyhow.

I doubt it is anymore dangerous than having a gas can in the back of your car.
I've seen what a gas can can be like when expanded by the heat of the sun...
a ballooning time bomb. If it were to puncture or leak fumes from the cap it's
a disaster waiting to happen, OTOH, hydrogen, the fastest escaping gas there is
has a lot less likelyhood of building up in any great concentration.

Valdez

iTrader: (1)

Is it a subtle difference in power, or a very obvious change that you can't miss?

nik

You are awesome. I think this is one of the most aggressive spewings of garbage information and misunderstanding on this forum that I have ever seen. The tesla turbine stuff was pretty decent too.

now

iTrader: (1)

someone should forward this info to Stephen Hawking
i think there is a thing or two he might learn here!

Righty

iTrader: (4)

Proved him wrong? Sorry. Don't think so.

I'll use the bullet example to show you.
Finding sodium 50nm
Refining sodium 50nm
Mixing it with 2 other ingredients, mixing, melting and creating a shell, Doing the same with some other ingredients, milling, assembly of the firearm, packaging shipping both and your 30grams for the trigger pull........ Priceless? BUZZZZZ! wrong answer.

You will never get more then what you put in, BUT if we are putting in gas already, why not get a little more back?


AND For the record, They dropped Plutonium on Hiroshima, and Uranium on Nagasaki.

nik

It's sad when the people trying to prove someone wrong are stating things just as incorrect. What is this forum coming to?

Theron

iTrader: (1)

Did you see a MPG improvement?

What gains did you get?

Righty

iTrader: (4)

Maddd Revive.

Yes. I was wrong. They dropped Uranium on Hiroshima, and Plutonium on Nagasaki.
AND I used the wrong unit for energy. I used Force (50nm)

So To revise it,

I'll use the bullet example to show you.
Finding sodium 50joules/watts
Refining sodium 50joules/watts
Mixing it with 2 other ingredients, mixing, melting and creating a shell, Doing the same with some other ingredients, milling, assembly of the firearm, packaging shipping both and your 30joules/watts for the trigger pull........ Priceless? BUZZZZZ! wrong answer.

blamming

NIK and NOW, what is the reason for you posting replies on this thread? If this HHO thing doesn't work, what's it to you? You're not putting your money into anything so you have nothing to loose. At least Ctrl is trying to do something that if it works will benefit society and your comments don't benefit anyone. Also you are acting on knowledge that you have simply accepted as being true, energy cannot be created nor destroyed we all get it. What you have done is assumed that this is what he plans on doing. Here is something that pretty much everyone who has ever owned a rotary can agree on, the tend to flood themselves. This means there is too much fuel going into the chambers than what is being burned, what the HHO gas does is burns at a much faster and hotter rate, hot enough to burn the fuel that was currently being sent to the exhaust unburned. Using a HHO converter does not create energy, the plan is to use the electrical energy that is converted into HHO through electrolysis to burn the fuel you have more efficiently.

You also make reference to the Tesla turbine, maybe you should research Nikola Tesla and some of his inventions. Many of those you would have laughed at as well as they contradict what we even today believe to be possible.

You can call people idiots today but watch out, technology is changing and you may find yourself to be the idiot tomorrow.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

The whole HHO thing is one big scam. It can never work. Flies in the face of basic science.

This comes up all the time on my forum. Here's a link to a topic which proves HHO as seen in this thread doesn't work:
http://www.aaroncake.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7606

This also is not a new idea. It's been around for a hundred years. Check the online patent searches.

now

iTrader: (1)

your right I tested my reference to the fan in front of the wind mill and just about $hit myself!
my 500w windmill has been running inside my house for weeks now with only the wind from the fan
that's plugged into the wind mill.
I think I just found the perpetual motion machine I have been looking for.
unfortunately there isn't enough power left over to do anything more than run the fan
so its not much more than a fun contraption to watch.
I must work harder on efficiency!
I am sure a larger investment could result in more positive results and I am accepting donations
to make a better future for everyone.
btw
its Apr 1st
Matt

Feds

Don't poke the noob. He might pop, and you'll get noob juice on you.

blamming

Do Rotary's waste gas? Do they flood themselves?

Here's a thought, you can get better mileage and more power by using better spark plugs correct? If this isn't the case then why do they sell a range of spark plugs? So are you getting more power than you put in? No! Do the better spark plugs burn the fuel more efficiently? Yes! Now if my RX7 is flooding itself then it is running inefficiently. Spark plugs can only go so far. I'm not saying you'll end up with more energy than was put in. but here's an idea, instead of letting raw fuel be sent out my exhaust or be burnt in my catalytic converter, why don't I burn it the way it's supposed to be burnt, in the combustion chamber. Do rotary's flood? Yes they do and that means wasted fuel.

How about you post something useful. Don't poke the noob? wow you're right I just joined this site, I have what 6 posts? that must mean I was born yesterday. I guess I could go and get a few thousand posts by putting useless comments on every thread. More threads means more intelligence right? Here's an idea, if you want to help, then help. Other wise get out of the way of progress. And you know what, yeah maybe he's just wasting his time but thats his problem not yours. What do you have to gain by knocking his idea or anyone for that matter?

Feds

See what happens when you poke a noob? Let that be a lesson to the rest of you.

I have no issue with whatever anyone wants to hook to their car. Their time, their money. You, however, dug a thread out of the jurassic era so that you could flame a couple of pretty smart and capable members of this forum. Not cool.

As it relates to your personal issues: If your car is flooding out, you have a mechanical/electrical/fuel issue. Putting your time and effort into fixing it properly would get you much higher increases in power and mileage than cobbling together an HHO system.

Now, onto the HHO systems in general. If they work, and work so well, strap one to a dyno, and do 2 pulls. 1 with HHO on, and one with it off. 10-40% difference should be easily noticeable. That, of course, ignores the side effects of the HHO system like the fact that you burn more energy to create the HHO gas than you get back from it, while simultaneously shortening the life of your alternator. Again, go ahead and install one, but just be sure to compare it with a factory-correct car before telling the world how you've just violated the laws of thermodynamics.

As for spark plugs. I couldn't agree with you more. I actually have my spark plugs hand made using Unobtanium cores. The ceramic is rolled on the thighs of virgin women from a small island off the coast of South America. Combined with my special leading/trailing split, they are the secret to my 400 hp stock-port NA motor.

Finally, lighten up. If there is one thing that is KEY to owning a rotary, it's a good sense of humor. If you really take yourself this seriously, you'll be far better off in a Supra or a BMW.