Prôdigy2nd

iTrader: (3)

maybe in BC but I am unaware of any E85 in Alberta...

I know the ethanol helps keeps intake temps down, as well as few other things..

my biggest issue is that according to the pumps it says "up to 10%", not 9, or 10 or 33...


but up too..
and something where they have it posted right on the pumps like that... i'm not sure if it should be trusted.. it is more then likely them just covering their own ***... but if using a lower grade, but more consistent fuel helps for tuning and knowing the vehicles limits... it might be better to go on the safe side.... these are rotaries after all....



J.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

You should inform yourself if the 94 actually has any ethanol. The Sunoco and Shell pumps have the same stickers. but 91 and 94 do not have ethanol.

thewird

Prôdigy2nd

iTrader: (3)

Yeah I was considering taking a sample and sending it away to see the actual content of what's in the fuel, lab tests are really the only good way to know....


J.

ourxseven

iTrader: (1)

my understanding is the big secret about ethanol never talked about is its ability to absorb lots of moisture from the air and you really should be using fuel stabilizer with ethanol fuels if you gas sits around for even a few weeks

thewird

iTrader: (8)

I did some more research into it and it seems it makes a small AFR difference if its truly 10% ethanol. The higher octane fuels shouldn't have ethanol but you should check with the company or run a test like you said. If you take a sample, make sure you fill a few liters somewhere first to get the other gas out of the line.

thewird

Roen

iTrader: (2)

Also remember that Ethanol has a higher ocatane rating that gasoline, if that hasn't been mentioned already.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

That's already taken into account in the octane rating. Thats the reason they use it to begin with. To make cheaper cheap gas. For example Shell does this...

87 - up to 10% ethanol
89 - up to 5% ethanol
91 - no ethanol

Sunoco probably does a similar thing but doesn't list it on the pumps. The 94 they sell has no ethanol.

thewird

Double_J

iTrader: (28)

Have any of you guys thought of using E85? I had not even noticed it till today when I was driving through Guelph.

From the sounds of it you can lower your egt, and produce more power compared to racing gas (110 octane).

And it is apparently comparable in price to regular fuel.

anees

iTrader: (6)

so again thanx a lot .. so far i think wat u guys teln me that .. 94 is better coz it builds less carbon... burns slowly ... more mileage
regardless how heavy my foot is on gas
rite

p4nc7

iTrader: (1)

no.
Read it all again.

Chad D.

iTrader: (2)

I have almost always used 94 sunoco in my old FD and in my new rx8

rx7racerca

iTrader: (1)

Can't speak to Ontario, but around here, the higher octane fuels have the heaviest ethanol content (about 10% of the Husky/Mohawk 94 here in Calgary and Alberta, the only pump 94 available), because the higher compression ignition resistance of ethanol lets them make cheaper expensive gas - ethanol is relatively expensive compared to regular gas (generally has traded at a little less than the price of regular, but not enough for it to make a good substitute because given it's lower energy content, it ends up costing more per km driven). Being able to substitute 129RON ethanol in place of relatively valuable iso-octane, on the other hand, makes ethanol a boon to creating high octane-rating fuel. This is also why I said higher octane fuels tend to have lower energy content (and therefore mileage, relative to a 91 or 94 fuel relying on iso-octane and toluene as well as additives to increase it's RON/MON#).
If they were really using a lot of iso-octane and toluene in the fuel to create a higher octane rating, it has essentially the same energy content as fuel with heavier heptane content. However, because ethanol has dramatically higher knock resistance, even though it also contains about 30% less energy by volume, you use more fuel to go a given distance if it's using ethanol to get the bigger octane #s.

Mr. Eccentric

I don't have an FD, I have an FC, so I apologize that this is slightly out of the scope of the question, but it does support what someone brought up.

I used Sunoco in my '89 FC (stock spec) for some time, and eventually one day after I put some in the car started choking, bucking like a rodeo bull, and would stall out. I can't recall how I dealt with it because it was awhile back and frankly I just don't remember, I also don't remember how I determined it was likely the ethanol content that was the problem, but that's the final determination I made. I haven't used Sunoco since, and the car has behaved without drama. From that point I've used Shell as from what I understand, it has no ethanol in it. I see the marketing that it now has some sort of nitrogen content, and have no idea if that is having any impact, but through the course of driving last summer I didn't encounter any difficulties. So octane count aside, I don't know if ethanol is a good match to the rotary engine. Why or why not I don't have any substantiating evidence, but that's just my personal experience and suspicion. Maybe there was moisture absorbed as one mentioned. More of a problem for those who don't drive their cars often, which is many an RX-7 owners.

Also, based on Sunoco's site, 94 has the same up to 10% ethanol.
http://www.sunoco.ca/default.aspx?ID=2390

JDK

iTrader: (8)

Seems Sunoco and Perto Canada have merged, both sell 94 octane fuel, not sure if the blends are the same but it's good to know we have other choices ( note: not all Petro Can's have the 94). This is off the Petro Can site:

Suncor Energy Inc. now markets under both the Petro-Canada and Sunoco brands in Canada, creating the country’s premier integrated energy company. We’re excited about what this change means for Canada and as always, we’re committed to providing you with the very best in high quality products and great customer service!

Just thought i would though this out there, I think i will continue to use Sunoco 94 for the ethanol content.

JDK

iTrader: (8)

FYI: E85 is only available at 3 location's in Ontario and you must have a E85 vehicle with a matching vin before they will sell it to you, they will not sell in drums/jerry cans or in bulk.
Yes Canada is way behind on this product, you can buy it anywhere in the USA just like you buy gasoline....

Double_J

iTrader: (28)

Only 3 spots that is strange. One of them is on a hill billy road between cambridge and guelph and they have a huge sign saying they sell it.

One day I will drive out there again to see if they will sell it and if so how much.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

That is very interesting. I had always assumed they didn't use any ethanol in their 94 like Shell doesn't use it in their 91. Maybe thats the reason some people claim better gas mileage with Shells 91. But anyway, I have never noticed any fluctuations in AFR's between fillups and I run open loop so no corrections. Which means their formula's are pretty consistent and unchanging. I also, noticed no difference in AFR's when we went to the GAP and filled up at varying gas stations. I always put 91/93 in though, some people were putting in 87 >_>.

Also, I'm pretty sure the stations will sell you E85. Just say your car was custom modd'd for it. If that doesn't work, get the FlexFUEL sticker lol. I wouldn't really consider E85 unless it becomes commonplace at every pump. You would have to redesign your fuel system as well. I don't believe it to be cheaper either since you use more of it (about 33% more then gasoline) to get the same energy. Maybe its not commonplace because someone in Canada realized its a dumb idea to use our food to make fuel raising the cost of food if it ever became mass produced.

thewird

rx7racerca

iTrader: (1)

To get the best advantage from E85, you have to tune for it - the high octane rating means higher compression is needed to take advantage of it's knock resistance (or in the case of rotaries, higher boost). Flex fuel vehicles obviously don't change their compression ratios to suit whatever fuel gets put in, so they primarily rely on spark advance/retard and fuel metering to adjust to allow the engine to run on either.

The problem with tuning a boosted 7 to take advantage of the knock resistance of E85 is that it's hard to find, so you need to be sure of it's ongoing availability where you travel to consider it - and E85 is rare in Canada (only Ontario, I believe - and apparently only 3 stations!), and becoming less available in the States, as lower fuel prices, increased corn prices, and loss of some subsidies is leading to ethanol refineries (stills?) being shuttered.

I'm pretty sure you should be able to order yourself a drum of straight ethanol, but no idea what it would cost, or shipping, which would likely be high. Consumer Reports ordered some by the drum to their Vermont headquarters, since no E85 fuel was sold in New England and they wanted to test some flex-fuel cars. I'm pretty sure I've heard of people getting it shipped to Canada as well, just can't place where or what it cost.

JDK

iTrader: (8)

[QUOTE=thewird;9729264]

Also, I'm pretty sure the stations will sell you E85. Just say your car was custom modd'd for it. If that doesn't work, get the FlexFUEL sticker lol. I wouldn't really consider E85 unless it becomes commonplace at every pump. You would have to redesign your fuel system as well. I don't believe it to be cheaper either since you use more of it (about 33% more then gasoline) to get the same energy. Maybe its not commonplace because someone in Canada realized its a dumb idea to use our food to make fuel raising the cost of food if it ever became mass produced.

thewird[/QUOT



Lets us know if and where you can get it, I wouldn't consider using it as well unless I could buy it at the corner station, you would also have to tune for the climate changes we have here( summer blend is E85/Fall E70, so you would have to tune for each season.
The only fuel system changes you would need to do are very large Primary injectors...like 1300cc....so for you you would run 2-1600cc and 2 1300cc injectors.

Over

Jay Efini

all ive ever used in any car including my FC and FD is 94 from Sunoco since there is 4 within 20min of me and the closest is 10min..and well other obvious reasons

Double_J

iTrader: (28)

I'm not interested in E85 till others use it, and its more readily available.

But there is an easy arguement to be made why one should switch.

For those who race their cars you get comparable performance of 110 octane gas.

Cheaper than race gas even if you use 30% more fuel.

No carbon build up in your engines.

And for those tree huggers it is a renewable energy source. I wonder what the emmissions are like and also how easily the price of this fuel is impacted.

rx7racerca

iTrader: (1)

For the tree huggers, it is rather questionable whether corn ethanol, as done in North America, is "renewable", since the EPA has determined more fossil fuel energy is used to grow the corn (farm equipment, fertilizers), transport (to processing plants, and then ship by rail or truck, since its hydrophillic quality makes ethanol unsuitable for pipelines), and process the corn to ethanol. The short of it being a gallon of ethanol contains less energy than the fossil fuels used in creating it.

anees

iTrader: (6)

i talked to two of my friends who previously owned an fd
they both used 91 octane and never had any problems
but they recommended me to use 94..coz it gives a little better mileage than 91 and its also better performance wise?
is it true

rx7racerca

iTrader: (1)

^^Already addressed, but no advantage performance or mileage-wise unless more boost and/or spark advance, which is unlikely on a stock car, although you can tune for that if using a stand-alone. If the 94 rating comes from adding ethanol, mileage will likely be lower due to the lower energy content of that fuel.

Chad D.

iTrader: (2)

I have read that ethanol emissions are just as bad as dino.