Narfle

iTrader: (16)

I take it you're idling the car during this process?

TomU

iTrader: (11)

After a track session, yes. Idle 3-5 mins, then let sit (not idling) 5-10 mins with fans on, then crank back up briefly to circulate the cooler oil/water, then shut down with the hood up till the next session. Times are varied depending on temps.

This process would a whole lot simpler/effective with an EWP/EOP

Rocketeerbandit

iTrader: (3)

How you perform your cool down tracking your car is exactly how I perform mine during my autocross

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

You guys really need to consider Evans NPG+

My experience, including down here in blazing hot Florida----

(this is hard street driving)

water temps stay from 83 to 87 and don't exceed 90 C, oil temps tend to stay at 170F and will move up to as hot as 200F in stop and go

on shutdown, barely any heat soak at all, I'm talking 90-95 when key on after the car has sat---zero pinging from the engine bay as it cools off, zero gurgling in the coolant as it heat soaks after shutdown

Oh, and it's a pressureless system. Easy on the cooling system.

Of course, my setup has been heavily modified...... SBG dual properly ducted 25 row coolers, A-Spec V mount, single turbo etc.

Also, I recently hacked the hell out of an old OEM under tray to get it to work with my v-mount, and although there's maybe half of the damn thing left my intake temps dropped a large amount, like 10 degrees C on the PFC commander.

Rocketeerbandit

iTrader: (3)

I won't take any of your advice until you change your location and be proud of it ��

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

So, I haven't gotten to the track with my current FD. But after a spirited drive I try to bring it in the neighborhood easy and then idle it for a couple minutes in the driveway.
I do hear good reviews on the Evans NPG, but I just don't have much need in my current application. Zero pressure is a big draw, but the heat transfer worries me I guess.

TomU

iTrader: (11)

That's voodoo science

Word to the wise, the world is flat

fdracer

why delete your initial post then ben? if you have something to say that may help someone in the community one day, then spit it the **** out. it's just a douchebag move to go around saying how people are getting ripped off but not provide real information to actually help them and future victims. if you know **** and don't speak up, doesn't that make you as bad as the perpetrators?

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

I'd recommend trying Engine Ice:

POWERSPORT INDUSTRY?S #1 ENGINE COOLANT - Engine Ice

Like Evans, it is a propylene glycol-based coolant, meaning you will get a much higher boiling point than water or standard antifreeze. That means no boiling of the system during hard running. This is good as steam pockets in the system can cause engine failure and as the Evans and Engine Ice stay in a "liquid state", this won't happen. The Evans boiling point is over 375 F while Engine Ice is around 256 F. I believe both of these are with no pressure and if you run a pressurized cap, then the temp protections go up much higher. I run a standard 0.9 bar cap so my guess is the boiling point of the Engine Ice is around 325 F but this is an estimate. Regardless, I'd say if you get this hot, you are screwed either way. Also, running a pressures system has its advantages but I have never had a coolant seal failure and don't believe running the stock pressure will cause issues for me.

Unlike Evans, though, you will achieve cooler normal operating temps. This is because Engine Ice also contains distilled water (and other stuff) and water is the best at reducing temps by removing heat from the system. Simply put, pure propylene glycol is not nearly as efficient at removing heat because as the percentage of propylene glycol in the mixture goes up (and Evans is 100%), it's ability to reduce heat goes down. If boiling were no issue (and it is for rotaries), you'd just use water and call it a day as it can remove more heat than anything else.

The problems wiht just water though are several. First, it has a low 212 F boiling point (no good for rotaries) or 100 C. On the track, you will see 100 C fairly easily and if you use the AC in your FD, you could see it then. Now when you run a pressurized system, the boiling point of water will go up so you will get more boiling protection. Water is also corrosive, meaning you need to add in something so it doesn't rust and finally, you get no protection against freezing, whereas the Evans and Engine Ice (and regular antifreeze for that matter) give good protection.

So, what is the perfect solution? For me, it's combining the high boiling temps of a propylene glycol solution with the superior temp reducing capabilities of water. Hence, I use Engine Ice as that is what it is.

Does it work? I ran very similar temps to what Rich described with Engine Ice. Prior to Engine Ice, my 3 rotor was a heat bomb and would see temps around 100 C just cruising around and if I used the AC, then I was in the 103 C range. Now, and in the heat of the FL summer and with Engine Ice, I saw temps around 83 - 87 C and no higher than 90 C with the AC on.

To be fair, my guess is both cars benefit greatly from v-mount setups and this contributes the most to our low engine temps. FYI - I too have 25 row oil coolers that are well ducted and my oil temps are spot on to what Rich observed in his car. The v-mount is the best solution for keeping the FD cool, period. But, Engine Ice most certainly helps as I did runs back to back first with regular (the green stuff) coolant and then with Engine Ice. Saw temp drops of around 10 degrees F with much quicker cool down of the car at idle. Not sure why the car now cools down quicker and the tests were run with the v-mount in place but that is what we saw.

Finally, I still run no under tray but will probably slap one back on to see how the car fares with the v-mount setup. I took off my fancy Shine 99 spec under tray as it increased my calling temps around 10 C when on with my previous front mount intercooler setup. Crazy but true.

Rocketeerbandit

iTrader: (3)

Thanks David, they are 25 mins from me so I'll go peek in to check it out.

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

Nice guys. You could do a before and after with the temps.

boostin13b

Awesome thread. I've seen your car posted on Autox buddies and was wondering who the car belonged to. I'm sure I'll run into you when we make it out to one of the Orlando events. Love how close to stock you are keeping the car, we need more of this going on. You really can't beat the original focus of FDs.

Rocketeerbandit

iTrader: (3)

Thank you! Looking forward to meeting and possibly beating you lol jk

All 9s ngk plugs
Spark plugs were installed in January. I've done 4-5 autocross events, Deals Gap, mainly run on 93 non ethanol, use 20/50 idemitsu oil, and 1/2 oz per gallon of Idemistu premix on every fill up of 16 gallons, HKS Twin Power


Untitled by Gerald Mugar, on Flickr

Rocketeerbandit

iTrader: (3)

I just signed up to participate in SCCA's AX August 27th/28th which is a two day event


Central Florida Region SCCA - Sat, Aug 27 - 28, 2016 Autocross/Solo II


I might go to Tavares Next Sunday

boostin13b

Too hot to race during the summer, This is the time of year we take on a decent project, rear subframe bushings are in store this month. Do you have many people run in your class? We run in SM and rarely have competitors.

On the coolant topic, I agree with David Hayes, I've been using Evans NPG+ for years with great success, doesn't cool as well as water but the knock resistance you get when you don't have vapor pockets is great so you can safely run higher temps. Having no pressure in your cooling system is another plus especially when you have plastic components (it's big with the BMW guys.) It's definitely good insurance especially down here in the heat.

Rocketeerbandit

iTrader: (3)

I'm going to take yours and David's opinion seriously on this coolant. I run ASP though I should be in a higher class because of the 99 spec turbos but I only get one competitor every time I run which sucks. I don't go to compete but to have fun

RCCAZ 1

iTrader: (10)

What's the correlation between vapor pockets and engine knock? I thought knock was mainly a product of intake temps, octane and engine timing, no? Just trying to understand.

Thx

boostin13b

I don't want to thread jack this build thread, you can search to find many threads on specifics. In short, these pockets of superheated steam create hot spots around different parts of the combustion areas not allowing the engine to operate as designed. I don't know how susceptible rotaries are to this problem but in piston engines, hot spots around the cylinder walls can lead to preignition especially in those engines that have been bored with thinner walls. I think hotrod magazine or one of the sorts did a test on a twin turbo S10 drag truck and were able to add another couple degrees of timing safely netting a crazy amount of horsepower just by converting to evans and reducing their knock at those areas of timing.

I like it because you have a consistent thermal blanket without having 260 degree spots in this part of the engine and having a gauge showing 190 degrees. We all know how dangerous extreme heat can be to housings causing them to warp and even crack so I don't like the possibility of having superheated gasses in vulnerable spots. They can take their toll on coolant seals as well. You will see a higher average temp reading when you convert and that's because evans doesn't cool as well as water but you are getting consistent heat dissipation.

RCCAZ 1

iTrader: (10)

Ok, cool. Learned something, thanks for the explanation!

Rocketeerbandit

iTrader: (3)

I'm very depressed right now. Not sure when the cloud looming over my head will clear up. The car is getting towed to Kilo Racing in a week when he clears some space and jobs to store my car.

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

Well, that appears to be coolant. When that happened to me back in the 2 rotor days, I had blown a coolant seal on the twins. That led me to upgrading to a single.

Regardless, if it's an engine thing, Kilo will take care of it. I don't know I have ever seen a Kilo engine have bad coolant seals, especially this quick. He takes special pride in installing coolant seals.

Mrmatt3465

iTrader: (10)

RIP coolant seals

Rocketeerbandit

iTrader: (3)

Hey David, he wasn't the builder. Lowes Automotive built the motor in Sarasota.

How do the coolant seals blow out? Is it like a head gasket on a piston motor? But more work removing the motor?

Can parts be salvaged and is it okay? I read that it could be the thin side walls. This motor had new rotors and housing done 26k miles ago.

Was I too hard on the engine? I did bang through the gears on the highways. I also autocrossed and ran errands with the car. Car only saw no higher then 13 lbs of boost other then one spoke that was 14 when Pettit racing was manipulating boost pressure trying to find out why the secondary wasn't working prioperly. The coolant light came on 2 years ago when i was an idiot and didn't put the cap on the radiator for a test drive and pulled over right away and the cap was in the engine bay where I left it. Umm also at the beginning of the ownership one of the fan motor burnt out and luckily I was just about home going over a river causeway.

Trying to make everything clear and in the light of the motors history.

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

Well, that sucks.

While this still could still be from the turbos, the coolant seals can blow out for a number of reasons. They could have been installed incorrectly in the first place (many guys pinch them while installing), or they could have have been reused. I think (the mechanics out there can correct me on this) you can check to see if it is the engine coolant seals by removing a spark plug and seeing if it smells like coolant. If so, then it's going to be an engine seal.

Can the parts be salvaged? You won't know that until you pull the engine apart and inspect. You might be able to get by with just refreshing the engine with a seal kit but look to Kilo to lead you on this. He won't sell you stuff you don't need.

Nothing you describe above would lead me to think you did something to cook the seals. Hang in there and let Kilo inspect and then go from there.

Rocketeerbandit

iTrader: (3)

Here we go
No oil in the exhaust side piping intercooler or y pipe crossover

Oil is extremely sticky and it's accumulated and puddled a quarter size from the downpipe connecting to the midpipe.

Untitled by Gerald Mugar, on Flickr



Untitled by Gerald Mugar, on Flickr



Untitled by Gerald Mugar, on Flickr