Mannykillers/ AAPARKAH Street/time Attack/Drift Build (heavy Pics) #Thisisthewolf
11-13-13, 10:02 AM
#1703
I am sorry to hear about your misfortune. I say learn how to tune it yourself. I have heard more horror storries about people getting their car tuned then people learning how to tune their car themselves and tuning it.
I tuned mine, as long as you start with a conservative timing map, the air fuel ratio will come, start rich and lean it out.
you will also work at your own pace, which is slow, and you will triple check everything. no one pressuring you to do anything stupid.
I tuned mine, as long as you start with a conservative timing map, the air fuel ratio will come, start rich and lean it out.
you will also work at your own pace, which is slow, and you will triple check everything. no one pressuring you to do anything stupid.
I'm still un-decided wholly on internal/vs external. Internal is cheaper, easier, less failure points, and honestly just the smarter choice. But secretly I like wasting money, figuring out how to make things fail less frequently and I just love making horrible illogical decisions 
I'd go with the EFR 8374. I remember you telling me about yours....looking forward to feeling the difference..although hopefully this time I'll be over 300whp and on a healthy tune Hard to compare and contrast turbo characteristics when you've never had a healthy comparison hah. <---its actually very sad...
We'll see what the future holds. But as always, i'll keep you guys updated as the ball starts to roll. First things first.... and that's to get the motor back to Howard
11-13-13, 11:49 AM
#1704
Wastegate John
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I still want to keep my manifold long and I'm confident that our valve-less motors will benefit from long runners strictly based off exhaust gas reversion. Now hopefully I can find a tuner that will be able to really take advantage of the long runners. I'm looking for someone who can take advantage of thermal expansion within the runners to really Kick the exhaust wheel. It's possible, and I'm confident I have someone lined up who can do it without popping heart #4
We'll see what the future holds. But as always, i'll keep you guys updated as the ball starts to roll. First things first.... and that's to get the motor back to Howard
Also, how thermal expansion in a long manifold that will absorb heat will increase performance.
Do you have any technical sources that can further explain the principles behind your manifold design, I am curious as my understand of both principals that you mention would hinder performance, not help it.
11-13-13, 02:28 PM
#1707
Wastegate John
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As you said... that is the jist of it.
What the article does not mention about exhaust reversion is, that it is generally only a problem at low RPM. (you have a relatively late opening intake port relatively speaking) I highly doubt that at 4kRPM and above reversion is a problem as the intake and exhaust velocities are high. Due to the high velocities the air carries more momentum and it is much harder for it to change direction (ie go back into the rotor chamber). All things that "article" does not mention.
Also, just reading that article it mentions divided manifolds
One of the huge benefits of a twin scroll divided set-up is that it pairs exhaust runners who are 180 degrees apart from each other in their firing order together. This cuts WAY down on exhaust reversion. For example, on a four-cylinder motor you would pair cylinder 1 with 4 and 2 with 3."
Due to the rotary engine not having an exhaust valve and the exhaust port being peripheral using a short manifold will all the utilization of the powerful exhaust pulse that happens when the exhaust port opens. Making the manifold long diminishes the pulse strength reducing response.
Personally as you know, I think you should make a short manifold. Especially since you will be making another one anyway.
11-13-13, 10:25 PM
#1709
also, because you guys asked for my two cents (maybe not), here's what i'd do:
1. get your rebuilt engine back in the car, taking your time, making sure to not pinch any wires
2. you've already dumped stupid money into this car. don't blow more money on an EFR turbo and new manifold. do the CHRA core exchange program with your GTX35 core via turblown and have him install your GTX compressor wheel on it and you have a badass NEW garrett GTX turbo for like $700
3. get a competent tuner to tune your car for 12psi on 91 octane
4. make 375whp on low boost and gasoline, and enjoy the car
(optional: sell adaptronic and get a haltech ps1k. you should check out the haltech software on youtube and compare it to the adaptronic)
1. get your rebuilt engine back in the car, taking your time, making sure to not pinch any wires
2. you've already dumped stupid money into this car. don't blow more money on an EFR turbo and new manifold. do the CHRA core exchange program with your GTX35 core via turblown and have him install your GTX compressor wheel on it and you have a badass NEW garrett GTX turbo for like $700
3. get a competent tuner to tune your car for 12psi on 91 octane
4. make 375whp on low boost and gasoline, and enjoy the car
(optional: sell adaptronic and get a haltech ps1k. you should check out the haltech software on youtube and compare it to the adaptronic)
11-14-13, 12:11 AM
#1710
Rotary Enthusiast
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also, because you guys asked for my two cents (maybe not), here's what i'd do:
1. get your rebuilt engine back in the car, taking your time, making sure to not pinch any wires
2. you've already dumped stupid money into this car. don't blow more money on an EFR turbo and new manifold. do the CHRA core exchange program with your GTX35 core via turblown and have him install your GTX compressor wheel on it and you have a badass NEW garrett GTX turbo for like $700
3. get a competent tuner to tune your car for 12psi on 91 octane
4. make 375whp on low boost and gasoline, and enjoy the car
(optional: sell adaptronic and get a haltech ps1k. you should check out the haltech software on youtube and compare it to the adaptronic)
1. get your rebuilt engine back in the car, taking your time, making sure to not pinch any wires
2. you've already dumped stupid money into this car. don't blow more money on an EFR turbo and new manifold. do the CHRA core exchange program with your GTX35 core via turblown and have him install your GTX compressor wheel on it and you have a badass NEW garrett GTX turbo for like $700
3. get a competent tuner to tune your car for 12psi on 91 octane
4. make 375whp on low boost and gasoline, and enjoy the car
(optional: sell adaptronic and get a haltech ps1k. you should check out the haltech software on youtube and compare it to the adaptronic)
That is what I did. except my goal was only for 300WHP or a little more up here in colorado thin air and a GT3574R turbo.
I think for most people water injection gives a false sense of security. I could see it doing well for a safety thing, but I wouldn't push the boost over what the octane of the gas can handle. I guess I am just too conservative.
and honestly, I still don't fully understand the whole PSI limit thing. I understand that compression goes up, as does temps, but I am sure the larger portion of the equation is air intake temps and the turbo's efficiency at X psi of boost, which effects air temps.
If we were limited to internal compression temps being the limiting factor, then wouldn't we all be limited to X WHP? There are many factors in knowing where that PSI limit is, and obviously I am not going to be the one who finds where that limit is
11-14-13, 12:42 AM
#1711
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I "heard" the drag guys in PR push 60psi through their rotor motors
ok ok they are using methanol but still, I would say that is more than enough boost for anyone.
Manny, best of look with getting your car running properly. I think the EFR with internal gate will work.it also makes the manifold design easier with no worries about WG positioning, although you have cut those cool WG dumps in your hood already.
The long runner manifold will help cancel the reversion pulse, which should reduce cross port contamination. My engine guy has made the manifold on their drag car long for this reason, however they are running side port primaries and a full PP inlet. So they get a lot of overlap
ok ok they are using methanol but still, I would say that is more than enough boost for anyone.Manny, best of look with getting your car running properly. I think the EFR with internal gate will work.it also makes the manifold design easier with no worries about WG positioning, although you have cut those cool WG dumps in your hood already.
The long runner manifold will help cancel the reversion pulse, which should reduce cross port contamination. My engine guy has made the manifold on their drag car long for this reason, however they are running side port primaries and a full PP inlet. So they get a lot of overlap
11-14-13, 01:49 AM
#1712
Make an assessment...
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It's a definite possibility....I'm pretty much sold on them now that they're available I remember you telling me about yours....looking forward to feeling the difference..although hopefully this time I'll be over 300whp and on a healthy tune Hard to compare and contrast turbo characteristics when you've never had a healthy comparison hah. <---its actually very sad...
I remember you telling me about yours....looking forward to feeling the difference..although hopefully this time I'll be over 300whp and on a healthy tune Hard to compare and contrast turbo characteristics when you've never had a healthy comparison hah. <---its actually very sad...I can't even imagine how much it sucks that you're going on your fourth engine in such a short time, but the fact that you're still plugging away and not letting it beat you says a lot about you man. You're stronger than I would be. The car would be burnt to a crisp by now lol. Or rather, the tuners would be in unmarked graves LOL.
11-14-13, 07:23 AM
#1715
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Many: there is no real problem in revving with normal seals. even thou im only driving my car on the street and drag racing it i pull it to 9700rpm. and it is balanced with 2mm RA seals. im have never felt safe with the ceramic seals.
11-14-13, 10:26 AM
#1716
So based on that article you decided to make your manifold a long runner manifold?
As you said... that is the jist of it.
What the article does not mention about exhaust reversion is, that it is generally only a problem at low RPM. (you have a relatively late opening intake port relatively speaking) I highly doubt that at 4kRPM and above reversion is a problem as the intake and exhaust velocities are high. Due to the high velocities the air carries more momentum and it is much harder for it to change direction (ie go back into the rotor chamber). All things that "article" does not mention.
Also, just reading that article it mentions divided manifolds
So we won't really have to worry about it according to the article you posted. Which I agree with.
Due to the rotary engine not having an exhaust valve and the exhaust port being peripheral using a short manifold will all the utilization of the powerful exhaust pulse that happens when the exhaust port opens. Making the manifold long diminishes the pulse strength reducing response.
Personally as you know, I think you should make a short manifold. Especially since you will be making another one anyway.
As you said... that is the jist of it.
What the article does not mention about exhaust reversion is, that it is generally only a problem at low RPM. (you have a relatively late opening intake port relatively speaking) I highly doubt that at 4kRPM and above reversion is a problem as the intake and exhaust velocities are high. Due to the high velocities the air carries more momentum and it is much harder for it to change direction (ie go back into the rotor chamber). All things that "article" does not mention.
Also, just reading that article it mentions divided manifolds
So we won't really have to worry about it according to the article you posted. Which I agree with.
Due to the rotary engine not having an exhaust valve and the exhaust port being peripheral using a short manifold will all the utilization of the powerful exhaust pulse that happens when the exhaust port opens. Making the manifold long diminishes the pulse strength reducing response.
Personally as you know, I think you should make a short manifold. Especially since you will be making another one anyway.
The main reason I went and will still go with a long runner manifold is 1) because I talked to a guy named Jack who runs one, and he convinced me. And after looking at his dyno graph and seeing good numbers AND talking to the makers of his manifold themselves...and them telling me why they chose to go with a logn runner.. I knew It would be a cool project to take on. And 2) To be Different. Short manifolds are cool and they work for a lot of people. I already know that.. so why not do something a little different that will work too? If I wanted to build a car like everyone else I would've just bought one already done. This isn't a cookie cutter car with a bunch of off the shelf bolt on modifications. I'm ok with that and I really like that aspect of the build.
I'll be sticking with a long runner manifold because I like them and I know it'll work just fine
Heres a youtube video of Jacks Long runner dyno :
Last edited by mannykiller; 11-14-13 at 10:40 AM.
11-14-13, 10:39 AM
#1717
also, because you guys asked for my two cents (maybe not), here's what i'd do:
1. get your rebuilt engine back in the car, taking your time, making sure to not pinch any wires
2. you've already dumped stupid money into this car. don't blow more money on an EFR turbo and new manifold. do the CHRA core exchange program with your GTX35 core via turblown and have him install your GTX compressor wheel on it and you have a badass NEW garrett GTX turbo for like $700
3. get a competent tuner to tune your car for 12psi on 91 octane
4. make 375whp on low boost and gasoline, and enjoy the car
(optional: sell adaptronic and get a haltech ps1k. you should check out the haltech software on youtube and compare it to the adaptronic)
1. get your rebuilt engine back in the car, taking your time, making sure to not pinch any wires
2. you've already dumped stupid money into this car. don't blow more money on an EFR turbo and new manifold. do the CHRA core exchange program with your GTX35 core via turblown and have him install your GTX compressor wheel on it and you have a badass NEW garrett GTX turbo for like $700
3. get a competent tuner to tune your car for 12psi on 91 octane
4. make 375whp on low boost and gasoline, and enjoy the car
(optional: sell adaptronic and get a haltech ps1k. you should check out the haltech software on youtube and compare it to the adaptronic)
2) Your right on the stupid money....but if I abandon my evolving vision of the car...I'll consider myself a sellout and a wuss.. It's not 100% that i'll be selling this manifold... I may just modify it =-). I really would like to run more capable turbo and if it helps lower stress on the motor at X psi compared to the previous gtx..then it's worth it to me.
3) I have a competent tuner, but i'll be running no more than 16lbs on 91 with a/I. I'll most likely be running race gas or e85 as A distributor just opened up closer to where I live..which means I can run 20+ psi
(Optional).....NOT A CHANCE haha.....I know your partial to haltech but I really do Love my Adaptronic. I've had no problems with it and I know the motor failures have nothing to do with it. All the instrumentation was there....just lack of professionalism and my decisions not to follow my gut killed these motors. If I were to upgrade my ecu i'd simply move to the Adaptronic 1280
But there is really no need.I "heard" the drag guys in PR push 60psi through their rotor motors ok ok they are using methanol but still, I would say that is more than enough boost for anyone.
Manny, best of look with getting your car running properly. I think the EFR with internal gate will work.it also makes the manifold design easier with no worries about WG positioning, although you have cut those cool WG dumps in your hood already.
The long runner manifold will help cancel the reversion pulse, which should reduce cross port contamination. My engine guy has made the manifold on their drag car long for this reason, however they are running side port primaries and a full PP inlet. So they get a lot of overlap
ok ok they are using methanol but still, I would say that is more than enough boost for anyone.Manny, best of look with getting your car running properly. I think the EFR with internal gate will work.it also makes the manifold design easier with no worries about WG positioning, although you have cut those cool WG dumps in your hood already.
The long runner manifold will help cancel the reversion pulse, which should reduce cross port contamination. My engine guy has made the manifold on their drag car long for this reason, however they are running side port primaries and a full PP inlet. So they get a lot of overlap
You won't be disappointed lol. I went with two external 38mm gates because 1. I was worried the internal wouldn't be able to handle it, and 2. because with my short runners, I don't think the extra girth of the internal gate model would fit between the LIM and firewall. However, if Aaron stays with long runners he won't have to worry about that I don't think.
You and me both.
Sweet! Well I think with your long runners and 8374 and my short runners and 7670, there would be quite a difference, but I have been thinking of stepping up to the 8374 next time just to see what the difference would be between that and my current one. I'd be interested to see how it responds on your setup. I wish I'd have made it to SS this year so you could take a ride with me and see for yourself.
I can't even imagine how much it sucks that you're going on your fourth engine in such a short time, but the fact that you're still plugging away and not letting it beat you says a lot about you man. You're stronger than I would be. The car would be burnt to a crisp by now lol. Or rather, the tuners would be in unmarked graves LOL.
You and me both.
Sweet! Well I think with your long runners and 8374 and my short runners and 7670, there would be quite a difference, but I have been thinking of stepping up to the 8374 next time just to see what the difference would be between that and my current one. I'd be interested to see how it responds on your setup. I wish I'd have made it to SS this year so you could take a ride with me and see for yourself.
I can't even imagine how much it sucks that you're going on your fourth engine in such a short time, but the fact that you're still plugging away and not letting it beat you says a lot about you man. You're stronger than I would be. The car would be burnt to a crisp by now lol. Or rather, the tuners would be in unmarked graves LOL.
I am worried about space a little though......we'll see when it gets here.
11-14-13, 11:34 AM
#1718
Wastegate John
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Do you have any idea at what RPM exhaust reversion ceases on a rotary?
My opinion is that it ceases to be a problem before 4000RPM. The reason for this is that when thinking about a bridgeport rotary and how it idles.. You can tell when the exhaust is evacuated efficiently from the engine as the engine smooths out and looses the brap brap noise that it makes. On those engines it is lower than 4000 RPM. So for a street ported motor that RPM limit would be even lower as there is much less overlap of the intake and exhaust ports. The 4000RPM number is somewhat arbitrary and is the upper limit of what I think the figure would be. 4000 RPM is lower than the operating RPMs of a car on a track. However, I am definitely open to hearing what you think about it.
The same thing goes for divided exhaust turbine housings...why bother if it's only advantageous during low rpm? but doesn't matter during high revs?
Well simply spool up characteristics is why. Sooner is better. That's what i'd like. But at the same time I'm trying to balance things out so power doesn't drop off too much in the mid/high to high end. I'm looking for a "robust" as possible power-band. Have you ever driven an fd with a long runner turbo manifold? I assure you that response is the last thing on your mind. In revs....especially on the track ....power is there. This lack of "Response" you always talk about is actually much more of a damper that actually helps knock out some of the harsh transition of power on and off the throttle.
There is a direct contradiction in this paragraph. You are building something for the fastest spool possible and then say it is no good on track
I have been on track, I want response. I want my turbo to spool as fast as possible. It is not a hindrance on track. Your right foot smoothes out the harsh transition, not the turbo manifold. That is just a lack of experience.
Have you ever been on track?
Even when this car was at 300whp and 270 Tq at hardly 11 lbs the power delivery was awesome. The power-band was excellent and I was happy.
Great
. the important thing is you are happy with the results.The main reason I went and will still go with a long runner manifold is 1) because I talked to a guy named Jack who runs one, and he convinced me. And after looking at his dyno graph and seeing good numbers AND talking to the makers of his manifold themselves...and them telling me why they chose to go with a logn runner.. I knew It would be a cool project to take on. And 2) To be Different. Short manifolds are cool and they work for a lot of people.
I already know that.. so why not do something a little different that will work too? If I wanted to build a car like everyone else I would've just bought one already done. This isn't a cookie cutter car with a bunch of off the shelf bolt on modifications. I'm ok with that and I really like that aspect of the build.
I'll be sticking with a long runner manifold because I like them and I know it'll work just fine
I'll be sticking with a long runner manifold because I like them and I know it'll work just fine
I am interested in your results and look forward to this project moving on.
11-14-13, 12:17 PM
#1719
Do you have any idea at what RPM exhaust reversion ceases on a rotary?
My opinion is that it ceases to be a problem before 4000RPM. The reason for this is that when thinking about a bridgeport rotary and how it idles.. You can tell when the exhaust is evacuated efficiently from the engine as the engine smooths out and looses the brap brap noise that it makes. On those engines it is lower than 4000 RPM. So for a street ported motor that RPM limit would be even lower as there is much less overlap of the intake and exhaust ports. The 4000RPM number is somewhat arbitrary and is the upper limit of what I think the figure would be. 4000 RPM is lower than the operating RPMs of a car on a track. However, I am definitely open to hearing what you think about it.
I would agree that reversion would take place lower in the power band. 4K? I would say that sounds about right but I wouldn't know precisely. But I do know that a lot of times out on the track specifically in drift...shifting to a lower gear based off speed will put you lower in the rpm band ......as low as 2800-4200 RPM....
Divided turbines and manifolds are ALWAYS better, at any RPM. I did not say that high RPM the divided manifold does not make a difference.
That's actually false from the research I've done. I've talked to many turbo distributors and they all seem to say that Open Volute turbo's have better top ends than a lot of divided counterparts.
There is a direct contradiction in this paragraph. You are building something for the fastest spool possible and then say it is no good on track
I don't see where there's a contradiction at all.....I did say "Balance" but I'm not understanding where the contradiction is.
I have been on track, I want response. I want my turbo to spool as fast as possible. It is not a hindrance on track. Your right foot smoothes out the harsh transition, not the turbo manifold. That is just a lack of experience.
Have you ever been on track?
That's also wrong john. You build a car to best suite your needs on track. If that were the case then why don't you see drag cars out on the circuit course? or a funny car on a drift track? Why do a lot of track guys prefere N/A cars to turbo cars? Because the powerband is predictable and stable. If you see a guy who loves his powerband out on track......usually he's using a smaller "generally speaking" sized turbo on his car..it comes on quick....and that means 2500-3k Tops and holds power to redline. Almost N/A power type powerbands. Having a large turbo on a track car makes driving it a total pain in the ***. Have I been out on track? Yes, More than a lot of guys? probly not. But We also have a TON of canyons out here and I can tell you that smooth power delivery can make driving a car MUCH easier. Controlling the gas pedal is only going to get you so far. Why do a lot of high end track cars have traction control built into their ecu's? When they come out of a corner at say 65-70 mph....they want to be able to push the pedal to the floor and NOT spin out. With "On/Off" power delivery... you will have a much harder time controlling traction than with a smoother power band. Ask anyone. Fritts Flynn..G-racer...Fris from lucky 7 racing....any of these track guys will tell you the same.
Great. the important thing is you are happy with the results.
Agree
Can you explain what that person said and why they chose to do a long manifold?
As stated before....he said that he would not go back because of the smooth power delivery out on track. He said the car was a blast to drive and he couldn't imagine changing one thing in the set up.
I am interested in your results and look forward to this project moving on.
My opinion is that it ceases to be a problem before 4000RPM. The reason for this is that when thinking about a bridgeport rotary and how it idles.. You can tell when the exhaust is evacuated efficiently from the engine as the engine smooths out and looses the brap brap noise that it makes. On those engines it is lower than 4000 RPM. So for a street ported motor that RPM limit would be even lower as there is much less overlap of the intake and exhaust ports. The 4000RPM number is somewhat arbitrary and is the upper limit of what I think the figure would be. 4000 RPM is lower than the operating RPMs of a car on a track. However, I am definitely open to hearing what you think about it.
I would agree that reversion would take place lower in the power band. 4K? I would say that sounds about right but I wouldn't know precisely. But I do know that a lot of times out on the track specifically in drift...shifting to a lower gear based off speed will put you lower in the rpm band ......as low as 2800-4200 RPM....
Divided turbines and manifolds are ALWAYS better, at any RPM. I did not say that high RPM the divided manifold does not make a difference.
That's actually false from the research I've done. I've talked to many turbo distributors and they all seem to say that Open Volute turbo's have better top ends than a lot of divided counterparts.
There is a direct contradiction in this paragraph. You are building something for the fastest spool possible and then say it is no good on track
I don't see where there's a contradiction at all.....I did say "Balance" but I'm not understanding where the contradiction is.
I have been on track, I want response. I want my turbo to spool as fast as possible. It is not a hindrance on track. Your right foot smoothes out the harsh transition, not the turbo manifold. That is just a lack of experience.
Have you ever been on track?
That's also wrong john. You build a car to best suite your needs on track. If that were the case then why don't you see drag cars out on the circuit course? or a funny car on a drift track? Why do a lot of track guys prefere N/A cars to turbo cars? Because the powerband is predictable and stable. If you see a guy who loves his powerband out on track......usually he's using a smaller "generally speaking" sized turbo on his car..it comes on quick....and that means 2500-3k Tops and holds power to redline. Almost N/A power type powerbands. Having a large turbo on a track car makes driving it a total pain in the ***. Have I been out on track? Yes, More than a lot of guys? probly not. But We also have a TON of canyons out here and I can tell you that smooth power delivery can make driving a car MUCH easier. Controlling the gas pedal is only going to get you so far. Why do a lot of high end track cars have traction control built into their ecu's? When they come out of a corner at say 65-70 mph....they want to be able to push the pedal to the floor and NOT spin out. With "On/Off" power delivery... you will have a much harder time controlling traction than with a smoother power band. Ask anyone. Fritts Flynn..G-racer...Fris from lucky 7 racing....any of these track guys will tell you the same.
Great
. the important thing is you are happy with the results.Agree
Can you explain what that person said and why they chose to do a long manifold?
As stated before....he said that he would not go back because of the smooth power delivery out on track. He said the car was a blast to drive and he couldn't imagine changing one thing in the set up.
I am interested in your results and look forward to this project moving on.
I'm very excited to get going.
11-14-13, 12:47 PM
#1720
Can we take a step back for a second here. What exactly are you trying to achieve with your long runner manifold?
Renesisfd:
I have been on track, I want response. I want my turbo to spool as fast as possible. It is not a hindrance on track. Your right foot smoothes out the harsh transition, not the turbo manifold. That is just a lack of experience.
Have you ever been on track?
Mannykiller:
That's also wrong john. You build a car to best suite your needs on track. If that were the case then why don't you see drag cars out on the circuit course? or a funny car on a drift track? Why do a lot of track guys prefere N/A cars to turbo cars? Because the powerband is predictable and stable. If you see a guy who loves his powerband out on track......usually he's using a smaller "generally speaking" sized turbo on his car..it comes on quick....and that means 2500-3k Tops and holds power to redline. Almost N/A power type powerbands. Having a large turbo on a track car makes driving it a total pain in the ***. Have I been out on track? Yes, More than a lot of guys? probly not. But We also have a TON of canyons out here and I can tell you that smooth power delivery can make driving a car MUCH easier. Controlling the gas pedal is only going to get you so far. Why do a lot of high end track cars have traction control built into their ecu's? When they come out of a corner at say 65-70 mph....they want to be able to push the pedal to the floor and NOT spin out. With "On/Off" power delivery... you will have a much harder time controlling traction than with a smoother power band. Ask anyone. Fritts Flynn..G-racer...Fris from lucky 7 racing....any of these track guys will tell you the same.
John was talking about desiring response, you responded to him telling him he is wrong and proceed to say response is good....
It is pretty well known that if you want response then a short runner divided manifold gives you that. you can get away with running a slightly larger turbo and still have good response. Now, sure you can build a long runner manifold and stick a small turbo onto it and get good response as well. IMO the biggest concern for a track car is exhaust back pressure. Higher exhaust back pressure equates to higher EGT's and higher temps overall which is something you dont want. Larger turbos reduce this back pressure significantly. The idea is to run as large of a hot side as possible while still maintaining your power and response goals. A short runner, divided, twin wastegate manifold achieves this time and time again. I assume you are trying to achieve the same result with the long runner design?
The real question is what are you building this car for? That should dictate what your overall design goals would be. Like you mentioned, you cant have the best drag car and have it be the best road race car at the same time. It sounds to me like you are simply building this car for yourself because you just want to do something different and make something that looks badass. There is nothing wrong with that. However it seems like you may be making design decisions based on information that may have been taken out of context.
Either way, like John I am genuinely interested in seeing this car finally be back on the road where it deserves to be. You have been through a lot and are sticking true to the rotary passion. We all can agree you deserve props for that
P.S. I also like the idea of EFR with internal wastegate. If your goal is a track car, then the best thing you can do is to keep it simple.
Renesisfd:
I have been on track, I want response. I want my turbo to spool as fast as possible. It is not a hindrance on track. Your right foot smoothes out the harsh transition, not the turbo manifold. That is just a lack of experience.
Have you ever been on track?
Mannykiller:
That's also wrong john. You build a car to best suite your needs on track. If that were the case then why don't you see drag cars out on the circuit course? or a funny car on a drift track? Why do a lot of track guys prefere N/A cars to turbo cars? Because the powerband is predictable and stable. If you see a guy who loves his powerband out on track......usually he's using a smaller "generally speaking" sized turbo on his car..it comes on quick....and that means 2500-3k Tops and holds power to redline. Almost N/A power type powerbands. Having a large turbo on a track car makes driving it a total pain in the ***. Have I been out on track? Yes, More than a lot of guys? probly not. But We also have a TON of canyons out here and I can tell you that smooth power delivery can make driving a car MUCH easier. Controlling the gas pedal is only going to get you so far. Why do a lot of high end track cars have traction control built into their ecu's? When they come out of a corner at say 65-70 mph....they want to be able to push the pedal to the floor and NOT spin out. With "On/Off" power delivery... you will have a much harder time controlling traction than with a smoother power band. Ask anyone. Fritts Flynn..G-racer...Fris from lucky 7 racing....any of these track guys will tell you the same.
John was talking about desiring response, you responded to him telling him he is wrong and proceed to say response is good....
It is pretty well known that if you want response then a short runner divided manifold gives you that. you can get away with running a slightly larger turbo and still have good response. Now, sure you can build a long runner manifold and stick a small turbo onto it and get good response as well. IMO the biggest concern for a track car is exhaust back pressure. Higher exhaust back pressure equates to higher EGT's and higher temps overall which is something you dont want. Larger turbos reduce this back pressure significantly. The idea is to run as large of a hot side as possible while still maintaining your power and response goals. A short runner, divided, twin wastegate manifold achieves this time and time again. I assume you are trying to achieve the same result with the long runner design?
The real question is what are you building this car for? That should dictate what your overall design goals would be. Like you mentioned, you cant have the best drag car and have it be the best road race car at the same time. It sounds to me like you are simply building this car for yourself because you just want to do something different and make something that looks badass. There is nothing wrong with that. However it seems like you may be making design decisions based on information that may have been taken out of context.
Either way, like John I am genuinely interested in seeing this car finally be back on the road where it deserves to be. You have been through a lot and are sticking true to the rotary passion. We all can agree you deserve props for that
P.S. I also like the idea of EFR with internal wastegate. If your goal is a track car, then the best thing you can do is to keep it simple.
11-14-13, 01:14 PM
#1721
Agree
1) ***** already rolling on the rebuild
2) Your right on the stupid money....but if I abandon my evolving vision of the car...I'll consider myself a sellout and a wuss.. It's not 100% that i'll be selling this manifold... I may just modify it =-). I really would like to run more capable turbo and if it helps lower stress on the motor at X psi compared to the previous gtx..then it's worth it to me.
3) I have a competent tuner, but i'll be running no more than 16lbs on 91 with a/I. I'll most likely be running race gas or e85 as A distributor just opened up closer to where I live..which means I can run 20+ psi
(Optional).....NOT A CHANCE haha.....I know your partial to haltech but I really do Love my Adaptronic. I've had no problems with it and I know the motor failures have nothing to do with it. All the instrumentation was there....just lack of professionalism and my decisions not to follow my gut killed these motors. If I were to upgrade my ecu i'd simply move to the Adaptronic 1280 But there is really no need.
1) ***** already rolling on the rebuild
2) Your right on the stupid money....but if I abandon my evolving vision of the car...I'll consider myself a sellout and a wuss.. It's not 100% that i'll be selling this manifold... I may just modify it =-). I really would like to run more capable turbo and if it helps lower stress on the motor at X psi compared to the previous gtx..then it's worth it to me.
3) I have a competent tuner, but i'll be running no more than 16lbs on 91 with a/I. I'll most likely be running race gas or e85 as A distributor just opened up closer to where I live..which means I can run 20+ psi
(Optional).....NOT A CHANCE haha.....I know your partial to haltech but I really do Love my Adaptronic. I've had no problems with it and I know the motor failures have nothing to do with it. All the instrumentation was there....just lack of professionalism and my decisions not to follow my gut killed these motors. If I were to upgrade my ecu i'd simply move to the Adaptronic 1280
But there is really no need.hasn't your boy howard coleman (the former biggest proponent of AI on the planet, next to BDC) switched to E85 now in lieu of AI ?
i wish you luck with the adaptronic. i'm sure andy appreciates your support.
anyway, that is my $.04. i wish you luck in your endeavors, sir!
11-14-13, 07:15 PM
#1724
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
Just wanted to stop in and say a few things:
(1) Water/Meth or AI or whatever you want to call it is absolutely a great addition to any single turbo FD with zero drawbacks in my extensive experience with it.
(2) Always remember the Keep It Simple Stupid principle. At this stage in the game, those who persevere to reinvent the wheel simply for the sake of reinventing it are in for a long journey.
(3) Best of luck to you Manny, and keep up the passion for the rotary my friend
That is all
(1) Water/Meth or AI or whatever you want to call it is absolutely a great addition to any single turbo FD with zero drawbacks in my extensive experience with it.
(2) Always remember the Keep It Simple Stupid principle. At this stage in the game, those who persevere to reinvent the wheel simply for the sake of reinventing it are in for a long journey.
(3) Best of luck to you Manny, and keep up the passion for the rotary my friend
That is all
11-16-13, 12:15 AM
#1725
F'n Newbie...
iTrader: (6)
Update Continued: "The Nature of the beast"
And Yea..some of you guys may know... doesn't sound good eh? Well it wasn't. The car was running on one rotor on Decel off that run....and my tunning session was over. I got the car home... did a quick compression check although I already knew...and it showed 0. Needle didn't even move =nice. Didn't even bother checking front housing compression. Closed the hood and went to dinner with my lovely girlfriend to get my mind off my expensive as **** piece of garbage. Woke up the next morning and decided to pull her to see the extent of the damage. got the turbo manifold off and looked into the ports.....yea... Half of one of my 1 piece 3mm Ceramic seals was sharded off.. scatter blasted all through my New rotor faces... Got pissed off...closed the hood and went and hung out with my girlfriend again to calm my *** down. Finally got motivation that night to check my gtx3582R...which had 2 dyno sessions on it and about 450 miles total on it... and... YAY:
Shaft play every which way and.......
And Yea..some of you guys may know... doesn't sound good eh? Well it wasn't. The car was running on one rotor on Decel off that run....and my tunning session was over. I got the car home... did a quick compression check although I already knew...and it showed 0. Needle didn't even move =nice. Didn't even bother checking front housing compression. Closed the hood and went to dinner with my lovely girlfriend to get my mind off my expensive as **** piece of garbage. Woke up the next morning and decided to pull her to see the extent of the damage. got the turbo manifold off and looked into the ports.....yea... Half of one of my 1 piece 3mm Ceramic seals was sharded off.. scatter blasted all through my New rotor faces... Got pissed off...closed the hood and went and hung out with my girlfriend again to calm my *** down. Finally got motivation that night to check my gtx3582R...which had 2 dyno sessions on it and about 450 miles total on it... and... YAY:
Shaft play every which way and.......
Sorry to hear about your motor man. Losing an engine that you've put so much time and effort into, so early in it's "life", really really sucks. I was in the same situation directly after DGRR this past spring, so I know your pain. I hope your next one survives longer!!!