Kilo Racing 3 Rotor FD Conversion
#77
Rotor DEMON !
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iam pretty sure david can go take the car and get it dynoed to show werhe it makes the power and how much.
side note: no package yet david
joel
side note: no package yet david
joel
#79
Super Snuggles
Originally posted by SPOautos
the 20b has 50% more chanber and gets 50% more air and fuel so it should make close to 50% more power.
the 20b has 50% more chanber and gets 50% more air and fuel so it should make close to 50% more power.
Of course an engine that can burn more air and fuel is going to make more power. No one's debating that. However, the difference in power cannot be solely determined based on the difference in displacement because there are far too many other variables to consider. Bottom line, power potential and displacement do not share a linear relationship, at least not without making a significant number changes which negate a fair comparison with the original configuration.
#80
Super Snuggles
Originally posted by bigmack000
iam pretty sure david can go take the car and get it dynoed to show werhe it makes the power and how much.
iam pretty sure david can go take the car and get it dynoed to show werhe it makes the power and how much.
#81
DRIVE THE ROTARY SPORTS
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Originally posted by SPOautos
Ohhh yea, I believe Bryan at BNR he told me the stock 20b compressor wheels are actually smaller than the 13b wheels. I believe the ones Pettit uses are actually upgraded and adapted to work with the 20b manifold.....might be wrong though its been a long time since we talked about it.
Ohhh yea, I believe Bryan at BNR he told me the stock 20b compressor wheels are actually smaller than the 13b wheels. I believe the ones Pettit uses are actually upgraded and adapted to work with the 20b manifold.....might be wrong though its been a long time since we talked about it.
#82
DRIVE THE ROTARY SPORTS
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Originally posted by jimlab
Obviously, and independent results are what I'm interested in, not what "Cam says" or what someone else thinks a 20B will make at X psi. I'd also like to know what the car weighs when finished and what the distribution is.
Obviously, and independent results are what I'm interested in, not what "Cam says" or what someone else thinks a 20B will make at X psi. I'd also like to know what the car weighs when finished and what the distribution is.
#83
Super Snuggles
Originally posted by RotorMotor
jim, ill let you in on a little secret that im sure you already know... your car will be better balanced than any 20b powered FD. these motors are PIGS
jim, ill let you in on a little secret that im sure you already know... your car will be better balanced than any 20b powered FD. these motors are PIGS
#85
Super Snuggles
Originally posted by RotorMotor
OH MY GOD!!! my jaw just dropped open.... im still in shock... jimlab with a 20b next to his car!!!!!! now ive seen it all
OH MY GOD!!! my jaw just dropped open.... im still in shock... jimlab with a 20b next to his car!!!!!! now ive seen it all
#86
Cam exaggerates his claims plain and simple. He's a salesman. But he's also a first rate craftsman when it comes to his three rotor setups. No, I wouldn't do them exactly the same way (as if I'm qualified!) but he has great attention to detail and you get a car that actually works well. It's not just thrown together. Just don't expect huge hp numbers out of his setup. His ports are very, very mild for the most part. But the reworked Hitachi's (upgraded compressor wheels) make the car very driveable. Even if you're "only" making slightly above 400rwhp at 13psi, there's lots more torque and flexibility on hand over a two rotor setup. It'll be a fun car to drive regardless. I'm sure you will enjoy it!
I'd be most interested in long term updates with the car and how it functions over that time in a real world basis down here in the steamy heat of Florida's brutal summers.
I'd be most interested in long term updates with the car and how it functions over that time in a real world basis down here in the steamy heat of Florida's brutal summers.
#87
Thanks everyone for the opinions and thoughts. You are all correct. The bottom line will be determined at the dyno and I'm more than happy to post the results for you.
RX7tt95 is also correct that Cam is a first rate craftsman and has a high attention to detail. Cam first and foremost is concerned with reliability and drivability. Horesepower comes second. I know this all to well from many discussions with Cam and having him fix the crappy work that was done on my car here in Jacksonville.
I went to Cam, although he is pricey, for these reasons and am confident that I'll get good results. I also will post long-term updates (yes, Florida is brutally hot in the summer).
FYI - just place an order for Forgeline WC3s 18X9 (front) and 18X12.5 (back). I haven't heard back from RO_JA as to if they can custom make a set of Formula 5 serises wheels for the back. So, although I love the wheels, I'm taking them off and replacing them. Guess I'll sell them on the forum or ebay them.
RX7tt95 is also correct that Cam is a first rate craftsman and has a high attention to detail. Cam first and foremost is concerned with reliability and drivability. Horesepower comes second. I know this all to well from many discussions with Cam and having him fix the crappy work that was done on my car here in Jacksonville.
I went to Cam, although he is pricey, for these reasons and am confident that I'll get good results. I also will post long-term updates (yes, Florida is brutally hot in the summer).
FYI - just place an order for Forgeline WC3s 18X9 (front) and 18X12.5 (back). I haven't heard back from RO_JA as to if they can custom make a set of Formula 5 serises wheels for the back. So, although I love the wheels, I'm taking them off and replacing them. Guess I'll sell them on the forum or ebay them.
#88
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Originally posted by jimlab
Frictional losses increase as power increases, otherwise drivetrain losses would be a fixed value regardless of power level instead of a percentage which approximates the delta. For that reason alone, a 20B would not make precisely 50% more power than a 13B, even if the turbos, ports, intercooler, intake, and exhaust were identical and exactly 50% more air and fuel were added.
Frictional losses increase as power increases, otherwise drivetrain losses would be a fixed value regardless of power level instead of a percentage which approximates the delta. For that reason alone, a 20B would not make precisely 50% more power than a 13B, even if the turbos, ports, intercooler, intake, and exhaust were identical and exactly 50% more air and fuel were added.
#90
Super Snuggles
Originally posted by paw140
Now you're just being ****. I'm sure Stephen was *estimating* when he threw out the 50% increase in power. But when it all comes down to it, 50% more air + 50% more fuel should more-or-less equal 50% more power.
Now you're just being ****. I'm sure Stephen was *estimating* when he threw out the 50% increase in power. But when it all comes down to it, 50% more air + 50% more fuel should more-or-less equal 50% more power.
A 350 CID Corvette LT1 makes 300 horsepower NA on pump gas. My 396 CID LT1 only has 13% more displacement, but makes 100%+ more horsepower, also NA, also on pump gas. Is the difference in power based solely on displacement, or is it based on significant changes to the configuration and rpm range? You absolutely CANNOT base power estimates solely on the difference in displacement. How many times do I have to repeat this before it sinks in??
Significant changes in configuration would be required to make a 20B produce 50% more horsepower than a 13B-REW, any of which negate the original comparison unless they're applied to the 13B-REW also. You can't just stack the deck to skew the results until they meet your approval. How would comparing a modified 20B to a stock 13B-REW be even remotely fair?
Of COURSE you can make 50% more power than a 13B-REW after upgrading everything on the 20B, but the difference in power is no longer based on the difference in displacement, it's based on all the modifications you made. With identical configurations, a 20B will NOT make 50% more horsepower than the 13B just because it has 50% more displacement. Period. End of discussion.
These are the ONLY assumptions you can make based solely on an increase in displacement...
1. The bigger engine will have greater power potential overall
2. The bigger engine won't have to work as hard to produce the same power level, providing a greater margin of safety
3. The bigger engine will have increased low end power because it can consume more air at lower rpm
I'm talking about flywheel power, not rwhp.
#93
Super Snuggles
Originally posted by yzf-r1
it's pretty easy to "spark" good ol Jim into a debate
it's pretty easy to "spark" good ol Jim into a debate
Originally posted by David Hayes
As for how long the car will be at Pettit, I'm told 90 days or so.
As for how long the car will be at Pettit, I'm told 90 days or so.
#94
A Fistfull of Dollars!
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Originally posted by jimlab
These are the ONLY assumptions you can make based solely on an increase in displacement...
1. The bigger engine will have greater power potential overall
2. The bigger engine won't have to work as hard to produce the same power level, providing a greater margin of safety
3. The bigger engine will have increased low end power because it can consume more air at lower rpm
These are the ONLY assumptions you can make based solely on an increase in displacement...
1. The bigger engine will have greater power potential overall
2. The bigger engine won't have to work as hard to produce the same power level, providing a greater margin of safety
3. The bigger engine will have increased low end power because it can consume more air at lower rpm
4. The bigger engine will weight more.
5. The bigger engine will be more difficult to squeeze into an already tight engine compartment.
6. The bigger engine will more than likely cost more.
7. The bigger engine will give you true bragging rights... "mine is bigger than yours".
8. The bigger engine will cause debate after debate on what the true advantage of actually having a bigger engine.
Ok, I'm done now
Last edited by HDP; 07-14-04 at 12:48 PM.
#95
Super Snuggles
Originally posted by HDP
4. The bigger engine will weigh more.
4. The bigger engine will weigh more.
Unfortunately, you can't bore and stroke a rotary, so an increase in displacement is absolutely accompanied by an increase in weight and package size. The Motown 454, on the other hand, is no bigger physically than a mundane 305.
5. The bigger engine will be more difficult to squeeze into an already tight engine compartment.
6. The bigger engine will more than likely cost more.
A 350 CID SBC is infinitely cheaper than a 120 CID 20B, and you could easily surpass the 20B in horsepower for less money. Aftermarket plays a big role in how expensive a given platform is to modify and maintain.
7. The bigger engine will give you true bragging rights... "mine is bigger than yours".
8. The bigger engine will cause debate after debate on what the true advantage of actually having a bigger engine.
Power potential. A 454 with 10 pounds of boost ownz jo0!!1!
Last edited by jimlab; 07-14-04 at 01:27 PM.
#97
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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Drivability. Increasing displacement broadens the power band, improving low end power and reducing the tendency to have a very peaky power band
this is the key issue....ask any roadracer
and it's why Porsche's kick FD butt at the track, even if the peak hp is the same or maybe even a little better with a "bad ***" T-78 or whatever
it's also why these dyno queen Supras with 180 hp below 3800 rpm absolutely suck at the track
this is the key issue....ask any roadracer
and it's why Porsche's kick FD butt at the track, even if the peak hp is the same or maybe even a little better with a "bad ***" T-78 or whatever
it's also why these dyno queen Supras with 180 hp below 3800 rpm absolutely suck at the track
#98
Hey, where did my $$$ go?
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Actually, I didn't say exactly 50%, I said ABOUT 50%, sure there are some losses here and there but they are minimal.
IF EVERYTHING is equal and you put the same amout of air and fuel in each chamber of the 13b then the same out of air and fuel in each chamber of the 20B your going to be combusting 50% more air and fuel and its going to make about 50% more power minus some small amout of increased ratio of frictional losses. The set up and tuning of a stock 13b and a stock 20B arent the same so thats not a good comparison. I still think if you run the same duty cycle on your injectors in every case every chamber is getting the same fuel and air you are going to make approx 50% more power since your consuming 50% more fuel and air.
You come up with a good reason as to why consuming 50% more air and fuel doesnt create about 50% more power and I'll listen. Matter of fact I would like to listen....I'm always ready to learn
BTW - I'd imagine if you kept EVERYTHING the same on your LT1 and left it all stock and just stroked it out it would prob only increase power around 13%. Your new engine is running higher compression, better VE with better heads, better exhaust, better manifolds, better cam selection ect ect ect. If you kept the VE and tuning (a/f ratio) the same in both applications and just increases size I bet it would be very close to 13% increase.
STEPHEN
IF EVERYTHING is equal and you put the same amout of air and fuel in each chamber of the 13b then the same out of air and fuel in each chamber of the 20B your going to be combusting 50% more air and fuel and its going to make about 50% more power minus some small amout of increased ratio of frictional losses. The set up and tuning of a stock 13b and a stock 20B arent the same so thats not a good comparison. I still think if you run the same duty cycle on your injectors in every case every chamber is getting the same fuel and air you are going to make approx 50% more power since your consuming 50% more fuel and air.
You come up with a good reason as to why consuming 50% more air and fuel doesnt create about 50% more power and I'll listen. Matter of fact I would like to listen....I'm always ready to learn
BTW - I'd imagine if you kept EVERYTHING the same on your LT1 and left it all stock and just stroked it out it would prob only increase power around 13%. Your new engine is running higher compression, better VE with better heads, better exhaust, better manifolds, better cam selection ect ect ect. If you kept the VE and tuning (a/f ratio) the same in both applications and just increases size I bet it would be very close to 13% increase.
STEPHEN
Last edited by SPOautos; 07-14-04 at 02:27 PM.
#99
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Originally posted by jimlab
No, I'm being accurate. Stephen pulled 50% out of the air without considering that it's not as simple as multiplying power by the same ratio as the increase in displacement. It doesn't work that way because there are far too many other factors involved.
No, I'm being accurate. Stephen pulled 50% out of the air without considering that it's not as simple as multiplying power by the same ratio as the increase in displacement. It doesn't work that way because there are far too many other factors involved.
A 350 CID Corvette LT1 makes 300 horsepower NA on pump gas. My 396 CID LT1 only has 13% more displacement, but makes 100%+ more horsepower, also NA, also on pump gas. Is the difference in power based solely on displacement, or is it based on significant changes to the configuration and rpm range?
You absolutely CANNOT base power estimates solely on the difference in displacement. How many times do I have to repeat this before it sinks in??
Significant changes in configuration would be required to make a 20B produce 50% more horsepower than a 13B-REW, any of which negate the original comparison unless they're applied to the 13B-REW also. You can't just stack the deck to skew the results until they meet your approval. How would comparing a modified 20B to a stock 13B-REW be even remotely fair?
With identical configurations, a 20B will NOT make 50% more horsepower than the 13B just because it has 50% more displacement. Period. End of discussion.
So are you saying that you don't think frictional losses apply to the engine itself? [/B]
Last edited by paw140; 07-14-04 at 02:59 PM.
#100
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Originally posted by SPOautos
You come up with a good reason as to why consuming 50% more air and fuel doesnt create about 50% more power and I'll listen. Matter of fact I would like to listen....I'm always ready to learn
You come up with a good reason as to why consuming 50% more air and fuel doesnt create about 50% more power and I'll listen. Matter of fact I would like to listen....I'm always ready to learn
Last edited by paw140; 07-14-04 at 03:29 PM.