FD Rebuild from "Down Under" (with pics)
05-21-07, 05:36 PM
#76
Dyno Graph
Here's my dissapointing dyno graph.
Another possible cause I'm thinking of is because I used secondhand housings and new seals in the build, that it might take a while for the seals to conform properly and give me some decent compression numbers. Keeping in mind I have done 400kms since the rebuild, and given the car 1 oil change.
Until I do a compression check though, I won't know.
The car starts perfectly, doesn't need alot of cranking or any pedal to build up compression.....
I'll let you guys know updates as they come to hand.
Another possible cause I'm thinking of is because I used secondhand housings and new seals in the build, that it might take a while for the seals to conform properly and give me some decent compression numbers. Keeping in mind I have done 400kms since the rebuild, and given the car 1 oil change.
Until I do a compression check though, I won't know.
The car starts perfectly, doesn't need alot of cranking or any pedal to build up compression.....
I'll let you guys know updates as they come to hand.
05-21-07, 10:23 PM
#77
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get the beast whil its down! il race you in my 240 for $5k!!! im jp man i hope you figure your motor out im having bugs with my motor too, but its not a rotoray so i couldnt help you too much but to say get a compression tester, not expensive
good luck
good luck
05-22-07, 02:38 AM
#79
hey mate..im from AUS.
have been watching your rebuild with interest.
just noticed that you said you have only done 400kms so far....and u've been to the track?!
from what i know a general rule is to run in a rotary with at least 1000k's...i will be doing up to 1500 before i start boosting it AT ALL...
was a bit suprised to hear that you have done spirited driving already.
not having a go...just stating thats what i've learnt.
have u done the comp test yet???
good luck...
have been watching your rebuild with interest.
just noticed that you said you have only done 400kms so far....and u've been to the track?!
from what i know a general rule is to run in a rotary with at least 1000k's...i will be doing up to 1500 before i start boosting it AT ALL...
was a bit suprised to hear that you have done spirited driving already.
not having a go...just stating thats what i've learnt.
have u done the comp test yet???
good luck...
05-22-07, 06:22 AM
#80
Lots of people dont run their RX7s in at all when they rebuild them, dont worry about it too much.
Yes your right it will take a while for compression to build fully, but shouldnt lose you that much power. From the looks of your dyno graph your only running on one turbo? Do you have a boost gauge? Whats your boost pattern and dare you sure the secondary is coming into play?
Yes your right it will take a while for compression to build fully, but shouldnt lose you that much power. From the looks of your dyno graph your only running on one turbo? Do you have a boost gauge? Whats your boost pattern and dare you sure the secondary is coming into play?
05-22-07, 06:31 AM
#81
ok i just read your other post (sorry it was on the page before!) Yes it sounds like your car could be in limp mode if its boosting 10-8-10.
Disconnect your battery, put your foot on the brake pedal for 10 seconds, reconnect your battery and hopefully your exhaust heat light should go out. Did you make any changes to the cars standard cat? the wiring for the exhaust heat light is under the drivers seat and will illuminate if there is a break in the circuit. This could cause your car to go into limp mode.
255 ish at the flywheel is standard for these cars, but with your mods you should be seeing more than that. maybe 280-290ish at the flywheel. With a PFC youll easily see 300 at the wheels with your porting and no cat. (not sure if you still have one?)
The japanese cars dont have a check engine light, you have to attatch a bulb/LED to two terminals in the diagnosis connector and then bridge another to get the faults off the car. I cant remember how to do this, but i can find out for you. I suggest you do this, and also reset your ECU by disconnecting your battery as i said before.
Also check your compression, but i suspect it should be fine.
If the cars smoking when you first start it up, what colour is the smoke? how much of it is there? What does it smell like? was it cold the night before?
lots of things cause smoke. MY car puffs black and white smoke all the time,but they are generally before or after flames sooo...
It sounds like your cars in limp mode, and if it is then there must be a reason for that. You need to find that reason, itll be an ECU Fault - something electrical somewhere.
Disconnect your battery, put your foot on the brake pedal for 10 seconds, reconnect your battery and hopefully your exhaust heat light should go out. Did you make any changes to the cars standard cat? the wiring for the exhaust heat light is under the drivers seat and will illuminate if there is a break in the circuit. This could cause your car to go into limp mode.
255 ish at the flywheel is standard for these cars, but with your mods you should be seeing more than that. maybe 280-290ish at the flywheel. With a PFC youll easily see 300 at the wheels with your porting and no cat. (not sure if you still have one?)
The japanese cars dont have a check engine light, you have to attatch a bulb/LED to two terminals in the diagnosis connector and then bridge another to get the faults off the car. I cant remember how to do this, but i can find out for you. I suggest you do this, and also reset your ECU by disconnecting your battery as i said before.
Also check your compression, but i suspect it should be fine.
If the cars smoking when you first start it up, what colour is the smoke? how much of it is there? What does it smell like? was it cold the night before?
lots of things cause smoke. MY car puffs black and white smoke all the time,but they are generally before or after flames sooo...
It sounds like your cars in limp mode, and if it is then there must be a reason for that. You need to find that reason, itll be an ECU Fault - something electrical somewhere.
05-22-07, 06:05 PM
#82
OK Great, thanks heaps for the help, particularly Bobfish (you're a champ) I'll try the suggestions you mentioned.
Comp test will be done in the next day or two.
I have no cat converter or any other restriction in my exhaust system. thanks for the tip on the wiring to the sensor under the seat, I'll check it out.
The smoke is white (oil) on first start up. It goes away fairly quickly and doesn't appear at all once car is at normal operating temp. I suspect it is my turbos being on the worn side considering the original milage on the chassis (133,000 kms). I'm not too worried if it is the turbos that are worn, I'll drive it until they fail.
RX7Twinturbo: I haven't thrashed the car yet. I have only been to the track to run the car in as it isn't street registered. I kept out of the boost. The first WOT run was on the dyno by the tuner after 1 oil change and 400kms on the rebuilt engine. I'm not an idiot, I know a bit about rotaries, I keep and eye on water temps and oil temps before I even drive them.
What you have to remember is how hard it is for me to put miles on the car being a race car only. Street car = different story.
Thanks for your help Bobfish, I'll let you all know how I get on soon. Hopefully with some decent numbers this time :-)
Comp test will be done in the next day or two.
I have no cat converter or any other restriction in my exhaust system. thanks for the tip on the wiring to the sensor under the seat, I'll check it out.
The smoke is white (oil) on first start up. It goes away fairly quickly and doesn't appear at all once car is at normal operating temp. I suspect it is my turbos being on the worn side considering the original milage on the chassis (133,000 kms). I'm not too worried if it is the turbos that are worn, I'll drive it until they fail.
RX7Twinturbo: I haven't thrashed the car yet. I have only been to the track to run the car in as it isn't street registered. I kept out of the boost. The first WOT run was on the dyno by the tuner after 1 oil change and 400kms on the rebuilt engine. I'm not an idiot, I know a bit about rotaries, I keep and eye on water temps and oil temps before I even drive them.
What you have to remember is how hard it is for me to put miles on the car being a race car only. Street car = different story.
Thanks for your help Bobfish, I'll let you all know how I get on soon. Hopefully with some decent numbers this time :-)
05-24-07, 08:41 AM
#83
white smoke is coolant. Blue tinge is oil.
If its coolant, thats bad. But wont cause a loss of power. It starts on both rotors right?
Describe exactly what happens when you start the car, the idle, the vac level and how much smoke is it? (enough to make you choke if started in a closed garage?)
Its difficult to diagnose cars remotely...i hope it all works out bud!
If its coolant, thats bad. But wont cause a loss of power. It starts on both rotors right?
Describe exactly what happens when you start the car, the idle, the vac level and how much smoke is it? (enough to make you choke if started in a closed garage?)
Its difficult to diagnose cars remotely...i hope it all works out bud!
05-26-07, 06:25 AM
#84
Update:
OK Guys, I was able to do a compression check on my car today. ~95psi on all faces which was a big relief to see. So mechanical cause for this lack of power is ruled out now, I’m fairly sure it’s something electrical.
I removed the drivers seat and hey presto there was a 3 pin plug underneath, not connected to anything.
Here are some pictures:
(sorry about the shitty quality, I took these with my phone)
So is this definitely the wiring to the exhaust heat temp sensor that I’m obviously missing? (from the cat that I don’t have?)
Since I’ve had the car I have never had a stock exhaust to take the sensor out of and test. I tested the wiring and the black plug is earth and the other 2 terminals have neither +12V or GND on them. I messed around with bridging them while the car was idling but couldn’t get the light on the dash to go out. So I’m guessing I have to put a resistor in here somewhere guys?
So what I want to know from all you gurus out there is:
What do I need to do with this connecter to fool the ECU into thinking the exhaust temp is OK?
Also, Bobfish, if you could please let me know how to pull ECU codes on my car that has no CEL, that would be fantastic. And I tried re-setting the ECU as you said, but nothing would make the light on the dash go out once the car was started. It’s not likely to be my O2 sensor is it?
So I’m going to go and buy a PFC which I’m hoping doesn’t need this EXH TEMP circuit and will allow me to get my correct power? At the moment the OEM ECU is holding back timing and boost because it thinks the exhaust temp is too high…..so that’s the theory anyways.
I look forward to your responses guys……
OK Guys, I was able to do a compression check on my car today. ~95psi on all faces which was a big relief to see. So mechanical cause for this lack of power is ruled out now, I’m fairly sure it’s something electrical.
I removed the drivers seat and hey presto there was a 3 pin plug underneath, not connected to anything.
Here are some pictures:
(sorry about the shitty quality, I took these with my phone)
So is this definitely the wiring to the exhaust heat temp sensor that I’m obviously missing? (from the cat that I don’t have?)
Since I’ve had the car I have never had a stock exhaust to take the sensor out of and test. I tested the wiring and the black plug is earth and the other 2 terminals have neither +12V or GND on them. I messed around with bridging them while the car was idling but couldn’t get the light on the dash to go out. So I’m guessing I have to put a resistor in here somewhere guys?
So what I want to know from all you gurus out there is:
What do I need to do with this connecter to fool the ECU into thinking the exhaust temp is OK?
Also, Bobfish, if you could please let me know how to pull ECU codes on my car that has no CEL, that would be fantastic. And I tried re-setting the ECU as you said, but nothing would make the light on the dash go out once the car was started. It’s not likely to be my O2 sensor is it?
So I’m going to go and buy a PFC which I’m hoping doesn’t need this EXH TEMP circuit and will allow me to get my correct power? At the moment the OEM ECU is holding back timing and boost because it thinks the exhaust temp is too high…..so that’s the theory anyways.
I look forward to your responses guys……
05-26-07, 07:48 AM
#85
Do you have aftermarket seats? because im pretty sure thats your seatbelt pre tensioner wire. Leaving that unplugged is ok. You have to pull the carpet back to get to the cat heat sensor. Does your car have a cat? If not, you should have a two pin wire with the connectors bridged - no resistor.
To pull the carpet back, its easiest to remove the rear seats and the kickplate (the one that says RX7 on it) this should give you enough room to pull the carpet up.
To pull the carpet back, its easiest to remove the rear seats and the kickplate (the one that says RX7 on it) this should give you enough room to pull the carpet up.
05-26-07, 07:55 AM
#86
Re: Pulling codes:
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hlight=FEN+MEN
I used the LED method. But i believe a 12v automotive bulb will work just as well without the resistor.
You can find the code definitions in the FSM For the ECU. I think a long flash is 10, and a short one is one - so if you get:
long flash, long flash, short flash short flahs
thats 22 - 10+10+1+1.
Good luck!
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hlight=FEN+MEN
I used the LED method. But i believe a 12v automotive bulb will work just as well without the resistor.
You can find the code definitions in the FSM For the ECU. I think a long flash is 10, and a short one is one - so if you get:
long flash, long flash, short flash short flahs
thats 22 - 10+10+1+1.
Good luck!
05-26-07, 08:04 AM
#87
I see from your sig you have no cat - sorry,im blind.
Your pins should be bridged i believe, if you have a PFC (which i dont think you do) then this light is used to indicate excess knock levels.
IF its a stock ECU i expect that some wiring has come out or something. You dont have a cat heat sensor right?
Your pins should be bridged i believe, if you have a PFC (which i dont think you do) then this light is used to indicate excess knock levels.
IF its a stock ECU i expect that some wiring has come out or something. You dont have a cat heat sensor right?
05-26-07, 06:03 PM
#88
Thanks Bobfish. You the man. Very helpful.
I have standard seats with a 4pt harnesses, so I removed the OEM seatbelt. I'll lift the carpet and take another look for the heat plug with 2 wires (which I'll just bridge out)
Definately no cat heat sensor. When I got the car it had no exhaust so I had a 3in mandrel one made with no cats.
I'm gonna get myself a PFC and get this thing tuned by a rotor specialist. I'll let you guys know how I get on.
I have standard seats with a 4pt harnesses, so I removed the OEM seatbelt. I'll lift the carpet and take another look for the heat plug with 2 wires (which I'll just bridge out)
Definately no cat heat sensor. When I got the car it had no exhaust so I had a 3in mandrel one made with no cats.
I'm gonna get myself a PFC and get this thing tuned by a rotor specialist. I'll let you guys know how I get on.
05-27-07, 01:39 PM
#89
I suggest you don't drive the car in boost at all until you get it mapped.
running with a stock ecu with no cat and a street port is asking for trouble. Alot of people say "Keep it under 11psi youll be fine" i dont believe this though. Problem is that the FD uses a MAP based system, which delivers fuel at a given boost pressure - this is calibrated against the precalculated flow rate of the engine based on standard cat an ports.
because you have removed those restrictions and opened up the ports, youve removed alot of restriction - ergo your boost pressure may be 10psi but the actualy FLOW of gas through the engine is greater, the car only delivers fuel based on the flow rate it knows so you will be leaning out.
It could even be the source of your low power problem. What are you knock levels / afrs like?
running with a stock ecu with no cat and a street port is asking for trouble. Alot of people say "Keep it under 11psi youll be fine" i dont believe this though. Problem is that the FD uses a MAP based system, which delivers fuel at a given boost pressure - this is calibrated against the precalculated flow rate of the engine based on standard cat an ports.
because you have removed those restrictions and opened up the ports, youve removed alot of restriction - ergo your boost pressure may be 10psi but the actualy FLOW of gas through the engine is greater, the car only delivers fuel based on the flow rate it knows so you will be leaning out.
It could even be the source of your low power problem. What are you knock levels / afrs like?
05-27-07, 04:15 PM
#90
sorry mate...didnt realise it was not street registered.
that would be quite frustrating to run in...
good to hear its not ur engine...i hate these types of niggling electrical problems.
to reitterate what bobfish was sayin...i would strongly suggest getting a PFC...not only will be safer, you will be able to get the most out of ur modds....
hope you sort it out soon....
who would you go to to get it tuned?
i noticed ur in VIC...i would suggest Maztech....they're a great team down there...i trust them completely.
that would be quite frustrating to run in...
good to hear its not ur engine...i hate these types of niggling electrical problems.
to reitterate what bobfish was sayin...i would strongly suggest getting a PFC...not only will be safer, you will be able to get the most out of ur modds....
hope you sort it out soon....
who would you go to to get it tuned?
i noticed ur in VIC...i would suggest Maztech....they're a great team down there...i trust them completely.
05-27-07, 06:39 PM
#91
Thanks guys, on your good advice I will be getting a PFC. Then having it tuned properly.
Bobfish I don't know about knock but A/F ratios were apparantly OK (check the dyno sheet) but the tuner thought the timing was being held back by the ECU hence low power. Smoke on startup is definately oil smoke and appears to be coming from the turbos which doesn't surprise me (they have done 133,000kms).
I will not be driving the car until I get a PFC and have it tuned properly. I've got a small manifold leak at the turbos so they may be coming off in the near future, and I may go non-seq I think......might have to have the turbos rebuilt too......
rx-7twinturbo, I'm not in VIC, I'm in Newcastle NSW mate. I'm going to take it to www.rxengineering.com to be tuned, they know their way around a piston-less engine!
Stay tuned for updates soon guys.... I'm about to become a father again so could be a week or so with nothing but I will let you all know how I get on a bit later.....
Bobfish I don't know about knock but A/F ratios were apparantly OK (check the dyno sheet) but the tuner thought the timing was being held back by the ECU hence low power. Smoke on startup is definately oil smoke and appears to be coming from the turbos which doesn't surprise me (they have done 133,000kms).
I will not be driving the car until I get a PFC and have it tuned properly. I've got a small manifold leak at the turbos so they may be coming off in the near future, and I may go non-seq I think......might have to have the turbos rebuilt too......
rx-7twinturbo, I'm not in VIC, I'm in Newcastle NSW mate. I'm going to take it to www.rxengineering.com to be tuned, they know their way around a piston-less engine!
Stay tuned for updates soon guys.... I'm about to become a father again so could be a week or so with nothing but I will let you all know how I get on a bit later.....
05-30-07, 05:06 PM
#92
Rotary Freak
Not sure it helps, your heat sensor is situated on the floor directly in line with the handbrake, almost next to the transmission tunnel and probably 3~4cm behind the floor reinforcing rib. The wiring for it appears to be about midway along the driver's door aperture loom - if the two connectors mating are any indication! Doen't seem to cause any errors with it not installed, at least with a PFC.
Looks like that baby bonus is spoken for.
Looks like that baby bonus is spoken for.
07-02-07, 07:41 PM
#94
Update!
Hey guys,
Update time!
I dug underneath the carpet and found the connector to the exhaust temp sensor, thanks Bobfish, you're a legend! Nothing was connected so I bridged the plug and hey presto, the light on the dash went out!
I have also purchased a PFC and commander, so I plugged them in before the next dyno tune.
Up she went on the rollers and produced 224rwhp which I though wasn't too bad.
Here's the dyno sheet:
The tuner told me that there is something wrong with my turbos. They only seem to be producing 5psi or so. And there is a BIG dip in power on the transition between primary and secondary turbos, so there is clearly something wrong with the rats nest & / or solenoids (also worn turbos).
My next point of action is to pull the turbos off and simplify the system by going non sequential.
I'm gonna look around for some '99 turbos too as mine have done 133,000kms and are pretty worn.
A Greddy Profec B boost controller will also be installed soon.
I'm then hoping to have the boost set at 12 psi, and target is 300rwhp which should be acheivable.
I'm gonna put my car down the drag strip soon so I'll let you guys know what numbers I get. What should be my target?
I'm still getting no boost sometimes in 2nd gear, and only 5psi in 1st gear which is quite frustrating and more reasons for me wanting to go to non-seq and some better condition, lower milage turbos + EBC.
Stay tuned for my 1/4 mile timeslip soon.....
Update time!
I dug underneath the carpet and found the connector to the exhaust temp sensor, thanks Bobfish, you're a legend! Nothing was connected so I bridged the plug and hey presto, the light on the dash went out!
I have also purchased a PFC and commander, so I plugged them in before the next dyno tune.
Up she went on the rollers and produced 224rwhp which I though wasn't too bad.
Here's the dyno sheet:
The tuner told me that there is something wrong with my turbos. They only seem to be producing 5psi or so. And there is a BIG dip in power on the transition between primary and secondary turbos, so there is clearly something wrong with the rats nest & / or solenoids (also worn turbos).
My next point of action is to pull the turbos off and simplify the system by going non sequential.
I'm gonna look around for some '99 turbos too as mine have done 133,000kms and are pretty worn.
A Greddy Profec B boost controller will also be installed soon.
I'm then hoping to have the boost set at 12 psi, and target is 300rwhp which should be acheivable.
I'm gonna put my car down the drag strip soon so I'll let you guys know what numbers I get. What should be my target?
I'm still getting no boost sometimes in 2nd gear, and only 5psi in 1st gear which is quite frustrating and more reasons for me wanting to go to non-seq and some better condition, lower milage turbos + EBC.
Stay tuned for my 1/4 mile timeslip soon.....
09-08-07, 01:44 PM
#97
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Hi, I admire your work and effort to solve the problems..
I'm thinking my car is also running in safe mode cause my heat light is also always on.. the problem is.. I can find the connector under the driver's seat, does anyone know where that wire is going to? ecu maybe? which pins
thanks a lot and great job
I'm thinking my car is also running in safe mode cause my heat light is also always on.. the problem is.. I can find the connector under the driver's seat, does anyone know where that wire is going to? ecu maybe? which pins
thanks a lot and great job
09-09-07, 12:18 AM
#99
Hey Guys,
Haven't updated for ages.
Since my last post, I've done a full non-seq mod and installed a Greddy Profec B spec II. And the results are......
WOW I finally have good, reliable boost! Top stuff! The car feels MUCH more powerful.
I didn't have time to get the car dyno'd again before my most recent hillclimb in Kempsey, but I did win my class by over 2.5 seconds and set a new class record!!
I will post again soon with a new dyno sheet. I'm expecting a good dose of extra hp....
At the moment I have the turbos off again, replacing some gaskets and studs/nuts trying to fix a manifold leak. I'm going to get a 70mm stainless steel downpipe as well.
YOUWISH - I'm in Newcastle mate, but go to Sydney from time to time.
Stay Tuned for more updates....
Haven't updated for ages.
Since my last post, I've done a full non-seq mod and installed a Greddy Profec B spec II. And the results are......
WOW I finally have good, reliable boost! Top stuff! The car feels MUCH more powerful.
I didn't have time to get the car dyno'd again before my most recent hillclimb in Kempsey, but I did win my class by over 2.5 seconds and set a new class record!!
I will post again soon with a new dyno sheet. I'm expecting a good dose of extra hp....
At the moment I have the turbos off again, replacing some gaskets and studs/nuts trying to fix a manifold leak. I'm going to get a 70mm stainless steel downpipe as well.
YOUWISH - I'm in Newcastle mate, but go to Sydney from time to time.
Stay Tuned for more updates....
09-09-07, 07:20 AM
#100
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get a dyno run with a list of your mods!!!
my engine with poormans non-sequential, untuned pfc and intakes pulled 196.9rwkw (264hp). I forgot what gear mine was done in but the max power was all the way at 195kph.
my engine with poormans non-sequential, untuned pfc and intakes pulled 196.9rwkw (264hp). I forgot what gear mine was done in but the max power was all the way at 195kph.