DJSETO - My '93 FD Build Thread
02-26-23, 08:00 PM
#826
Thank you @seckerich for the summary and all the help so far (and in the future).
I'm FINALLY relieved to have a cause as we all know this saga has carried on way too long. Perhaps the part that hurts though is that fact that I am sort of to blame. If you go back to the way early part of this thread, you'll see that when I first took this car to Bryan at Rotorsports, I bought one of his rebuilt motors. It came with 3mm OEM seals and for reasons I can't remember (likely lots of research here --- for better or worse), I decided I wanted 2mm seals. So rather than run the rotors from Bryan, we re-used the ones that came out of the car when I found it. Now, we can't be certain they were already bad at that time, but it's really sticking in the back of my mind that I may have cost myself WAY TOO much money. Maybe somewhere in the multiverse, there is a version of this story where my car is running great after that VERY first rebuilt and my wallet would be about $10k heavier.
So now I'm at yet again a financial crossroads. New rotors are not cheap. My guess is they will be close to $1000 a piece. Add that to the new housings I got and I'll likely more than half way to a new engine. At this point, I'm looking at new seals, new rotors, and the discounted rate Bryan is charging me to remove/install the motor. @seckerich also highly recommends the improved water pump that Mazmart sells since I will track this car occasionally. I'm guessing it's another $3-3.5k to throw onto the burn pile.
Given this is the third (or fourth) time I've said I'm done with throwing money at the car, here I am again trying to decide if it's worth it or if I'll just have another unforeseen issue down the road. I legit will be sitting at $70k on this car after this rebuild. Remember the chassis only cost me $5500. Typing this now makes me want vomit and go back in time and punch myself in the face for ever buying this car.
I'm FINALLY relieved to have a cause as we all know this saga has carried on way too long. Perhaps the part that hurts though is that fact that I am sort of to blame. If you go back to the way early part of this thread, you'll see that when I first took this car to Bryan at Rotorsports, I bought one of his rebuilt motors. It came with 3mm OEM seals and for reasons I can't remember (likely lots of research here --- for better or worse), I decided I wanted 2mm seals. So rather than run the rotors from Bryan, we re-used the ones that came out of the car when I found it. Now, we can't be certain they were already bad at that time, but it's really sticking in the back of my mind that I may have cost myself WAY TOO much money. Maybe somewhere in the multiverse, there is a version of this story where my car is running great after that VERY first rebuilt and my wallet would be about $10k heavier.
So now I'm at yet again a financial crossroads. New rotors are not cheap. My guess is they will be close to $1000 a piece. Add that to the new housings I got and I'll likely more than half way to a new engine. At this point, I'm looking at new seals, new rotors, and the discounted rate Bryan is charging me to remove/install the motor. @seckerich also highly recommends the improved water pump that Mazmart sells since I will track this car occasionally. I'm guessing it's another $3-3.5k to throw onto the burn pile.
Given this is the third (or fourth) time I've said I'm done with throwing money at the car, here I am again trying to decide if it's worth it or if I'll just have another unforeseen issue down the road. I legit will be sitting at $70k on this car after this rebuild. Remember the chassis only cost me $5500. Typing this now makes me want vomit and go back in time and punch myself in the face for ever buying this car.
The following 2 users liked this post by Djseto:
ATC529R (02-27-23),
gracer7-rx7 (02-27-23)
02-26-23, 08:59 PM
#829
I was looking at S5 rotors costing less than REW, and the early S4 3mm low compression in between
the rotors themselves can be imported from JP for quite a bit under $1k each. Don’t get so dejected. I and others here can likely assist you with maneuvering through it for less than you listed. Getting tougher by the day though in the current economic conditions. We can all relate to that. Take a deep breath and let’s pursue the options first, then you can decide.
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the rotors themselves can be imported from JP for quite a bit under $1k each. Don’t get so dejected. I and others here can likely assist you with maneuvering through it for less than you listed. Getting tougher by the day though in the current economic conditions. We can all relate to that. Take a deep breath and let’s pursue the options first, then you can decide.
.
02-27-23, 11:58 AM
#832
I checked Mazda Motorsports pricing to try and ease your pain.
23-102a is a little under $600 each depending on somethings that I don't understand but others smarter than me probably do.
23-1801 is ~$70 for the set.
To me it sounds like you are so close to getting this thing running correctly. Painful but close. I hope you decide to stick with it and that it will bring you lots of smiles in the future.
23-102a is a little under $600 each depending on somethings that I don't understand but others smarter than me probably do.
23-1801 is ~$70 for the set.
To me it sounds like you are so close to getting this thing running correctly. Painful but close. I hope you decide to stick with it and that it will bring you lots of smiles in the future.
Last edited by gracer7-rx7; 02-27-23 at 12:31 PM.
02-27-23, 01:03 PM
#834
I had someone else looking into MazdaMotorsport pricing and from what they found, once you got to checkout, the price changes in cart to just around $800 each.
Bryan has a set of used Rotors he's going to send to @seckerich to check out. Steve said as long as they pass his inspection, they will be good to run.
Bryan has a set of used Rotors he's going to send to @seckerich to check out. Steve said as long as they pass his inspection, they will be good to run.
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gracer7-rx7 (02-27-23)
02-27-23, 08:14 PM
#838
On the fence. Likely between OEM, iRotary, or RA SuperSeals again. Both Bryan and Steve said I can't go wrong with OEM at the power levels I'm looking to make (<400 WHP @ 14psi). They just don't give you much headroom for unforeseen detonation without the risk of shattering and doing damage on the way out. Exploring some pricing connection to see if I can soften the blow of whatever choice I go with...
02-28-23, 08:48 AM
#839
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
"I can't go wrong with OEM at the power levels I'm looking to make (<400 WHP @ 14psi). They just don't give you much headroom for unforeseen detonation without the risk of shattering and doing damage on the way out. "
i suggest you seriously re-read what you just typed... you are running a 540 rw rotary hp turbo. sure, you are going to run it under 400
OE seals do not fit a single turbo app. deteriorating gasoline quality is the primary challenge. it is not if you encounter sub par gasoline but when. and when you get some elevated knock it is likely you will chip the corner from the OE seals. the corner will scar both your rotor housing, rotor and turbine wheel. i encountered some bad gas in 2018. at that point i had not set up my knock system as ACTIVE. my Goopy apex seals were fine. if i was running OE seals i believe (opinion) that i would have had a broken motor.
since (opinion again) i believe your apex seals have been the victim, not the culprit, i don't think apex seal choice is too big a deal. i run I-Seals but i also would have no problem running REC, RXParts, E&J and Goopy.
the big deal for you is dealing w the question as to what IS the culprit.
i suggest you seriously re-read what you just typed... you are running a 540 rw rotary hp turbo. sure, you are going to run it under 400
OE seals do not fit a single turbo app. deteriorating gasoline quality is the primary challenge. it is not if you encounter sub par gasoline but when. and when you get some elevated knock it is likely you will chip the corner from the OE seals. the corner will scar both your rotor housing, rotor and turbine wheel. i encountered some bad gas in 2018. at that point i had not set up my knock system as ACTIVE. my Goopy apex seals were fine. if i was running OE seals i believe (opinion) that i would have had a broken motor.
since (opinion again) i believe your apex seals have been the victim, not the culprit, i don't think apex seal choice is too big a deal. i run I-Seals but i also would have no problem running REC, RXParts, E&J and Goopy.
the big deal for you is dealing w the question as to what IS the culprit.
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Djseto (02-28-23)
02-28-23, 09:03 AM
#840
"I can't go wrong with OEM at the power levels I'm looking to make (<400 WHP @ 14psi). They just don't give you much headroom for unforeseen detonation without the risk of shattering and doing damage on the way out. "
i suggest you seriously re-read what you just typed... you are running a 540 rw rotary hp turbo. sure, you are going to run it under 400
.
i suggest you seriously re-read what you just typed... you are running a 540 rw rotary hp turbo. sure, you are going to run it under 400
.
02-28-23, 09:40 AM
#841
When I had a known working engine, I was making just around 408WHP (298 torque) at 14psi, granted it was on a dyno that I've been told is a heartbreaker. I do however plan to keep my boost turned down to 10-12psi or so. My boost is controlled via rotary switch so I can adjust in 1psi increments from 7 (spring pressure) to 14psi max. Also, since I'm not tuning for the AI, that should keep my HP numbers slightly down, right? At this point, I'm going for longevity for sure...
Last edited by AlexG13B; 02-28-23 at 10:28 AM.
03-01-23, 06:32 AM
#843
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
Re: Apex Seals, agreed that OEM isn't a viable option for you. Based on everything I've read here concerning your specific situation, and all of my experience with high-powered street rotaries over the years...... if it's my engine, I'm going with RxParts apex seals.
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R-R-Rx7 (03-02-23)
03-09-23, 11:58 PM
#844
So the word on the street is that the used rotors Bryan had are good. @seckerich checked them out and he’s wrapping up some balancing work and cleaning up the rotors so they are in spec.
It’s just down to seal selection. Bryan says outside of OEM, he feels the rest on the market are largely all good for my application and none really stand out from the others. He has first hand experience with RA, E&J and Goopy. He says it’s really up to me at this point. If I’m looking at cost, it goes RA, Goopy, then E&J from least to most expensive. I don’t wanna get stuck in analysis paralysis again when it comes to seal selection. Of course when i search threads here I see posts in favor or against just about every brand…
It’s just down to seal selection. Bryan says outside of OEM, he feels the rest on the market are largely all good for my application and none really stand out from the others. He has first hand experience with RA, E&J and Goopy. He says it’s really up to me at this point. If I’m looking at cost, it goes RA, Goopy, then E&J from least to most expensive. I don’t wanna get stuck in analysis paralysis again when it comes to seal selection. Of course when i search threads here I see posts in favor or against just about every brand…
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Djseto (03-11-23)
03-11-23, 08:36 AM
#848
Since we’re on seals, what’s the benefit/difference to 1,2, and 3 pc seals??
im leaning towards Goopy since it’s a brand my builder has experience with and @aplscrambles has a motor from Bryan built with those seals. I know IRP pushes rxparts but I kinda wanna stay with what my builder has experience with. I know it shouldn’t matter but at this point I’m trying to minimize unknown variables in this last and final build.
im leaning towards Goopy since it’s a brand my builder has experience with and @aplscrambles has a motor from Bryan built with those seals. I know IRP pushes rxparts but I kinda wanna stay with what my builder has experience with. I know it shouldn’t matter but at this point I’m trying to minimize unknown variables in this last and final build.
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aplscrambles (03-11-23)
03-11-23, 09:19 AM
#849
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not only does this give the rotary more TIME to leak down but also more PLACES, therefore sealing is important. its part of the reason why the rotary has less low end than the equivalent piston engine.
so the 3 piece seals seal better. they adjust for width and length. we don't think about it much but to seal its not just the seal to the rotor housing, but also the seal to the rotor.
2 piece seals are simpler, and thought to be stronger. the 2nd piece lets the seal adjust for housing/rotor width. it seems like the aftermarket 2 piece seals warp, and then the JDM tuners like to use 3 piece seals for high power builds, so there is more to the story than just the strength of the seal.
and then 1 piece seals don't adjust for width. typically these were used in the 80's race cars, and if you had a bridge port big enough that seals would fall into them.
The following 2 users liked this post by j9fd3s:
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Howard Coleman (03-11-23)
03-11-23, 03:10 PM
#850
but honestly, you should be recognizing by now that they more or less all have issues, and even this issue. Because that’s exactly what these aftermarket seals are supposed to do; limit the damage and save the engine from catastrophic failure to live another day.
I might suggest that a modified, high-output 30 year old sports car is perhaps not the best choice to have an expectation of hassle-free OEM reliability with. Unfortunately the market cooled some since my previous suggestion to consider selling high while you could. You know what’s in my heart more than anyone else here who’ll read this when I further suggest that perhaps your heart isn’t really into the RX7 so much compared to the other things going on in your life.
Because when you’re into something where every single detail becomes a festering point, then perhaps it’s time to consider making a change to the things that you can find joy in instead.
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Last edited by TeamRX8; 03-11-23 at 03:13 PM.