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just covering all the bases... your problem is heat... AI will clearly improve the heat situation. another area to double, triple check is your ignition calibration. i recall you bought a timing light. check it again and also rev it up a bit w the light to make sure it stays on the mark at higher rpms... 5000 will do it.
just covering all the bases... your problem is heat... AI will clearly improve the heat situation. another area to double, triple check is your ignition calibration. i recall you bought a timing light. check it again and also rev it up a bit w the light to make sure it stays on the mark at higher rpms... 5000 will do it.
Nelson is also my tuner and he seems pretty **** when it comes to timing.
he had me verify several times at idle and revving to like 7k rpms and even had me check with another gun all together when we thought we had an issue.
idk if my timing Map is way different but at roughly 5500 rpms and bar of boost its like 8* advanced and 14 split?
@Howard Coleman I can check it again but we checked it before each dyno session and we used the really nice snap on tools one the shop I rented a dyno from vs the one I got on Amazon (which is the one Nelson recommended as well) just to double check readings.
@Howard Coleman@DaleClark - Where in this setup would you put the injector? As you can see, my IAT sensor is in my elbow since the one I had in my stock location was not behaving right during my dyno session. Rather than order one and reschedule the dyno session, the shop had GM IAT sensor that they welded in the intake in 15 min. I assume I want the injector before my IAT sensor because I want to read the post AI temp. If I put it in my greddy elbow like I've seen others do on this forum, I won't be measuring the right IAT temp at my sensor (pre-AI).
My intake air temp sensor is a fast reacting one in the stock location. I have the AEM nozzle in the bottom of the TB elbow and another VERY small nozzle in front of the primary turbo inlet.
I use the stock windshield washer tank, I put a siphon tube in it from the top that the WI draws from. Also installed a universal float level in it. I have it wired to the AEM controller, if the tank runs out the AEM controller basically shuts off the boost controller so I run 7psi until I pour in more washer fluid.
I did a mini build ages ago, a lot of that stuff is documented there -
thanks for providing a picture. the single best place to fixture the AI nozzle is at the 3 o'clock position (viewed from the front of the elbow) in the front longitudinal half. the reason for the 3 o'clock position is that it biases against the coming 90 degree turn. if you use 2, the second should be at 6 o'clock so as to favor the secondary throttle plates which are above the primary.
as to locating the IAT sensor, it really makes little difference as it doesn't do much. i discovered this in 2003 while on the dyno around 500 hp. i looked at the IAT reads from my Power FC and read 27 C from starting 2000 rpm to finish 9000 rpm. (27 C being 80F) i asked Luke and he said that it was the sensor and if i did want to actually read what was going on i needed a thermocouple.
here are two logs from two diff cars using a thermistor:
IAT is 70 F prior to boost.
IAT is 72 as cross into boost at 3:46.162
IAT is 72 at 100% TPS at 3:46.623
IAT is 72 at max boost (17.1 psi) at 3:48.590
IAT is 79 at zero boost at 3:56.041
first downtick from 79 comes at 3:59.808
the second log is modest boost and TPS but is similar as to IAT
IAT is 68 F before boost
IAT is 68 at highest TPS 16:57.687
IAT is 72 at max boost 17:00.493
IAT is 75 max temp 17:01.369
IAT is 75 at zero boost 17:05.552
IAT is 75 until 17:10.560
IATs don't work that way. here's how they actually track from one of my logs:
IAT is 96.8 F at zero boost
IAT is 115 at boost onset 4:55.689
Methanol is on at 4:55.806
IAT is 149.5 at max boost 29.5 psi 4:56.78
you'll note IAT goes flatish w the methanol as temp out of turbo rises
IAT is 163.4 at last 100% TPS 4:59.261
IAT is 102.6 TPS at .01 at 4:59.347
yes, IAT dropped 60.8 F in .086 of one second.
the max range on the 17 psi log was... 7 degrees F
first downtick over 11 seconds from max boost
the max range on the second log was 7 degrees
out of boost at 17:01.530 but still showing 75 until 17:10.160
many don't need a thermocouple IAT setup but if you do run a thermistor please know that your actual IATs will have little resemblence to what you see as being reported.
all that said, i remain open and interested to see if anyone is running some sort of thermistor that is accurate. please post your log. i am always wanting to learn.
@Howard Coleman i think I understand you. In this picture I think you mean where I put the red arrow vs the green line where @DaleClark suggested?
if you meant the red arrow, then that means I inject past the IAT sensor so that means my IAT will not read the correct temp since it’s read pre AI?
If I can find a 10mm x 1.25 to 3/8NPT adapter I could relocate my IAT to the OEM location in the UIM. Haven’t had any luck on Amazon finding that type of adapter/ reducer.
@Howard Coleman i think I understand you. In this picture I think you mean where I put the red arrow vs the green line where @DaleClark suggested?
if you meant the red arrow, then that means I inject past the IAT sensor so that means my IAT will not read the correct temp since it’s read pre AI?
If I can find a 10mm x 1.25 to 3/8NPT adapter I could relocate my IAT to the OEM location in the UIM. Haven’t had any luck on Amazon finding that type of adapter/ reducer.
if you look at the IAT data from the two examples above you probably should conclude it doesn't make any diff where you locate the thermistor if you are running 100% water. i mounted two models of thermistors into my UIM last year to get readings V my thermocouple. i also looked for an adapter fitting and found nothing. (of course they probably exist, just wasn't able to locate). i used a 3/8 bung and attached it underneath my UIM. both sensors gave me pretty flat readings.
as to the 2 AI locations, either is fine. people genuinely in the know locate the 100% meth nozzles where Dale indicates. meth works some of it's magic by "flashing." as it changes state down goes the temp. it needs, so the theory goes, a little time so the entry location is a bit more upstream. water does more of it's thing in the combustion chamber and does not flash as meth so it doesn't need to be located upstream compared to methanol. i believe Dale is running windshield wiper mix so part of his injectant is methanol. initially there was a lot of "you are running bug juice?" not anymore. it is considered perhaps one of the best options.
when i was working on a solenoid based AI system with FJO a number of years ago Fred mentioned that they had a 'shop car." it was a Camaro making over 1300 rwhp, dual purpose and had been running a ton of boost for 3 years. i asked them what they were running for injectant.
Fred said, "bug juice." that was the first time i had heard the tag. he said it was water and methanol with coloring and an inconsequential amount of soap. worked for them, works for many. FJO was acquired (as many companies) by Holley and FJO and Fred went on to design most of Holley's hugely popular ECUs converting stone age muscle cars to EFI.
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 10-20-22 at 07:56 AM.
@R-R-Rx7 the simple reason is that I would need to cut my harness (again) and I’d need to have Nelson update the calibration in the map for the new sensor. I actually had one from Chris and during my second dyno session it was reading way off. Nelson said he prefers the GM ones and the shop I rented the dyno from had one so they welded it into my charge pipe and also cut my harness since it was previously wired for the Triump Fast Reacting one Chris sells. But mainly, it’s having to go back to Nelson. I’m actually debating going to TuneByShawn to get an unlocked map and to get away from lawyer like billable hours. But I really don’t love spending another $600 when I really just wanna see it AI gets me to a better spot to see if my compression levels off and doesn’t get worse.
@Howard Coleman so what you’re saying is that with water, I won’t see any temp changes in my IAT sensor even if it’s post AI? @DaleClark are you tuning for your washer fluid mix? @Howard Coleman could I just run the washer fluid instead of water?
I also don’t know if IAT affects the way my tune works so if my IAT isn’t seeing the temp change, is my car running “wrong”. This is where I get lost in the tuning science…
i suggest you leave the IAT sensorwhere it is... you don't need to change your tune. while there are many dynamic items that are relevant, IAT is not one of them. as you indicated, Nelson included IAT, as one of your failsafes at 200 F. should you reach an actual 200, which i highly doubt, other dynamic metrics such as boost or AFR will register and your timing will adust so as to save your motor. so IAT is not important.
normally i would suggest you run what Dale runs... however since you have warped a bunch of seals i would start out ultra conservative with 100% water. if all goes well my guess is you would end up w Dale as to type of injectant..
Yeah I don't have the system tuned for it or anything, of course remember I'm on a PFC. Got the car running right and safe then added the AEM with a conservative setup, makes the car run like a cold day every day.
Again, people WAY WAY overthink a water injection setup. Just get the AEM controller, set it up, and forget about it. Don't tune special for it, don't go overboard with it, just set it and forget it.
If you are trying to push the outer limits of power (like 600hp) yeah do something different. If you want 300-400 and want it to be reliable, just put this system on and go. I just use cheap blue windshield washer fluid and that's that.
I've been using and advocating for water injection with wiper fluid for almost 20 years now. Ideally the winter blend, -20 degrees F. Any modified FD over about 350 to the wheels all the way up to 500ish at ~20 psi on a typical 66mm inducer compressor wheel. First with Aquamist and then moved over to the AEM system. It's simple and reliable. In the past I've used the greddy elbow position but have since switched to the cold side IC pipe just before the p/s pulley area.
One word of advice: consider checking your rising rate FPR spring every year or two. The injectant makes it's way inside via the boost reference line on the UIM. Had this unpleasant surprise happen back in 2017, I'm probably due to pull out the replacement spring and check it out. Worth noting that the spring broke towards redline at 20 psi and the RxParts seals withstood the resulting hard detonation. Still running to this day.
Last edited by GoodfellaFD3S; 10-21-22 at 07:06 PM.
Windsheid washer fluid is mostly water FYI. Water with methanol added to reduce the freezing point and some color and detergent. The 32 deg. F washer fluid has no methanol, the lower the freezing point the more methanol it has.
I've been using and advocating for water injection with wiper fluid for almost 20 years now. Ideally the winter blend, -20 degrees F. Any modified FD over about 350 to the wheels all the way up to 500ish at ~20 psi on a typical 66mm inducer compressor wheel. First with Aquamist and then moved over to the AEM system. It's simple and reliable. In the past I've used the greddy elbow position but have since switched to the cold side IC pipe just before the p/s pulley area.
One word of advice: consider checking your rising rate FPR spring every year or two. The injectant makes it's way inside via the boost reference line on the UIM. Had this unpleasant surprise happen back in 2017, I'm probably due to pull out the replacement spring and check it out. Worth noting that the spring broke towards redline at 20 psi and the the RxParts seals withstood the resulting hard detonation. Still running to this day.
Thanks for the tip! I don't have a water/meth system yet, but I'm planning to add one to my build. I wonder if it would be worthwhile to rig up some sort of small baffled catch can or air/vapor separator to the FPR's boost reference line to prevent this sort of corrosion problem from happening in the first place? Idea would be to separate the water/meth liquid/vapor from the air and keep it from getting into the FPR.
I used -32°F washer fluid for several years on my FJO system and it would leave deposits inside the tb, eating away at the aluminum. It eventually seized the air bleed screw in the tb and I broke the tb trying to break it loose. I talked to Dale about this a while back and he said he never had issues with the 0°F fluid. I'd be interested to hear from others that have used different temp fluids. If Rich hasn't had issues with -32, then I'm not sure what makes my situation different.
I bought some methanol locally and mixed a 50/50 blend (by weight) to see if it would have the same effect but I didn't realize my system had stopped working already at that point. The washer fluid I was using is a 70/30 blend if I remember right, so if that amount of meth was the cause of my issues, the 50/50 blend certainly would have been worse, theoretically.
I have my injector mounted about where you drew the green line.
I used -32°F washer fluid for several years on my FJO system and it would leave deposits inside the tb, eating away at the aluminum. It eventually seized the air bleed screw in the tb and I broke the tb trying to break it loose. I talked to Dale about this a while back and he said he never had issues with the 0°F fluid. I'd be interested to hear from others that have used different temp fluids. If Rich hasn't had issues with -32, then I'm not sure what makes my situation different.
I bought some methanol locally and mixed a 50/50 blend (by weight) to see if it would have the same effect but I didn't realize my system had stopped working already at that point. The washer fluid I was using is a 70/30 blend if I remember right, so if that amount of meth was the cause of my issues, the 50/50 blend certainly would have been worse, theoretically.
I have my injector mounted about where you drew the green line.
I think it may be the detergents & coloring additives included with regular windshield washer fluids, not the meth that's in there to bring down the freeze temperature that causes some folks corrosion problems. If anyone out there is running just pure distilled water & meth at 50/50 or whatever mix ratio, it would be interesting to see if they have any sort of corrosion issues like you or Rich had. If they're not having corrosion issues, it would point to the detergents in the windshield washer fluid being the culprit.
most know that methanol does over time corrode aluminum. i have used 100% methanol as injectant since 2003. i have yet to see any evidence of throttle body corrosion. my airbleed screw works fine. my AI system is Alkycontrol. since my injectant is flammable the lines have dash 4 stainless steel woven outer liners and the fittings are brass rather than aluminum. if i were running a non-flammable injectant i would be fine w plastic lines and push-on fittings.
water of course is used to put out fires so it is reasonable to wonder just how much power does it remove. here's the math however the exec summary is almost nothing.
let's use 400 rw rotary hp and 10.75 AFR.
400 rwhp requires 53 pounds per minute of air
at 10 AFR that would also include 5.3 pounds per minute of fuel
adjusting for 10.75 10/10.75 = .93
.93 X 5.3 = 4.9 pounds fuel per minute
4.9/ 6.35 (weight of a gallon of gas) = .77 gallons per minute (2925 cc per minute for those interested)
.77 gallons per minute X 116,090 (BTUs in a gallon of gas) = 89,581 BTUs per minute.
water contains negative BTUs. (latent heat of vaporization) approx 8100 per gallon
assume 500 CC per minute of water
500 CC is .13 of a gallon
.13 X 8100 = 1053 negative BTUs
1053/89,581 = .011
500 cc of water at 400 rwhp 10.75 AFR costs about 4 rwhp.
as you see, you don't have to tune for it, you pretty much set it and forget it while reaping the numerous benefits.
grrr. AEM tank doesn’t fit. My options are $500 (shipping and tax) for the Sake Bomb Garage 2gallon that replaces OEM, mount interior behind passenger (looks tacky), or cut driver side bin. My battery is in passenger bin. I just hate to cut up any interior trim. My battery is a small odyssey so aside from a few holes with rubber grommets , I didn’t have to hack anything. 5 bills for a tank though is robbery.
Too tall and exposed. I like my rear privacy cover. This just looks tacky.
10-19-22, 11:39 AM
