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PFC is in after going round and round in my own mind about the best way for me to tackle the pin removal or wire removal from the unused wires. I chose to remove the pins off the PFC after I went back and absorbed what’s Fritz was trying to tell me in an earlier post. TU Fritz! I can tell you the instructions are very confusing on which end you are looking at and which terminals to break off so attached is a pic. I saw a post from Banzai where he says there are still folks doing it wrong. I looked at the color codes and double checked it ten times before doing this so I hope I got it right, it seems to be running fine and no engine and or error lights. The car was in good running condition so it went through the idle process just fine after resetting the unit back to factory settings. All to do now is get set up for a tune and see what this thing will put out HP wise now.
After pulling the Bat phone out the Excide AGM still will not hold a charge so the replacement is on the way. I tried waking the the battery with 2, 35 and 200 amp jolts and after letting it sit with 2 amps on it for 12 hours it just got hot and would only hold 9vdc. I believe it lost a cell.
I also received the commander holder from Banzai so it will be going in shortly.
I have compiled my parts list and sent it off to Chris at Rotary Performance for evaluation before the tune. I am about 6 hours away from his shop so before I make the haul it would be wise to be sure we are both comfortable with expectations and what we have to work with here. I started off with a target of safely making 350hp with only reliability “bolt on” mods. I realize keeping the exhaust mellow with the RB dual tip may limit my gains as well as some of my other choices. I’m gonna keep the tune safe as well. As long as I am into the 300+ I will be happy.
New Excide battery is in and car is up and running again. First tuner says no go with the Warlboro fuel pump so I haven’t installed it.. Still checking around and deciding on a tune. Driving me crazy not feeling comfortable being able to get on the car now that the ECU is changed.
I wish my old old tuner was still around. Anyone know of a tuner in central Texas ( SA or Austin)? Seems they are either in Dallas or Houston area anymore. Anyone move in while I was slacking?
Good question. It wasn’t whether or not to change it as it was about my selection. He didn’t like Walboro so much. I was also recommended to go to 2200 secondary injectors with fuel rail while I was at it and then put a safe tune on it. Believe me, I’ve come this far and want to do it right but I thought I was already set to go (with an upgraded pump only).
I think with any reputable tuner it will be about getting fuel to this motor and minimizing the possibility of it running lean. Espeacially a 19K mile car with factory seals.
Now if if I could only find someone local or close by to tune it.
He or his staff didn’t seem inclined to do so with the recommendations on the estimate that was sent. I suppose if I were to insist, since it is my car, they would do what I want. That is never a great idea in my experience. Not that I can’t or wouldn’t install my own pump and injectors, but, with those items (with fuel rail) I am looking at a few grand ($3-4) for a tune if they were to do everything. I was expecting a tune with dyno time to be in the neighborhood of $1K or so. I think $1k is realistic and still is if I buy the parts and do the work myself. Especially if the appropriate current parts to expectations are clear.
It was also suggested I remove my HKS twin power by his staff that looked over my build sheet. I’m sure there are varying opinions out there on this and I would like some now. Why would this be bad on my build? RP has apparently had bad experience with them. Something about the double spark can detonate the motor? Anyone else have input?
Im just not sure if I want to buy a diff pump than a Walboro or add a fuel rail and secondary injectors for what I am trying to achieve? I’m looking for safe and reliable with the ability to return to stock easily. I don’t want so much power that I am trying to push the car to its limits, more about breathe and get the heat out and pick up some pony’s while I am at it. My build has always been about reliability more than power.
When you add a day of travel (one way), day for tuning and sorting out car, day for travel back and you have a half a week travel expenses involved with no local tuner avail. That’s if everything goes as planned. This is getting pretty expensive quickly. Getting into my tire and wheel budget.
I agree with Rotary Performance and I will provide my reasoning.
The Walbro 255 HP fuel pump.
I went through a couple on my FC before I switched to Bosch Motorsports '044 (now hard to find a real one of), so for my low mile FD retaining otherwise stock fuel system I went with the Denso "Supra" pump.
The 220occ 2ndary injectors.
Good idea Rotary Performance. As stated, I have retained my stock fuel system/injectors besides the addition of a new reliable slightly upgraded fuel pump. I am running a Knightsports ROM tuned stock ECU that was tuned for my mods.
When I tried straight through exhaust as you have I had fuel cut from hitting maximum injector duty cycle at 17psi of boost creep.
Your Racing Beat catback may provide enough restriction that boost creep is kept in the nominally safe 14psi boost region, but you are literally one cold night away from more boost creep.
Now, with the PFC I believe they could program in an overboost fuel cut to keep you within the limits of the stock injectors, but they have probably done that in the past many times only to have customers with the commander disable the fuel cut when it becomes a nuisance.and then blow their motors.
And on to some unsolicited advice.
You have a beautiful low mile FD that looks like it is in great condition.
Why are you putting in the ancient Apex'i Power FC and worrying about the cost of 2ndary injectors.
I recommend a Plug and Play Haltech 2500 and Full Function Engineering 2ndary fuel rail upgrade with ID 2200cc injectors and bringing your car to a tuner that is comfortable setting up the many safety features of the Haltech ECU.
or
Run stock catalytic, stock airbox and stock ECU at 250rwhp and 10psi.
or
Run specifically ROM tuned stock ECU for your car with highflow cat to limit boost creep to 14psi.
Side note- fuel octane.
10psi boost with stock/ROM tuned ECU safety measures on pump gas is fine. With stock twins only way to retain 10psi is stock cat or likewise restrictive cat (not a high flow unit).
At 14psi boost the tuner at Knightsports in Japan cautioned me not to use under 95 octane fuel even with the stock ROM tuned ECU and its knock control (which no aftermarket ECU has).
If you boost creep to 17psi even with 2200cc secondary injectors providing enough fuel you will require around 100 octane fuel to be safe.
Yes, plenty of others have run 14psi or even 17psi on pump fuel.
Yes, Plenty of others have blown their rotaries with detonation and blamed the rotary engine.
My thought is that when you change out the fuel rails, you're leaving stock-fd and preservation concepts behind. That's fine, if it's what you want. It would certainly open up the cars potential. PowerFC is plenty fine. Haltech Elite is getting lots of positive press, if you're committed to doing it right.
I'd rather keep a restrictive exhaust than fight boost creep on the stock turbos.
I agree with Rotary Performance and I will provide my reasoning.
The Walbro 255 HP fuel pump.
I went through a couple on my FC before I switched to Bosch Motorsports '044 (now hard to find a real one of), so for my low mile FD retaining otherwise stock fuel system I went with the Denso "Supra" pump.
The 220occ 2ndary injectors.
Good idea Rotary Performance. As stated, I have retained my stock fuel system/injectors besides the addition of a new reliable slightly upgraded fuel pump. I am running a Knightsports ROM tuned stock ECU that was tuned for my mods.
When I tried straight through exhaust as you have I had fuel cut from hitting maximum injector duty cycle at 17psi of boost creep.
Your Racing Beat catback may provide enough restriction that boost creep is kept in the nominally safe 14psi boost region, but you are literally one cold night away from more boost creep.
Now, with the PFC I believe they could program in an overboost fuel cut to keep you within the limits of the stock injectors, but they have probably done that in the past many times only to have customers with the commander disable the fuel cut when it becomes a nuisance.and then blow their motors.
And on to some unsolicited advice.
You have a beautiful low mile FD that looks like it is in great condition.
Why are you putting in the ancient Apex'i Power FC and worrying about the cost of 2ndary injectors.
I recommend a Plug and Play Haltech 2500 and Full Function Engineering 2ndary fuel rail upgrade with ID 2200cc injectors and bringing your car to a tuner that is comfortable setting up the many safety features of the Haltech ECU.
or
Run stock catalytic, stock airbox and stock ECU at 250rwhp and 10psi.
or
Run specifically ROM tuned stock ECU for your car with highflow cat to limit boost creep to 14psi.
Side note- fuel octane.
10psi boost with stock/ROM tuned ECU safety measures on pump gas is fine. With stock twins only way to retain 10psi is stock cat or likewise restrictive cat (not a high flow unit).
At 14psi boost the tuner at Knightsports in Japan cautioned me not to use under 95 octane fuel even with the stock ROM tuned ECU and its knock control (which no aftermarket ECU has).
If you boost creep to 17psi even with 2200cc secondary injectors providing enough fuel you will require around 100 octane fuel to be safe.
Yes, plenty of others have run 14psi or even 17psi on pump fuel.
Yes, Plenty of others have blown their rotaries with detonation and blamed the rotary engine.
I appreciate the feedback solicited or not. I am just trying to get it right. I realize I need to go back and correct my build sheet as I have an incorrect statement and a very important one indeed. My “midpipe” is only a “down pipe”. Big difference in that I still have the very restrictive exhaust coupled with the RB cat back. This should prevent the over boost or boost creep problem.
I would shutter to think of starting over on sourcing certain parts all over again when all I was out to do is make the car more reliable and replace parts that were known to either be a problem or fail causing bigger issues for me. Most of your thoughts/concerns are about fuel, boost and exhaust which I assume may be derived from the bad info I had about the mid pipe. Take that away and it then boils down to personal choice on fuel pump and tuner brand doesn’t it? Your not the only one to mention the Walboro not holding up...
My thought is that when you change out the fuel rails, you're leaving stock-fd and preservation concepts behind. That's fine, if it's what you want. It would certainly open up the cars potential. PowerFC is plenty fine. Haltech Elite is getting lots of positive press, if you're committed to doing it right.
I'd rather keep a restrictive exhaust than fight boost creep on the stock turbos.
I still am choked up with factory exhaust and cleaning up my info here. I am very appreciative of the feedback I am getting and I think I am staying with the course I have been on. FWIW, I may select a different fuel pump and gather some more intel on what I was told about the HKS Twin Power not being so great,for now, and see if I can get a tuner to work with what I got. Whomever does it needs to have confidence in what we are working with.
You have to ask yourself what your objectives are. Are your objectives a laundry list of parts, or a certain level of performance?
If you like the stock twins and are looking to bump the power a little, you can safely get to ~ 300 rwhp with the following mods:
- PFC
- DP
- Hi-Flow Cat
- Exhaust
- Denso Fuel Pump with upgraded wiring
- HKS TP
- Larger SMIC
- Stock clutch may be ok, but is borderline at 300
You don't need to upgrade the stock injectors (if they are working to spec), but you should port the wastegate with a hi-flow cat. You may have boost issue deleting the cat altoughther, even with a ported wastegate. AI is recomended as a safety measure, but that will drop your HP (unless you tune for AI, but then you loose the safety feature)
Above 300, you really need to upgrade the turbos and then will need a new fuel system, ignition (and possibly ECU depening on how high you want to go and safeguards you want). Drivetrain issues start coming into play above 300, esp when you start getting over 400
Currently, i'm running the above list of mods and find it is fine for the street.
If you still have your stock catalytic section and plan to retain that then I think your plan to keep the stock fuel systlem/injectors with just an upgraded pump is sound.
Boost creep from removing this exhaust restriction is the real issue you have to tune around on a stock twins FD.
You have to ask yourself what your objectives are. Are your objectives a laundry list of parts, or a certain level of performance?
If you like the stock twins and are looking to bump the power a little, you can safely get to ~ 300 rwhp with the following mods:
- PFC
- DP
- Hi-Flow Cat
- Exhaust
- Denso Fuel Pump with upgraded wiring
- HKS TP
- Larger SMIC
- Stock clutch may be ok, but is borderline at 300
You don't need to upgrade the stock injectors (if they are working to spec), but you should port the wastegate with a hi-flow cat. You may have boost issue deleting the cat altoughther, even with a ported wastegate. AI is recomended as a safety measure, but that will drop your HP (unless you tune for AI, but then you loose the safety feature)
Above 300, you really need to upgrade the turbos and then will need a new fuel system, ignition (and possibly ECU depening on how high you want to go and safeguards you want). Drivetrain issues start coming into play above 300, esp when you start getting over 400
Currently, i'm running the above list of mods and find it is fine for the street.
I’m looking to stay with the twins and keep my list of existing parts. I appreciate the feedback as it is building my confidence with what I have already done. The goal of 350 was a target but is flexible with reliability as the priority.
Originally Posted by BLUE TII
If you still have your stock catalytic section and plan to retain that then I think your plan to keep the stock fuel systlem/injectors with just an upgraded pump is sound.
Boost creep from removing this exhaust restriction is the real issue you have to tune around on a stock twins FD.
Music to my ears! Helps to have good information posted doesn’t it..
I'm going to assume you also have a downpipe?
The Walbro 255 HP fuel pump.
I went through a couple on my FC before I switched to Bosch Motorsports '044 (now hard to find a real one of), so for my low mile FD retaining otherwise stock fuel system I went with the Denso "Supra" pump.
My Walboro took a dump after a couple of years of ownership, it was then that I found out I wasn't alone. Switched to Denso and never looked back.
Originally Posted by BLUE TII
Why are you putting in the ancient Apex'i Power FC...
Agreed and even though the Power FC is tried and true, it is old as dirt. There are much better options out there today and if I was looking to buy a new stand alone ECU I would not be looking at the Apex'i unit.
For comparison sake, same diameter for the most part at 25” but definitely wider. When the wheels are turned knock to knock the inner fender well almost touches.
Nice weather to install a fuel pump in a 7 today. I am blessed to work with a great example of an unmolested and uncrusted up car. Everything came apart pretty well for its age.
Once the lid was off and the ground and harness was unplugged it was on to pulling the spring tensioners off the hoses and bolts off the hose supports so they can be pushed out of the way. Next push and pull the hoses off before pulling the deck screws out.
Once the new pump is in place just reverse the order making sure the old gasket is in place correctly. Make sure your ground is clean. Mine was perfect after all these years.
01-05-19, 05:07 PM
