turbine

iTrader: (1)

back in February i sent Brian / bdc motor sports all my irons and entire rotating assembly for balancing, cutting for 3 mm apex seals and a famous BDC half bridge.

when i spoke to Brian on the phone before i sent him my engine he told me there was about a 2 week turn around time.
well the weeks started rolling by. then a month then 2 months.
his phone was shut off and he wouldn't respond to my emails or private messages.
finally i got an email telling me that he was deathly ill and but was feeling better and my parts were almost done. so i continued to be patient eventually i got my parts back.

when i opened the boxes everything looked great except for the rotors. they were still 2 mm. i called Brian and he apologize and said he would try to make it up to me by pressing in new bearings when i sent them back.

something told me i shouldn't have sent them back but i did. as a matter of fact i
2nd day aired them to him, with a 2nd day air return slip (over $300) because i was now 2 months behind on my build.

guess what happened. Brian didn't answer his phone or return my emails again.
about a month and a half into this i get an email telling me that his machinist accidentally machined my rotors to 3.3 mm Whoops. but Brian found me a new pair and supposedly they weigh the same as my old ones, so my engine will still be balanced. YEAH RIGHT.

BRIAN I WANT MY ROTORS BACK I WANT MY MONEY BACK FOR THE MACHINING AND THE BALANCING.

AND I DON'T WANT IT 2 MONTHS FROM NOW.

you have the worst customer service i have ever encountered

BDC

I'm definitely not a liar and a thief. Here's the story:

I received Tyler's rotating assembly (rotors, counterweights, etc.) as well as his housings. I cut his housings for bridgeports, had the assembly balanced, but I forgot to have the rotors cut for 3mm. It was my fault because when I initially took the order and received payment (about $700 from what I recall total) I didn't make a log of everything that needed to be done. I sent everything back and then received a PM from Tyler which then resulted in a call. I couldn't believe I'd forgotten to have the rotors cut even though he'd paid for them. So, I apologized and asked that I could make it up to him. Since Tyler was having new bearings pressed in his gears and rotors, I offered to save him a bit of hassle by doing that myself along with cleaning up the rotors. He agreed. Once the gears and rotors showed back up here, I cleaned the rotors and gears up then pressed the new bearings in them. I then took the rotors to the machinist. This was before my trip to Canada. First, the machinist took way too long. Secondly, when I went and picked them up, they were over-cut; all 6 grooves. The rotors were ruined. In total, his downtime has been atleast 3 months because of this; perhaps longer. I've since scrapped using that machinist for rotor cutting.

For those that are close to me, this is the pair of rotors in question that were over-cut to 3.33mm that I was and am still angry about.

Tyler, I haven't received the engine for tear-down that has the rotors I'm giving you in replacement of the ones that were messed up at the machinist. That's why I haven't responded yet. I've been waiting for the guy to get it himself for me to get a hold of it. I was hoping to have already had it here this past week but it hasn't. I'm trying again tomorrow in the early afternoon. They're the same series and compression. Like the other rotors, I'll clean them up to spotless, press in the new bearings, and then send those back, along with the gears w/ new bearings, as well as a refund in a money order to you for labour on the balancing and the cutting that you've paid for in the amount of $425. If your original overnight shipping label is expired, I'll pay for overnight myself. You've got it all in writing right here in my response.

Given that this is the only thing I do for a living, I've got absolutely no incentive in the world to rip anyone off or perform bad work. You've got a legitimate complaint, feel like you've not gotten what you've paid for, so you get your money back and an apology for the unintended downtime; no problem here. Good luck with the rest of the assembly and please let me know that the rotors and gears arrive in good condition once they're received.

B

jweather73

Wow, Turbine.... that's not a very nice thing to say about someone. I've known Brian for over 15 years, and I can tell you he's NONE of those things you've called him.

What I can tell you is this -- you need to choose your words more carefully. Sure, I completely understand how pissed off you are and I'm sure just about anyone in your position would be too...but is this service complete? Has Brian told you "I'm done and I won't do anything else" ?? Sure doesn't sound like it to me. I mean look at your own words:

========
"...but Brian found me a new pair and supposedly they weigh the same as my old ones, so my engine will still be balanced."
========

Does that sound like a liar? Does that sound like a thief? If he was lying to you, then you'll obviously know when the rotors come back and are not the same weight as your old ones. If he's a thief, then he would probably keep everything and perhaps resell the parts for profit. But that isn't Brian. Do you realize that as long as he's been in business, you are the ONLY one that feels this way? He is in the top highest percentile of anyone out there that does this for a living--liars and thieves don't get there.

Maybe you should apologize for attacking someone's character like you have out of nothing but anger and wait and see what he does to try and rectify this situation. It's not his fault if the machinist takes a lot longer than he normally does to do work, and it's definitely not Brian's fault when the machinist screws up the parts. But what did he do? He immediately tried to fix the problem. He didn't call you and say "Oops, sorry, they screwed up, so you're out of luck and I won't help you fix it....no... he has worked to resolve the matter.

Being a fellow business owner myself, I can tell you that I've been in his situation before and I've done things quite the same way as far as not calling people back when I should have. Me personally, I was embarassed and didn't know exactly what to say to the customer...but eventually I did talk to them--and I fixed the problem... I was honest with the customer about what happened. And you know what? Not only are they one of my best customers still to this day, but also they have recommended me to more people than anyone else! Now will that happen here? It sure doesn't sound like it to me just because you sound like a hot-head that shoots his mouth off when things don't go his way. But had you waited to find out what the end result was going to be, then maybe, just maybe, you would have been more than happy with the end results of the work Brian did for you. Maybe you still will be...only time will tell. But in the meantime, cool your jets, give him the room to fix the problem, and you'll find out just how much you were wrong in attacking his character and his impecable reputation in the Rotary Engine world.

GTRay

I'm certainly going to come to Brian's defense in this case. I've known Brian since about 1995. I've seen Brian go completely out of his way just to help out a fellow enthusiast. Hell, in 2000 brian even went so far as to send me one of his reprogrammed ECU's at NO CHARGE for my TII when I told him the mods i had on the car and he didn't want to see me blow it up. This was before he was running his business to the extent he is now and something that I will always remember. Brian has been nothing but kind and patient with his help and advice in my experience and many more will say the same.

Not many people in this community are held in the same regard as Brian Cain. I agree that this is an unfortunate incident but I can also sense that Brian will do everything in his power to make the situation right.

Ray

charlies7

iTrader: (4)

I suggest scrapping the machinest all together, seems like nothing but headaches and hes unexperianced. As far as I know this is the second time that you are taking a hit from his mistakes and thats not fair to you. BTW, expect MY rotor back sometime this week, sorry for the delay.

smg944

iTrader: (34)

brian is a good guy always willing to help. things dont always go perfectly so you cant just go out there calling him a liar and a theif.

btw.

brian, i am here if you need any machining in a timely manner.

BDC

I've not had this problem with him before but I am still nonetheless scrapping him. You should've been a fly on the wall when I looked at the rotors prior to boxing them up. He's not the same guy who I have do my balancing work. Two different guys. The headaches with messed up parts were caused by outside machinists. Ultimately I'm responsible however because I'm the one being paid.

B

AlexG13B

iTrader: (7)

+1 on BDC, i havent known him for 15 yrs or anything. he doesnt even know me from a tree in the woods but he hasnt been VERY VERY helpful to me and hasnt not once asked me for ANYTHING.
BDC may be many things but a liar or thief isnt one of them, he has dealt with countless people over the yrs (a few i know) and has shown a great attitude towards his work and the people he deals with.

ALNY93R1

iTrader: (12)

Brian is definetly not a liar or a thief, I had no issues with my irons and he was 100% honest with me. I will continue to recommend him to others.

turbine

iTrader: (1)

this i why i am calling Brian a liar.
2 weeks ago he sent me an email with this in it.

"I've already got another pair of rotors I'm going to have cut at a different place that are in better shape than the ones you shipped here. They're also the same weight as the ones you've shipped so there will be no hassle with the assembly balance."

this is a lie, you said in your post above that you are still waiting on the engine for tear down and how could you possably know they weigh the same. DONT LIE TO ME.

as far as i am concerned you are ripping me off.
i own 3 business, i deal with people all day long, if i did this to any of my customers they would drop me in a heartbeat.
i have had bad things happen in business even things similar to this but the difference between me and you is i communicated with my customers i didn't leave them hanging.
when you take someone's money and you live across the country and you are suppose to send them something or perform a service for them but then you don't return phone calls or emails, it feels like a typical internet rip off scheme. something we are probably all too familiar with.

Brian, your port work was beautiful but everything else was the opposite.

Natey

iTrader: (19)

Y'know when you go to Taco Bell, how you're not supposed to heckle the guy behind the counter until AFTER you get your food? That's probably a good theory right about now.

BDC

No, it's not a lie. I've got no reason to lie especially considering that I'm fixing this out of my own pocket to the tune of quite a bit of money. The rotors I'm replacing your ruined ones with are from the same series engine so they are the same weight/compression. When I got the other rotors back and saw they were ruined, I called up a few people and found someone who had a good condition engine they'd let me buy the rotors from. I didn't have any here so I was in a real pinch: I have a customer who's already perturbed with me as it is as well as I've got to deal with getting money back from a machinist whom I paid to ruin my customer's stuff. I'm not going to go out of my way to use a bum set of rotors to replace yours; that makes no sense. I originally was going to have them cut at a different place (Ari at RP offered to do them when I told him of my situation) but then you told me in your response email that you didn't feel confident in the work and to just send them (the replacement rotors) along w/ the gears back to you. Your response email was to my email (part that you've quoted up there) that I'd sent after I found the engine. I told you I had them; I just didn't tell you where they were coming from.

Agreed, in principle. Maybe sometimes I forget or don't consider the fact that people I've never met nor ever seen are sending me, a guy that lives several states away, alot of money (in some cases thousands). I'm used to being on this end of the deal and not so much as a customer anymore.

However, generally speaking, I don't think I've left you utterly hanging. Even though I didn't respond to your last email (quite frankly, I was embarassed and was trying to get this engine here, torn down, and get the replacement rotors cleaned up and ready to be sent back as quickly as possible), it's not as if you were left without any inclination whatsoever as to what I was doing. I'd already responded to your "send me back my stuff" email by both asking you how to do a refund (without coming to a total amount; I did that on my own) as well as what I was doing here. I made it clear that you were getting money back and that I was replacing your rotors with a better set, un-cut, but cleaned up with new rotor bearings pressed.

That's quite the dichotomy. In my defense, the liar and the thief would not only grind your housings out to hell without any care but he'd also not be up-front with the problem with the ruined rotors; he'd just send them back, never tell you a word about them, then let you discover it and be 10 times angrier on engine build day.

B

BDC

He has a legitimate complaint. If he chooses to gripe or yell or scream or tell me I'm the worst person in the universe, it won't have any effect on what I'm doing here. I told him I'm refunding him $425 as well as sending him back a replacement pair of rotors, cleaned to my normal standards and with pressed bearings, along with his gears and new bearings, regardless. I don't spit in the food I make.

B

jweather73

And for those of us that literally have eaten the food that you do make (seaweed Ramen for example) we're all thankful for that!

BDC

Looks like I can't edit my response post to you Tyler about the balancing comment and the charge that I'm lying. Here's the response I just typed up:

Edit:
As far as the balancing comment I'd made, I stand by it. Having the balancing re-done would be, in my opinion, a waste of money and, even though I'm refunding your money and will essentially be out on my end since the labour was already done, it's still a waste to pursue. The rotors are the same weight, #1. #2, the balancing work done on every assembly I've ever had this (other) machinist do, on a dynamic balancer, has always shown that the front counterweight is the piece that's too heavy. In the case of my own engine last year, it was 51 grams too heavy up front. He's never had to do work on the lathe with either rotor or with the rear counterweight/flywheel. The opinion I've given you regarding that is also re-inforced with the fact that the pair of rotors I'm sending you are from an original engine and not a mix 'n match set. If it were the case that they were rotors from two different engines, then I would've told you something different. Consider this -- I'm already out of pocket a few hundred dollars on this at the least and I'm not only telling you but also the rest of the world, in black and white, what I'm doing. With that, why on Earth would I lie about balancing even though I'm refunding your money for it?

B

Hitokiri_Gensai

iTrader: (2)

Im sorry but i dont even know this guy Brian, but already i can tell hes a good guy. His replies here are well put together and so far he seems like hes gone out of his way to fix his mistakes.

Honestly, i have to say, i think before you go flying off the handle you have to consider that in this world **** DOES happen. And yes, something happened, but so far, i can tell hes gone far out of his way to refund you and help in anyway he can. Im sorry but screaming and yelling and accusing people of lying is NOT the way to get things done.

peachykeenwight

Turbine, rest assured that Brian will treat you well and get the work done as quickly as possible and you'll end up with a great motor. Those of us who know him know that he would never lie to or steal ANYTHING from a customer of his. Unless it's a Knightsports hood or a pair of drag radials sitting out in front of some vacant house in Fort Worth.

That ain't Brian's style.

PS: I just moved in to the Seattle area, I'd love to see the car. Sounds like it's going to be a beaut.

Sorry for the threadjack.

EJayCe996

Ah, so that's where the hell you disappeared to, Peachy

BDC

I went ahead and took several photos today of the old rotors (being overcut) as well as the replacement ones. Since the question of my veracity, sincereity, and work ethic has been raised, I've decided to go ahead and share them here to show the rest of you guys what I've run into. I'm not lying about a thing; this is what happened.

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/Misc/Rotors_Gears/

The first three photos are of the pair of gears and the original rotors, as shipped to me, after cleaning and with new bearings. At this point, the rotors were not cut. They were sent to the machinist looking like this.

The next 5 photos, 5942-5948, are of the rotors after receiving them back from the machinist. They were massively over-cut.

5949, 5950, and 5952 are three more photos of the original rotors after being overcut.

5939 throughout the end are the remainder of photos of the replacement rotors. They are out of an 87 Turbo block and are of the same series, weight, and compression ratio. Shy of any fancy machine work done at a balancer, these are the only type that can be replaced in lieu of the original rotors. One of the rotors from this replacement pair is nearly 100% perfect. The second one, however, while perfectly functional to use, has some minour pitting. It's more prevelant on its gear side where it's about half to the degree on the jacketted side. The camera can make it appear as if there's dings or gashes but it's a faux pas of the picture; they're smooth with no dips in the metal.

B

AlexG13B

iTrader: (7)

proof in the pudding

turbine

iTrader: (1)

i did not create this situation, all of this is direct result of brians inability to communicate with me. i now have the answers i was after, i am sorry that it took a thread of this nature but i saw nothing happening and this was how i was feeling.

i am done with this thread let it die
hopefully i get my rotors back in good condition and we can put this behind us

fc3schick87

iTrader: (1)

ya. bdc will take good care of you. dont worry. trust me, trust him! he never lets a customer be unsatisfied. he'll set it right just give him a chance!!!

he's a great guy!

Gouki7

+1 +1

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

So rather than waste that clean set of over milled rotors, why not get a set of those 3.5mm hurley seals and try to run those and their cornerseals (if they still make them)? They might work okay for a stock or low boost engine, and it would be a way to save the rotors.

OF course we all know hurley seals are shitty, but I'd do that before I'd throw them out.

84stock

iTrader: (5)

I think this comment was worded sooooo well! I too had an issue with waiting a long time for a build and communication issues with a different builder, felt screwed, got screwed, and completely understand the frustration. BUT, I shared my frustration with a trusted few rather than the world and tried to understand "his" perspective as well. I have yet to publicly chastise this builder for the time frame, the incident, or my engine failure. However I did return to a more trusted builder for my new engine. I am confident the end will justify the means and you will have a great engine The few months that passed will be long forgotten when you listen to the brap of his bridge and even moreso once the engine is broken in and you let'r rip.