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I have no horse in this game and don't even live near these shops. But, everyone on the internet has an opinion, and so do I.
I have heard positive and negative things over the years about Banzai and they seem to equal themselves out. The overall complaint seems to end up being their pricing. But, atleast the jobs look like they are being done right. If I was in that area and wanted stuff done right, I'd probably make them my first choice.
As for this build itself - WOW! In almost every aftermarket performance market you find customers going to shops to have work done because either they don't have the time/resources to do it themselves, or they don't have the ability.
It looks like Elite Rotary really screwed this customer! Unfortunately, being impressed with painted and clean parts is dangerous. The points that Banzai brought up are valid and concerning. If you can see those problems from a couple non-detailed pictures, I would be scared to know what you'd see upon further detailed inspection!
I like to think that the true testament to a shop's work is in the results of their labor. Has this car been taken to any track or dyno? Let's see some logs that show the performance of all the major systems on the car: HP, Air/Fuel Ratio, Cooling, Oiling, etc.
I think that if you were able to show logs of all that, it would be far more impressive than pictures of a clean engine bay.
I do not know who would be complaining about our pricing, I know it is not the customers that bring their cars to our shop. Our rebuild prices are one of the most competitive out there, we build over 100 engines each year for people all over the world. Our shop rate is $100/hr. , same as others that don't provide nearly the same quality of service. We have not raised the prices on our Banzai products in 6 years, and come to market with new products yearly.
That being said, we are a real bricks and mortar company and not a website being run out of someone's bedroom, so we are not going to be beat the prices on a every Greddy or HKS part, where there is very little margin to begin with (luckily it is not our core business). So if that is the complaint, there is nothing we can do about it. There is always going to be someone on ebay selling some part for less, those same people are not able to give any customer service or expert advise. It is amazing how often we get calls from people wanting us to tell them how to install a part they bought from some other site or ebay.
I think Rich said it best, just the other day;
Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
Not pointing this at any one person in particular, but allow me to get up on my Soapbox:
It seems like in today's day and age, all that many people care about is 'Low Price.' They don't care about service, knowledge, dependability, quickness of delivery, establishing a relationship with a trusted advisor. To me this is all very valuable.
I think personally that 'Low Price' as the Number 1 buying decision is dangerous. I've had many people over the years come to me for all sorts of advice regarding mods and parts, then buy elsewhere in order to save a buck. To me, that is complete horseshit, and I've changed the way I deal with people accordingly. I value my time very much, and have learned not to waste it on those who don't value my time as much as I do.
You are correct that it is dangerous, when people are impressed by painted or shiny parts. We currently have a 20B RX8 in the shop, that the current owner was mesmerized by the shiny parts and did not look past them at the finer details of the car. It is a basket case with a blown (low compression) engine. We are reworking everything.
Last edited by Banzai-Racing; 01-12-16 at 06:47 AM.
Well then...I answered a question on a forum based on my experience. So did a few other people. I researched and made a decision about my engine with Howard, then did the same for the car's build and where it would be done while I was deployed. Other people can do the same.
I have gotten the car back and driven it about 60 feet from where I offloaded it from the trailer into the garage. Due to the weather, my job, and old, dry-rotted tires that were on the car before it was stored in 2003, it's hard to say when I'll get new rubber and start putting break-in miles on it, although I've started it and brought it up to temperature several times in the cold snap of weather we've had. There will be no dyno sheets or other chest-thumping put up by me, and the car will not be tuned for anything beyond break-in until the spring or summer anyway. After that, if the car blows up, overheats, or suffers some other disastrous event, then some folks can laugh at me, say "I told you so" and we will all go on with our lives. Conversely, if the car performs as was my intention, then the work will speak for itself. I think each shop will go about such a build, each in their own way. What's more, if a shop has no problem working jointly with an established and respected engine builder (and that's the builder I wanted for my engine), then, to me, it strengthens the project.
I had a budget at the outset of the project. True, I exceeded that initial outlook, but I made alterations to the goal while it was ongoing with some decisions adding cost while others tried to cut it, and all of the work and parts were itemized over the course of 8 pages of invoice. The car was inspected and things that needed to be repaired or replaced were repaired or replaced, including things I hadn't anticipated. I wanted the A/C, power steering, and ABS deleted. I didn't want 550hp, but if the engine was going to all come apart and go back together making more power than before, there were ancilliary parts and systems the car needed. Howard chose a cutting-edge turbo for me, the capabilities of which far exceeded my goals. Still, I didn't want a museum piece. I wanted durability, reliability, and functionality, and I'm not impressed with flashy-shiny. I need to learn to drive this car again. If it leaves me happy, that's about all that matters, and I'll quietly tip my hat to Howard and Sal after each trouble-free drive because they will have done me right.
So, yes--I agree with Banzai. "Buyer beware." That goes in just about any walk of life. Have I gone out on a limb by going with a shop that I barely knew, but came well-recommended? Perhaps, but that's the trust I placed in Howard. If my car has any number of issues--the ones listed by you or others--then shame on me and shame on the guys I trusted (and paid) to work on this for me, and word will get out because my disappointment after the time and money spent will be tremendous. However, if that time and those disasters never arrive, then I've done OK. In the meantime, people can take my story for whatever it's worth and make their own decisions.
i referred Mark to Sal as well as another shop i work with and Mark made his decision with which i am comfortable. while lacking acorn nuts, i am delighted w the outcome and of course the real outcome remains to be determined which it will.
a reasonable observation has been made about the retention of the stock MAP sensor.
the car was purpose built to do double duty, street and track days/road racing. the FD when properly set up will wipe the floor with most cars at the 400 rwhp mark. i, as well as Fritz Flynn, and many others can back this up.
the 2016 variety of Borg Warner S300 SXE is a perfect fit, state of the art, especially when combined w my ports, turbo manifold and a 60 mm Tial wastegate.
a stock MAP sensor reliably reads boost at one pressure ratio. pls note the compressor map below. the red line is 14.7 manifold pressure. note the line extends to 67.5 pounds per minute.
67.5 pounds per minute = 977 CFM = 509 rotary rwhp. for the customer's app the MAP sensor is a fit. of course there is nothing wrong w doing a 3 BAR sensor but in this case it is not needed and just adds to the cost.
the SXE 62 may be able to make 580 at max flow but this has nothing to do w this build.
at some point in the spring it is my expectation that Nelson Siverio (RRRdynotuning FB) will tune Mark's beast.
Nelson tuned Sal's FD last fall and made 614 SAE hp at 25/26 psi and it is running strong. i am hoping Nelson will get a wack at all my CPR motors as he is truly special. BTW, while Sal's motor is mine, i credit Sal for a great deal of the success of his car which has collected a large amount of high value scalps.
as Mark comments, it all remains to be determined and i am looking confidently forward to it.
Adracer/Mark, go grab the water pump pulley, you will be able to spin it by hand, slipping right by the belt. There is virtually zero belt contact, this is a terrible setup. It has been well covered what this will result in. There are more problems in your engine bay that I did not list. Post up some actual detailed pictures of the work and chances are I will point out a dozen or more blatant problems. Based of several PMs I have received recently, I would suggest you do a baseline compression test right now, since you have only driven it 60ft.
Howard do not try to minimalize all the issues down to acorn nuts and a map sensor. The fact that you didn't notice all the problems is very telling.
I can only guess it is a business strategy, one guy does the rebuild, a different the install, and yet another for the tuning. This way when things go bad everyone can point fingers at the other guy and accept zero blame, leaving the customer holding the bag.
Since we are actually a FULL SERVICE SHOP and build the car from start to finish, including tuning, there are no problems. We also know what works and what does not. We never send a car out of our shop without a valid break in tune that is completely drivable. I would not dream of sending someone home with a car that needs to be tuned by someone else just to break in the engine.
We have already determined that Sam/Sal is a liar, thief and scammer, now we know that he is charging professional rates for amateur level half *** installs. Just because people pay someone to do something does NOT make them good at what they have been hire to do.
Also let me say this, I have not been participating in this thread to drum up business. We currently have 15 customer cars in the shop for rebuilds and modifications, some from as far away as Florida. We are currently scheduling cars in for April/May. I have been involved to warn people, do your research.
Sal/Sam has always relied on other shops, he has no experience, which is evident from the pictures posted.
Last edited by Banzai-Racing; 01-13-16 at 11:52 AM.
Planning of making a trip up from FL for tuning? If you look through the dyno gallery you will see I am most adept at the PFC and Microtech, but we have some Haltech & Motec customers also.
The Mustang is a far superior tuning tool, the Dynojet is only good for supplying unrealistically high number. There is a reason that the Mustang Dyno cost 3X what a Dynojet cost. The Dynojet has an optional eddy current brake, but most shops do not want to spend the extra money. If a dyno is not load bearing, it is basically useless as a tuning tool.
2/week would be an average, there are weeks where I do nothing but stack engines, we will ship out 10-15 shortblocks in that week. We obviously do not install every engine we build. We actually have a few Mazda dealers that ship us engines on a regular basis, since they can only get 13B-MSP engines from the Reman Facility. We also have several race teams that we build for. We are always super busy, but we have great scheduling.
I am, but you did not directly answer my question. I did not ask if you deal with other vendors. I already know that happens as a shop, as i believe no business operation is a one man show.
Just wanted to confirm the information you posted, that's all.
I think you are confused. We build the engines for the Mazda dealers and race teams. You specifically asked if I build 2 engines every week. The answer is no, there are weeks that I do not build any, then others that I build 10-15, so 2/week would be an average, which is exactly what I said. There are weeks that I spend 5 solid days on the dyno. Banzai is not a one person operation, you can call and talk to Elaine any time during normal operational hours.
Last edited by Banzai-Racing; 01-13-16 at 05:52 PM.
the potential "bearing failure" may resemble the above picture rather than the front main bearing.
the thread is IMO a fair representation of the Pineapple idler. some have had good results and some have experienced idler bearing failure. looking carefully at the shared experiences one probably would conclude if you are going to really use your car it would be prudent to pass on it.
as shared in the thread high and perhaps sustained RPM is the culprit. hey if you are just styling in your FD by all means bolt it on.
before you do consider:
at 8500 RPM the idler pulley is spinning at over 14,000 RPM and is in a high load condition. take a close look at the (broken) bearing cage. it is blued from excessive heat. and of course part of it is missing.
Pineapple has apparently upgraded the bearing however:
"I've got the pulley... and Have Swapped the bearing twice so far. And Guess what?....I started the car yesterday with the "New" advised to use bearing and heard that Defening horrifyingly loud squeeling. I've heard people using it without issue.. And I'd like to think i pay particular attention to how much tension is on my belts and make sure that it's never too much... but I threw in the towel..."
Aaron Parker
"Yep, belt tension was fine and had .4" of defection on a new belt which should be lower than stock"
OP
in the real world, occasional manufacturing defects happen but having raced seriously and successfully all my life i know the value of not creating problems when there is no need.
let me reiterate about this specific build...
Mark's FD was built to have fun on the street and WIN on the track. road racing is the most challenging usage of an FD and HEAT is challenge number ONE.
my engines make peak torque at 6450 and are happy at 8950. given lots of sustained RPM and.. from a read of the thread the item has no place on Mark's car for Mark's app.
still not convinced?
Fritz Flynn has probably logged more road racing miles on his FD than anyone on this board..
"Yep
It's the high rpm
Drive these idlers hard and they fall apart. Fortunately it didn't happen while you were at the track etc.....
If I was you I'd get your new one from Pineapple and promptly sell it to someone who likes adding things to their car for cough cough reliability reasons LOL
Don't use them and don't recommend them. There is plenty of tension with a stock under drive. I've been tracking my car hard for 10 years with stock wp, stock underdrive and greddy style water pump/alt pulley's. When you start to hear a squeal that goes away quickly after start up there is a good chance you a need a new belt or water pump pulley is worn so replace one or both and keep on revving.
Bottomline: An aftermarket water pump or water pump idler pulley's are not parts anyone needs"
Fritz Flynn
i switched my FD to what Fritz runs in 1999. for four years i ran the Ferrari Club of North America's annual event at Brainerd Int'l Raceway in Northern Minnesota. Brainerd is a neat and unusual track as the main straight is 6000 ft long and turn one is a banked wide radius 90 degree turn that i enter at 160 mph. i was never passed in the four years. ( as background Brainerd is on the CENDIV SCCA schedule and i had the track record in GT3 and have won a bunch of races at the track)
my point is that i NEVER had any overheating problems at a very fast track. nor have i ever had any overheating during the 16 years i have ran the setup.
so Mark's car is just fine.
that all said, as in any mod you do need to understand it and pull maintenance.
i have posted somewhere in this forum that such a setup IS a maintenance item.
i have suggested that the water pump pulley be replaced when the striations show wear. probably every year or two. no big deal, they are around $30.
belt tension is important. too little you get slip.
too much you can actually pull the nose of the crank upwards which pressures the main bearing and it will eventually show copper at 11 o'clock.
FD's even properly fixtured require understanding and attention. if you are either disinterested or not capable of understanding this need buy a Buick.
just to finish, someone observed the belt adjustment is maxxed out on the car. it is not.
Howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 01-14-16 at 09:30 AM.
Funny that Jay stopped into this thread, installed an idler on his car in May 2012, still no problems.
Stock water pump pulley, NOT underdrive. No belt contact, there is a reason Greddy came out with pulleys years ago.
Couple idler bearing failures out of thousands, probably due to incorrect installation or overtightened belts. I have never seen a failure in person, just that picture in one thread.
Premature bearing failure, smog pump removed vs. kept. Over-tightened belts cause bearing wear. We see this all the time.
Originally Posted by NeoZ06
Do you tune Haltech ECU's yourself?
Already asked and answered.
Originally Posted by Banzai-Racing
I personally do all the dyno tuning myself on our in-house load bearing Mustang dyno. I also personally build every engine and install them.
Frankly it seems like you have a motive not yet shared. Are you planning on bringing your car up from Miami to northern Indiana for a tune? If so, I'm sure you have many other questions, why not call or at least email? Just wondering. That's all.
Also, i can ask as many questions as i'd like. I don't need private messages from a vendor telling me to stop asking.
If my question goes unanswered, i'd like to know why.
If this is the way customers get treated when dealing with you, then i will not do any business with you.
You came on this thread bashing others, which does not look professional. I know of a few shops that actually hold quarter mile world records in the rotary community, and they don't go around doing this.
Point is, we should remain neutral about what other shops do. Let their work do the talking.
In the end, the customer makes the final decision.
01-11-16, 03:49 PM
