Is this a 93-95 longblock? Bought from Kevin Landers, Rotary Resurrection.
01-14-11, 08:12 PM
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Is this a 93-95 longblock? Bought from Kevin Landers, Rotary Resurrection.
It’s time the rest of the forum is made aware of what has been going on. Sorry if it is long. But, it has been a long ordeal and it is only getting longer.
In 2006, I bought a rebuilt longblock that Kevin Landers of Rotary Resurrection advertised in the 93-95 parts section of RX-7 Club for $2900. [See 1_RX-7 Owners Club – FS_rebuilt longblock, silicone hoses, etc.pdf] I called to negotiate $100 off and to confirm that it is a 93-95 engine etc. After I paid for the engine, and 3 days after it was supposed to have already shipped, he called me and, using jargon that I didn’t understand, said that he was changing something. Because he already had my money, I didn't want to anger him by terminating the deal without allowing him a chance to explain. I asked him to call back during lunch so we could discuss it. He called back, but it was at the end of my lunch break. So, I asked him to call back after work, he agreed. Three days passed. Then he left a voicemail saying he shipped the engine, having never called back to explain what, if anything, was changed or to get my approval for any changes.
I felt like he had all the cards at that point, if he didn't already, because even if I rejected the engine, I would be out hundreds in shipping both ways. The only thing I could do was wait for the engine to arrive with the written contract that he said would be included. When it came in, the contract clearly stated "Longblock 93-95 engine" with nothing about any changes. [See 2_Rotary Resurrection Receipt 6-1-06 150dpi.PDF] A thorough inspection of the engine by a knowledgeable friend and me showed that nothing appeared to have been changed. I thought that Landers must have gotten scared and changed it back. No reasonable person would believe that a legitimate business would deliver a written contract that didn't represent what was actually delivered. So I kept the engine.
Fast forwarding to 2008, the turbos failed after only around 8k miles of engine use. Upon removal of the turbos and exhaust manifold, holes with molten metal shards were found inside of the engine’s exhaust sleeves.
3_13B_Exhaust_Port_030small.jpg
https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1295056943
4_13B_Exhaust_Port_031small.jpg
https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1295056943
The exhaust sleeves were melted completely through and some of the metal shards could be moved by finger. Upon further investigation, we discovered that the rotor housings were actually 89-91 NA housings instead of the 93-95 turbo ones that should be on a 93-95 engine. The L-shaped anti-whistle baffles were cut out to make it appear to function the same. The melting occurred only where these cuts were made. With the turbos on, there was no way to tell visually that the wrong housings were used unless the engine is taken apart. Here is a FAQ showing that the S5 NA and S6 turbo housings are identical on the outside.
http://www.banzai-racing.com/faq_housings_ID.htm
For a better understanding of what was cut, here is an example of a different set of S5 NA rotor housings that Kevin cut the exhaust sleeve baffles out of.
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/look-these-housings-350069/
By this time, I had forgotten about Kevin Landers trying to change the deal after he had my money. I contacted Kevin and gave him an opportunity to make this right without the implication of any fraud. I suggested that he just "forgot" what housings were used because the engine had sat for a while before he sold it. [SEE 5_Initial E-mails Complete 4-11-08.pdf] His response was, "yes I probably did just forget." But despite the pictures of damage only in the spots that he cut, he proclaimed, "So I would definitely, hands down, no doubt about it, have to disagree that this mod caused any problems (or will do so in the future)." Even with loose shards of metal coming from the exhaust sleeves, he said, "if the engine holds oil, coolant, and makes compression, I define it as good." Finally, he claimed, "But, the 89+ housings are identical to FD housings, only the sleeves vary."
To the contrary, here is the full list of all the differences between the two housings and links to older threads, some by Landers himself, discussing some of those differences:
* 89-91 NA has “anti-whistle” baffles in the exhaust sleeve. Also, the bottom of the exhaust sleeve is raised up into the exhaust stream a little. Most experts I have spoken with recommend replacing these sleeves instead of cutting/grinding the baffles out if you must use these housings on a 93-95 engine.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ght=smoothport
* 89-91 uses a Teflon coating on the trochoid face of the rotor housing. The 93+ uses a baked on carbon graphite coating because it “is superior to Teflon in its lubricating and bedding-in abilities.” –“RX-7”, Yamaguchi.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hlight=coating
* 93+ has a machined relief cut in the coolant passage near the leading spark plug hole to cool the hottest part of the engine to prevent detonation. This is especially important if the car is ever to be driven hard for long periods of time.
https://www.rx7club.com/race-car-tech-103/water-jacket-weave-porting-936073/#post10391369
* 93+ has a groove in the “legs” of the housing to help seal the oil pan area.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hlight=grooves
I offered to return the engine core only for a partial refund of $1900 minus 8% for 8k mi driven. He refused to even negotiate; citing his warranty policy of no refunds. He expected to hold me to a warranty statement that is part of a contract that he has already breached by failing to deliver what was agreed upon.
I filed a complaint against Kevin Landers / Rotary Resurrection (sometimes misspelled Rotary Ressurrection) with the Knoxville Better Business Bureau on July 10, 2008. [BBB Complaint Available] However, he stopped responding to them and they could not force him into arbitration because he is not a BBB member.
On December 23, 2008, after getting no response from legal demand letters, I filed a case in Osage County Small Claims Court because that is where I took delivery of the engine. I sued for $5990.38 for a refund of the engine plus shipping and installation/uninstallation cost. I appeared Pro Se. He hired a lawyer. On May 21, 2009, I won against their motion to dismiss on jurisdiction and venue partly because, although Landers claimed in an affidavit that mine was his only sale to a resident of Oklahoma, I found another resident who bought from him through the forums.
http://www1.odcr.com/detail.php?Case...85&County=057-
A few days before the actual trial on the merits of the case took place, Landers made a settlement offer that came up far short. We went to trial on June 23, 2009. My argument was that I did not receive what was agreed upon, a 93-95 engine. Ihor Huk of IR Performance and Chris Ott of Rotary Performance testified over the phone on my behalf. Ihor said that the engine delivered is not a 93-95 engine. Chris said the engine delivered is not a proper 93-95 engine.
Kevin Landers had affidavits from three engine builders. They all stated that "1989-91 Nonturbo rotor housings are equivalent to, and interchangeable with, 1993-95 rotor housings providing that the exhaust port sleeves are modified to remove the noise diffusers..." But two of them (who work at the same shop) both added on, "...these would be acceptable for a hybrid use engine, we do not market this type of engine in our automotive replacement program, but have seen it successfully done in past applications by our competitors." The Court was able to contact one of these two over the phone for cross-examination, during which Landers’ expert witness admitted that he would not sell the engine that Landers sold and claim it is a 93-95 engine without telling his customer about the modification. [Affidavits available]
Also notable, Kevin Landers of Rotary Resurrection tried to argue in his testimony essentially that the hot exhaust gasses would not touch the bottom of the exhaust sleeve where the melting occurred because the exhaust sleeve passages are angled upward. So, the sleeves couldn’t have melted due to hot exhaust gas. He said he had “proof” of this because he ran an engine without an exhaust manifold and observed the flames shooting out of the engine at an upward angle. I will let one of the engineers out there explain why that observation doesn’t prove this. Anyway, during my cross-examination of Mr. Landers, I pointed out (in question format) that the high pressure exhaust gasses will expand everywhere into the sleeve when the rotor apex starts to pass the exhaust port because of the pressure difference. He still exclaimed that there was no “force” to cause the exhaust to expand downward. I responded that pressure is a force.
On June 26th, 2009 the Court ruled that I was not provided the goods described in the offering. But, I wasn’t entitled to a refund because of the 8k mi and age of the engine. However, the court awarded me $3000 in damages for the difference in value between what I received and what I should have received, for labor costs to remove the non-conforming engine and install a conforming one, and $216 in court costs. [See 7_Small Claims Court Judgement 06-26-2009 72dpi.pdf]
After all of this, plus a year and a half of not being paid and a failed settlement negotiation, I still offered to settle for either: $2300 and the return of the engine core to him. OR Payment of the judgement amount, return of the engine core to him and a non-disclosure agreement. Luckily, for all of you, he chose neither option.
Several of the above statements are just as I testified to in court.
In 2006, I bought a rebuilt longblock that Kevin Landers of Rotary Resurrection advertised in the 93-95 parts section of RX-7 Club for $2900. [See 1_RX-7 Owners Club – FS_rebuilt longblock, silicone hoses, etc.pdf] I called to negotiate $100 off and to confirm that it is a 93-95 engine etc. After I paid for the engine, and 3 days after it was supposed to have already shipped, he called me and, using jargon that I didn’t understand, said that he was changing something. Because he already had my money, I didn't want to anger him by terminating the deal without allowing him a chance to explain. I asked him to call back during lunch so we could discuss it. He called back, but it was at the end of my lunch break. So, I asked him to call back after work, he agreed. Three days passed. Then he left a voicemail saying he shipped the engine, having never called back to explain what, if anything, was changed or to get my approval for any changes.
I felt like he had all the cards at that point, if he didn't already, because even if I rejected the engine, I would be out hundreds in shipping both ways. The only thing I could do was wait for the engine to arrive with the written contract that he said would be included. When it came in, the contract clearly stated "Longblock 93-95 engine" with nothing about any changes. [See 2_Rotary Resurrection Receipt 6-1-06 150dpi.PDF] A thorough inspection of the engine by a knowledgeable friend and me showed that nothing appeared to have been changed. I thought that Landers must have gotten scared and changed it back. No reasonable person would believe that a legitimate business would deliver a written contract that didn't represent what was actually delivered. So I kept the engine.
Fast forwarding to 2008, the turbos failed after only around 8k miles of engine use. Upon removal of the turbos and exhaust manifold, holes with molten metal shards were found inside of the engine’s exhaust sleeves.
3_13B_Exhaust_Port_030small.jpg
https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1295056943
4_13B_Exhaust_Port_031small.jpg
https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1295056943
The exhaust sleeves were melted completely through and some of the metal shards could be moved by finger. Upon further investigation, we discovered that the rotor housings were actually 89-91 NA housings instead of the 93-95 turbo ones that should be on a 93-95 engine. The L-shaped anti-whistle baffles were cut out to make it appear to function the same. The melting occurred only where these cuts were made. With the turbos on, there was no way to tell visually that the wrong housings were used unless the engine is taken apart. Here is a FAQ showing that the S5 NA and S6 turbo housings are identical on the outside.
http://www.banzai-racing.com/faq_housings_ID.htm
For a better understanding of what was cut, here is an example of a different set of S5 NA rotor housings that Kevin cut the exhaust sleeve baffles out of.
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/look-these-housings-350069/
By this time, I had forgotten about Kevin Landers trying to change the deal after he had my money. I contacted Kevin and gave him an opportunity to make this right without the implication of any fraud. I suggested that he just "forgot" what housings were used because the engine had sat for a while before he sold it. [SEE 5_Initial E-mails Complete 4-11-08.pdf] His response was, "yes I probably did just forget." But despite the pictures of damage only in the spots that he cut, he proclaimed, "So I would definitely, hands down, no doubt about it, have to disagree that this mod caused any problems (or will do so in the future)." Even with loose shards of metal coming from the exhaust sleeves, he said, "if the engine holds oil, coolant, and makes compression, I define it as good." Finally, he claimed, "But, the 89+ housings are identical to FD housings, only the sleeves vary."
To the contrary, here is the full list of all the differences between the two housings and links to older threads, some by Landers himself, discussing some of those differences:
* 89-91 NA has “anti-whistle” baffles in the exhaust sleeve. Also, the bottom of the exhaust sleeve is raised up into the exhaust stream a little. Most experts I have spoken with recommend replacing these sleeves instead of cutting/grinding the baffles out if you must use these housings on a 93-95 engine.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ght=smoothport
* 89-91 uses a Teflon coating on the trochoid face of the rotor housing. The 93+ uses a baked on carbon graphite coating because it “is superior to Teflon in its lubricating and bedding-in abilities.” –“RX-7”, Yamaguchi.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hlight=coating
* 93+ has a machined relief cut in the coolant passage near the leading spark plug hole to cool the hottest part of the engine to prevent detonation. This is especially important if the car is ever to be driven hard for long periods of time.
https://www.rx7club.com/race-car-tech-103/water-jacket-weave-porting-936073/#post10391369
* 93+ has a groove in the “legs” of the housing to help seal the oil pan area.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hlight=grooves
I offered to return the engine core only for a partial refund of $1900 minus 8% for 8k mi driven. He refused to even negotiate; citing his warranty policy of no refunds. He expected to hold me to a warranty statement that is part of a contract that he has already breached by failing to deliver what was agreed upon.
I filed a complaint against Kevin Landers / Rotary Resurrection (sometimes misspelled Rotary Ressurrection) with the Knoxville Better Business Bureau on July 10, 2008. [BBB Complaint Available] However, he stopped responding to them and they could not force him into arbitration because he is not a BBB member.
On December 23, 2008, after getting no response from legal demand letters, I filed a case in Osage County Small Claims Court because that is where I took delivery of the engine. I sued for $5990.38 for a refund of the engine plus shipping and installation/uninstallation cost. I appeared Pro Se. He hired a lawyer. On May 21, 2009, I won against their motion to dismiss on jurisdiction and venue partly because, although Landers claimed in an affidavit that mine was his only sale to a resident of Oklahoma, I found another resident who bought from him through the forums.
http://www1.odcr.com/detail.php?Case...85&County=057-
A few days before the actual trial on the merits of the case took place, Landers made a settlement offer that came up far short. We went to trial on June 23, 2009. My argument was that I did not receive what was agreed upon, a 93-95 engine. Ihor Huk of IR Performance and Chris Ott of Rotary Performance testified over the phone on my behalf. Ihor said that the engine delivered is not a 93-95 engine. Chris said the engine delivered is not a proper 93-95 engine.
Kevin Landers had affidavits from three engine builders. They all stated that "1989-91 Nonturbo rotor housings are equivalent to, and interchangeable with, 1993-95 rotor housings providing that the exhaust port sleeves are modified to remove the noise diffusers..." But two of them (who work at the same shop) both added on, "...these would be acceptable for a hybrid use engine, we do not market this type of engine in our automotive replacement program, but have seen it successfully done in past applications by our competitors." The Court was able to contact one of these two over the phone for cross-examination, during which Landers’ expert witness admitted that he would not sell the engine that Landers sold and claim it is a 93-95 engine without telling his customer about the modification. [Affidavits available]
Also notable, Kevin Landers of Rotary Resurrection tried to argue in his testimony essentially that the hot exhaust gasses would not touch the bottom of the exhaust sleeve where the melting occurred because the exhaust sleeve passages are angled upward. So, the sleeves couldn’t have melted due to hot exhaust gas. He said he had “proof” of this because he ran an engine without an exhaust manifold and observed the flames shooting out of the engine at an upward angle. I will let one of the engineers out there explain why that observation doesn’t prove this. Anyway, during my cross-examination of Mr. Landers, I pointed out (in question format) that the high pressure exhaust gasses will expand everywhere into the sleeve when the rotor apex starts to pass the exhaust port because of the pressure difference. He still exclaimed that there was no “force” to cause the exhaust to expand downward. I responded that pressure is a force.
On June 26th, 2009 the Court ruled that I was not provided the goods described in the offering. But, I wasn’t entitled to a refund because of the 8k mi and age of the engine. However, the court awarded me $3000 in damages for the difference in value between what I received and what I should have received, for labor costs to remove the non-conforming engine and install a conforming one, and $216 in court costs. [See 7_Small Claims Court Judgement 06-26-2009 72dpi.pdf]
After all of this, plus a year and a half of not being paid and a failed settlement negotiation, I still offered to settle for either: $2300 and the return of the engine core to him. OR Payment of the judgement amount, return of the engine core to him and a non-disclosure agreement. Luckily, for all of you, he chose neither option.
Several of the above statements are just as I testified to in court.
Last edited by coneklr; 01-14-11 at 08:14 PM. Reason: Edit: inline images too big, changed to links
01-18-11, 07:35 AM
#4
What are you hoping to get out of this thread besides posting up a private legal dispute? If you wanted builder's advice, you've already found professionals who agree with you (and those who don't aren't talking). If you want legal advice or opinion, well this is a car forum.
Whether you feel like you got taken or not, I can tell you from a tuner's perspective that the rotor housings themselves are not directly responsible for your engine's failure.
Whether you feel like you got taken or not, I can tell you from a tuner's perspective that the rotor housings themselves are not directly responsible for your engine's failure.
01-18-11, 09:45 AM
#7
I believe this is a good post. It describes the problem, shows differences between what he was promised and what he received, described the highlights of the legal process, and the reasoning of the judgment. This could be useful information for another member in the future who is experiencing the same issue. Though I believe this is useful here, it may truly belong in the good, bad and the ugly vendors section.
This really should also demonstrate how careful we all need to be when purchasing an engine or having one rebuilt. This should help convince those looking that they should use a REPUTABLE engine builder that has demonstrated quality, reliability and willingness to deal with issues in an honorable way. Just because you have a problem does not necessarily mean the business you are dealing with is a bad one. Define them with the seriousness of the mistake, and how they go about dealing with legitimate mistakes on their end.
Also when dealing with a new/rebuilt engine the owner should also be just as meticulous when choosing a reputable ROTARY tuner. Most engine failures are due to poor tuning.
This really should also demonstrate how careful we all need to be when purchasing an engine or having one rebuilt. This should help convince those looking that they should use a REPUTABLE engine builder that has demonstrated quality, reliability and willingness to deal with issues in an honorable way. Just because you have a problem does not necessarily mean the business you are dealing with is a bad one. Define them with the seriousness of the mistake, and how they go about dealing with legitimate mistakes on their end.
Also when dealing with a new/rebuilt engine the owner should also be just as meticulous when choosing a reputable ROTARY tuner. Most engine failures are due to poor tuning.
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01-18-11, 08:24 PM
#14
#garageguybuild
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I've bought several items from him and he rebuilt my engine back in 2008.
He's was always good to deal with and the engine is still running strong.
Sorry to hear about you dealings with him.
He's was always good to deal with and the engine is still running strong.
Sorry to hear about you dealings with him.
01-18-11, 08:58 PM
#15
wanted to share my experience with kevin landers / RR.
he ported my shortblock and milled my rotors to accept 3mm seals, a couple of years back. still running strong with 18,000 miles on that rebuilt. just did a compression test recently and saw about 110 on front and rear rotors.
he gave me a fair price and did excellent work.
just my experience with the guy.
he ported my shortblock and milled my rotors to accept 3mm seals, a couple of years back. still running strong with 18,000 miles on that rebuilt. just did a compression test recently and saw about 110 on front and rear rotors.
he gave me a fair price and did excellent work.
just my experience with the guy.
01-18-11, 10:18 PM
#18
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Thanks for all the comments. I'm glad a lot of you got what you paid for. Based on the number of people that bought from him, I thought he was honest too when I bought this. But a lot of us old ebayers know that even the bad sellers on ebay often have up to 97-98% positive feedback. Its what happens when there is a problem that makes the difference.
Sleeve replacement requires a teardown of the engine. But would you trust that the engine would be built properly if this happened to you? We are beyond that point. He has a judgement against him.
I would like to echo oo7arkman's "reputable" comment. In talking to a few reputable engine builders, I am shocked at what they have found other builders doing. But that's for a different thread.
Sleeve replacement requires a teardown of the engine. But would you trust that the engine would be built properly if this happened to you? We are beyond that point. He has a judgement against him.
I would like to echo oo7arkman's "reputable" comment. In talking to a few reputable engine builders, I am shocked at what they have found other builders doing. But that's for a different thread.
01-18-11, 10:42 PM
#19
For the record and archival reasons..
We all knew to avoid Landers like OBX turbos. Too late, $5 too short but there is a new group of kiddo's coming (or so the wise old army man says).. but his name came up a lot in terms of shotty engine rebuilds - which alone was a "Stay away" sign.
anyhow - great info, thanks for sharing.
We all knew to avoid Landers like OBX turbos. Too late, $5 too short but there is a new group of kiddo's coming (or so the wise old army man says).. but his name came up a lot in terms of shotty engine rebuilds - which alone was a "Stay away" sign.
anyhow - great info, thanks for sharing.
01-18-11, 11:48 PM
#21
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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Pretty shady stuff, but doesn't surprise me at all. Next time, do business with at RX-7 World (if you're in the Carolinas area).
This will be moved to good guy/bad guy where it belongs.
This will be moved to good guy/bad guy where it belongs.
01-19-11, 10:00 AM
#25
With that said, there are plenty of good engine builders in the nation to choose from, and on a whole the really good ones are not the cheap ones. Sometimes its worth the extra cash to save problems.