Pre Turbo WI vs Post IC WI Dyno Test Results!
02-14-12, 04:11 AM
#27
I would have thought a larger nozzle would be needed for post IC injection as the pressure of the WI pump would effectively be reduced by the boost pressure compared to vacuum for pre turbo injection.
02-14-12, 09:01 AM
#28
I responded to your PM but I will post here as well. First off, great real world results that myself and I am sure tons of others will appreciate over the years.
Lower compression/lower power with the engine. I have seen something similar happen when you have a fuel injector that is sticking open or a car that is running extremely rich. The fuel(or water in this situation) washes out the housing and basically removes all the lubrication from the housings. This can cause seals to warp or dig into the housings pretty aggressively. It is usually apparent pretty quickly by lower vacuum readings.
I suggest trying to take a 5-6 hour road trip keeping the car between 2500-3500 rpms and making sure you are premixing properly.
I think most realize when running water or water/meth you should premix a little more than if you were not running water/meth. If it is still starting decently quick when the engine is hot, I wouldnt worry much. I know you want 9s in the 1/4 out of it but it may require c16 and about 28-30lbs. I would LOVE to see you do it on pump gas with water/meth but that is asking a lot out of a 67mm turbo.
Have you considered a billet wheel turbo? I have seen brand new 67/66 as low as about $875.00 with journal bearings. The guys who are running 25+psi on the billet wheels are getting great trap speeds and really seeing a jump in power once the boost hits above 20psi.
Lower compression/lower power with the engine. I have seen something similar happen when you have a fuel injector that is sticking open or a car that is running extremely rich. The fuel(or water in this situation) washes out the housing and basically removes all the lubrication from the housings. This can cause seals to warp or dig into the housings pretty aggressively. It is usually apparent pretty quickly by lower vacuum readings.
I suggest trying to take a 5-6 hour road trip keeping the car between 2500-3500 rpms and making sure you are premixing properly.
I think most realize when running water or water/meth you should premix a little more than if you were not running water/meth. If it is still starting decently quick when the engine is hot, I wouldnt worry much. I know you want 9s in the 1/4 out of it but it may require c16 and about 28-30lbs. I would LOVE to see you do it on pump gas with water/meth but that is asking a lot out of a 67mm turbo.
Have you considered a billet wheel turbo? I have seen brand new 67/66 as low as about $875.00 with journal bearings. The guys who are running 25+psi on the billet wheels are getting great trap speeds and really seeing a jump in power once the boost hits above 20psi.
02-14-12, 10:44 AM
#29
Thanks djseven. Your thoughts and suggestion sounds good. I was mixing 1 oz per gallon. What do you suggest I mix it? there was a recent thread about this question. It starts decent I think.
Also I was wondering if the spark plugs could have been affected from all that water and not performing as well? The engine did bog and stall out a couple times, it didn't hydrolock which I know is near impossible with the rotary. I was running 2 R7420-10 plugs and 2 br10eix plugs in the trailing, I have 4 new R7420-11 plugs on the way.
Ya someday I'll upgrade the turbo. thanks.
Also I was wondering if the spark plugs could have been affected from all that water and not performing as well? The engine did bog and stall out a couple times, it didn't hydrolock which I know is near impossible with the rotary. I was running 2 R7420-10 plugs and 2 br10eix plugs in the trailing, I have 4 new R7420-11 plugs on the way.
Ya someday I'll upgrade the turbo. thanks.
02-15-12, 10:59 AM
#30
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Tom,
Two PFC questions about your map.
Area around P10, N17 where timing is greatly retarded; did you do that because knock was going high after letting off the throttle from full boost?
I noticed that you are using very retarded timing for idle. More then what Mazda used. Mazda did this along with a lot of air flow and rich gas to get a smooth low rpm idle. But doing this causes a lot of carbon buildup. I found that using around 12 leading with -17 split, the engine runs smooth along with a leaner AFR and no carbon build up.
Chuck
Two PFC questions about your map.
Area around P10, N17 where timing is greatly retarded; did you do that because knock was going high after letting off the throttle from full boost?
I noticed that you are using very retarded timing for idle. More then what Mazda used. Mazda did this along with a lot of air flow and rich gas to get a smooth low rpm idle. But doing this causes a lot of carbon buildup. I found that using around 12 leading with -17 split, the engine runs smooth along with a leaner AFR and no carbon build up.
Chuck
02-15-12, 11:09 AM
#31
Timing is retarded in that area because that is the part of the map used when I'm on the 2 step building a little boost at the line at the drag strip. I was using the retarded timing for idle because it made my idle leaner with the 850s, the more retarded I went with the timing the leaner it got, and it is smooth, I did this also because I was not using any negative lag to lean out the idle, although it was still idling around 11.5-12, that was the best I could get it without using negative lag and 44 base fp. I just started using -.40 lag for the 850s and got my idle in the low 13's and fairly smooth. Thanks for the suggestion, i will try the timing numbers you suggested, although I'm pretty sure I've tried them before when I got a map from you with similar numbers and they made my idle richer and idle higher, but maybe I'll also need to do some throttle body adjustments. Thanks I didn't know it would create more carbon buildup.
02-23-12, 01:55 PM
#33
Pistons are for pussy's
Tom stupid question here, but like you have your noozle just after the intercooler outlet i was wondering if this doesnt affect the BOV in any way whatsoever.
03-16-12, 11:53 AM
#35
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good back to back tests here, very interesting reading, yeah the retarded ignition did have me confused until you mentioned the 2 step being used, question what 3 BAR Map sensor are you using, GM?
04-14-12, 06:57 PM
#37
I pretty much blew the engine today on the first run of the season, in 4th gear after the 1000 ft mark it started cutting out and recorded unusual very high knock readings. Still ran a 10.46 @ 122. It did the same thing during a 3rd gear pull on the way to the track. Everything looks normal and good on the datalogs except the knock when it happened, so I don't really know what exactly happened or exactly why. Before this the last recent compression check did show lower compression around 75-80, and it lost a small amount of power on the dyno.
was able to drive it home after bump starting it. compression is now 60 on the piston compression gauge on both rotors, uneven bounces on the rear rotor. It still runs but very hard to start and had to turn up the idle to keep it running, low vacuum at idle.
was able to drive it home after bump starting it. compression is now 60 on the piston compression gauge on both rotors, uneven bounces on the rear rotor. It still runs but very hard to start and had to turn up the idle to keep it running, low vacuum at idle.
04-14-12, 07:13 PM
#38
I was running a aem middle size water injector pre turbo, and the small size injector post fmic, I hooked this up a couple days ago. Before I was running the large aem injector pre turbo. So a little less water overall. The knock readings looked good like normal until the engine cut out and showed the high knock readings. My speed was 2 mph faster at the 1000 ft mark compared to my last run last year so it might have been making more power with this dual setup and a little less water. The times on the time slip were very close to the same when I did 10.39, speed was just a tad quicker. Spool up inbetween shifts looks much quicker on the datalogs.
But I also have a bigger 4" exhaust and larger divided turbine housing now compared to last year
But I also have a bigger 4" exhaust and larger divided turbine housing now compared to last year
04-15-12, 04:48 PM
#40
I think the motor was on its way out, compression was already a little low. The water tank was almost full so I don't think there was any problem with the water injection. Knock was low right before it happened. When I got to the track after that 3rd gear pull it wasn't idling very good and it actually stalled pulling up to the line after the burnout. I'm guessing something broke inside the engine which caused the high knock readings. I'll have to check the turbo soon, and I'm not in a hurry to start tearing it apart.
04-15-12, 05:24 PM
#41
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I am starting my "quest for Fire" and I just purchased a Varicool Kit.
I am trying to get info on where to put the water nozzle.
Some say Pre,some say post.
The question is HOW.where,and what to put the nozzle on.
My guess was to drill the air filter and place it in the top,at the turbo,..OR put it right after the turbo on pipe.
Is there a Taker to answer this for me?/Muchly appreciated.
Tom.If I could get even 450 out of this engine,I would eat my own spleen..lol..!(sorry about your engine.(Every time ya hear a clank,a rotor gets it's wings!)
I am trying to get info on where to put the water nozzle.
Some say Pre,some say post.
The question is HOW.where,and what to put the nozzle on.
My guess was to drill the air filter and place it in the top,at the turbo,..OR put it right after the turbo on pipe.
Is there a Taker to answer this for me?/Muchly appreciated.
Tom.If I could get even 450 out of this engine,I would eat my own spleen..lol..!(sorry about your engine.(Every time ya hear a clank,a rotor gets it's wings!)
04-15-12, 05:41 PM
#42
Mine is in my intake pipe between the air filter and the turbo, it wasn't easily possible for me to put it in my air filter. The other one is in the ic pipe after the fmic outlet. Just drill and tap the pipe for 1/8 pipe thread for the water nozzle that threads into the pipe. You have to put it either before the turbo, after the intercooler or both.
04-15-12, 08:41 PM
#44
With my new setup I have a 315 cc nozzle pre turbo and a 130 cc
nozzle post ic.
"30-3000 kit came with 130 cc/min, 315 cc/min, and 550 cc/min nozzles. The flow rates listed are at 150 psi of line pressure. If you have the newest pump you can expect up to a 25% increase in flow due to the higher outlet pressure."
I would suggest running at least that much. Better to have the bigger nozzle preturbo for power and atomization. I was using the 550 nozzle just pre turbo before.
nozzle post ic.
"30-3000 kit came with 130 cc/min, 315 cc/min, and 550 cc/min nozzles. The flow rates listed are at 150 psi of line pressure. If you have the newest pump you can expect up to a 25% increase in flow due to the higher outlet pressure."
I would suggest running at least that much. Better to have the bigger nozzle preturbo for power and atomization. I was using the 550 nozzle just pre turbo before.
04-15-12, 11:22 PM
#47
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Mine is in my intake pipe between the air filter and the turbo, it wasn't easily possible for me to put it in my air filter. The other one is in the ic pipe after the fmic outlet. Just drill and tap the pipe for 1/8 pipe thread for the water nozzle that threads into the pipe. You have to put it either before the turbo, after the intercooler or both.
My air filter sits on the turbo,so I thought since it has a metal lid I can toss a nozzle in there..aim it straight on.
Other places are not a problem.
The car is currently hitting 15psi on a BNR Stage 3(750/1000).,and I am changing the setup to a T04S and 1000/2000 Id's.(etc,etc)
It should be a nice little Grocery getter!
04-16-12, 10:41 AM
#49
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Tom,
After reading your posts and data, I decided to also experiment with some pre-turbo water spraying. Initially starting with minor pre-turbo amount.
But my tranny has been out for a month for a rebuild by a local expert. This means the turn around will be slow but the tranny will be like new when it comes home.
Chuck
After reading your posts and data, I decided to also experiment with some pre-turbo water spraying. Initially starting with minor pre-turbo amount.
But my tranny has been out for a month for a rebuild by a local expert. This means the turn around will be slow but the tranny will be like new when it comes home.
Chuck
04-16-12, 11:41 AM
#50
thanks for the pictures Chuck, that looks good, I should get an air filter like that one and then I could put the injector there also and that would probably be better than spraying into the side of my intake pipe. my air filter sits down low behind the front bumper. What air filter is that? they sell cheap ones like that at advance auto parts but I didn't want to try one.