Hello, I have a 87 TII with a S5 motor running HKS T04R turbo, KG fuel rails with full SS braided line setup with 1600cc secondaries and 850 primaries. ECU is microtech LT10. Last time i tuned the car i made 380 WHP @ 14 psi on 93 pump gas. Im in search of more power for this thing, id like to get at least 400 maybe 425 WHP. im going to have to up the boost to do this so i went ahead and bought the coolingmist deluxe trunk mount kit with there older model controller with the two PSI setting ***** and the tune **** in the middle. and im thinking about running 50/50 water/meth..

My first question is..I'd like to use this not just for safety but also to allow me to up the boost to make about 30-40 more WHP then im making now. However id like to not have to lean the fuel map out enough to where if the meth system fails i would detonate. im not even sure if that's possible?? if not i guess ill have to deal with the fact the engine may blow if the meth system fails..how much do you really have to tune down the fuel to accommodate for the meth? i know now under full boost im in the 11.0 range on the wideband... second, i did some searching of the sticky threads and still cant really figure out what size nozzle to run for my single injector setup? im planning on running 15 PSI for low boost setting on my greddy profec b, id like to setup the meth to kick on at 15psi and be at 100% flow at my high boost setting of maybe around 18-20psi?? enough to bump the HP to around 400-425

 

If your tuning with meth, especially large amounts you pretty much need to take out the extra fuel. Otherwise you will reduce the amount of power you make by running rich. Although one advantage to running a lot of meth is that richer mixtures aren't as power sapping as with pump fuel. If you're worried about not removing fuel in case of failure you could consider either straight water or a 50/50 mix. This would keep it from being as rich when it comes on while still giving the knock reducing effects of ai.

 

thats what i was planning on running 50/50 mix (boost juice) from snow performance. there is a vendor for it right near me and i get it really cheap there...i would think that i could have my tuner tune down the fuel to around 11.8 without the meth at around 20 psi and that way i would be safe if the system fails. would that go way rich if the meth/water mix kicked on running high 11's AFR? im kinda confused as to how much fuel the 50/50 mix would add to the map when it kicks in.

 

this section seems to be dead...

 

18-20 psi on a properly fixtured/tuned 13b is much much closer to 500 rw than 400-425. so what is it you want?

there is a big difference. do you want 400-425 or do you want 18-20 psi and 490?

either way the addition of a 50/50 mix will cool down the working end of your motor and promote longevity.

IF currently you are close to knock on your tune and you turn up the boost to make more power you will have to tune up. you can't just add water and alcohol and make more power.

you need to be able to log knock and to properly set your igniton curve you need to be able to log preturbo egts. neither of these items are particularly expensive. see my thread "dual digital egts"

install your system taking extra care to get electrical connections right etc.

as to nozzles... there is a (slight) lag from trigger point w a pump nozzle setup so you want to employ windage. trigger it to come on at, say 12 psi and it will be rolling at 15. no biggie.

nozzles can be referred to with different labels as to deliver flow...

i like to talk in terms of CC/Minute as that's how we look at out injectors.

an M10 nozzle flows 10 gallons per hour (GPH)
1 GPH equals 63 CC/Min

pump pressure greatly effects atomisation. alcohol atomises easily. water takes more pressure as it is 36% more dense.

flow increases ONLY w the square root of a change in pressure.

in other words, a 100% increase in pump pressure increases flow 10%.

depending on how much you want to lean your motor out (tune up) you can run as much water/alcohol as you want.

what you appear to want is another 50 rwhp or so. easily done and the neat thing is that your motor will be under far less stress w the AI injectant at 450 than it is at 380.

you have 4900 CC of base fuel currently available. i suggest you add around 500 to 750 CC of 50/50.

further, i suggest you carefully read a thread in this section by Richard L discussing types of systems. after reading it you might want to set your system up as a dual stage. read it and if you have questions ask away.

BTW, while this section "appears" to be "dead" there is alot of info in both the stickies and earlier posts so do a bit of searching.

good luck, do it right and you will be smiling bigtime.

howard

 

great post..thank you! i'd acctually love to make close to 500whp at 18-20 psi but my tuner (dave at KDR performance) was a little weary about running much over 400-425 without the motor being dowl pinned, he said he has seen alot of cracked irons ect without having the dowl pins. im interested in getting one of the dual preturbo egt gauges. i read your dual digital egt gauge thread and sorry but i was confused as hell..lol it seems the whole purpose of your setup is to work with the power fc, where as im running a microtech..is there anyone who makes a whole kit? or what about one of those analog dual egt gauges that where made for airplanes? know what i mean? and how exactly can i log knock with the microtech or watever?
how important is the egt gauge if im already tuning AFR on the dyno? the cooliingmist system im running has the progressive varicool controller so ill have a bit of tuning available for the 50/50. i was planning on only running one nozzle, is that ok? and what size should that be? pardon the newb questions im new to meth injection setups and tuning to high HP, i love the idea of doing this so im very interested in learning as much as possible. thanks

 

11.8 afrs isn't safe on pump fuel and 20 psi. And really tuning without the meth to a higher afr is backwards. You could either tune with the meth the whole time, or tune it safe with pump fuel then just add the meth with no concern of how it effects the afr's. I wouldn't run leaner then about 11 at 20 psi without the meth. Course 20 psi on pump fuel is pushing things anyway. You could then see how much it richens it up with meth. How much will depend on your nozzle size, pressure, and of course mixture which you said is 50/50. I recommend making it as reliable as possible so it failing isn't a big issue. Otherwise you should stick to lower boost levels.

 

so then what if i run 18 psi? does that sound a little safer? not sure where ill be HP wise at that boost level but surly it should make at least 425 right? how do i figure out what nozzle size i need to use? does it go by horsepower/ how much fuel your using or boost levels? im planning on having 2 different boost levels, 15 psi for low boost and 18-20 for high boost. Right now im tuned for 15 psi for high boost with 93 and no meth. i made 380 whp.

im going to plan on installing the system and setting the progressive meth controller to come on at 12psi and be at 100% around 15 psi so it holds at 100% until max boost. ill probably tune the whole time with the 50/50 pumping. so i still need to figure out where to get the dual egt setup and i have to figure out how to log knock. of course my tuner should know how to moniter the knock, i just wasnt sure if there was some additional equiptment i had to buy to do that or if its built into my microtech..ill do some more searching.

 

howard, here is the dual egt guage i was looking at that i mentioned in my earlier post. will this work for me? i dont think it has logging abilities thats the only downside

 

I guess it's all about what you expect the system to do. If you expect that it will fail and go unnoticed for weeks or months, then that's different then if you expect it to hold up and if there is a failure it will be caught within minutes. It also depends on if you can afford to loose an engine and what risks you're comfortable taking.

A few people have been running reliable 20 psi boost on pump gas with no AI. But usually some sort of precautions have been taken. Other people have blown their engines at 10 psi.

Comparing 18 psi to 20 psi is not really what will determine if its safe, the whole setup is what determines what is safe or not. 20 psi @ 10.8:1 afr's would be safer then 18 psi @ 12.5:1 afrs. Earlier you mentioned tuning the system to 20 psi at 11.8 afrs, those afr's are entirely too lean for the engine to reliably last. It might last the dyno session but if the AI system failed and you had a so/so tank of gas it would be toast. I don't see anything wrong with running 18 or 20 psi if either your AI is reliable or if its tuned reliable without AI. If you're seriously concerned with the system failing then I would tune the car like any normal car without AI.

I honestly don't know how much your mixtures will be effected with a 50/50 mix @ say 15% of pump fuel. It might be a very small amount that's hardly a factor, but if you mixture gets into the low 10's your power will suffer. And if it gets into the high 11's at higher boost and no AI you'll be in trouble.

Personally it sounds like you should be going with an all water setup. That will allow you to run safe amounts of fuel without worrying about the mixture going lean if it fails. Otherwise you could tune it w/o AI first then just add the 50/50 AI and expect maybe a small loss in power with the AI activated because of a richer mixture.

 

im by far not a tuner but i'd be quite afraid of tuning 20psi on pump with no AI.. do people really do that on a rotary with todays shitty gas? just because im running 10.8 AFR that dosent mean its not gonna detonate like a **** from all the heat caused by 20psi..i dont expect the system to fail, im installing the system with leds to light when the system is pumping so ill be keeping a close eyes on those and my wideband gauge. i expect to be aware of a system failure within minutes.

 

I can think of 2 people that have been running 20 psi for a couple years at least. One has been pushing his stock twins over 20 psi, he has a WI kit but says he usually turns it off cause he felt like the car made less power he's running a power fc with the base map timing, the other is running a t60-2 or something like that @ 20 psi with a lot of intake shielding.

If you have confidence in you're system then tune up for it, but depending on how much fuel you take out of the base map your engine might not even last minutes without the WI. Higher boost won't be a problem with the AI working correctly. I say just hook it all up and see how rich the mixture gets once installed. If you're uncomfortable taking out as much fuel as required for a proper tune, then change your mixture from 50/50 to something that makes you more comfortable in the event of a failure. I think as long as your afr's are a flat 11 @ 20 psi in the event of a failure, and you notice it without driving around boosting everywhere that you should be fine. Then maybe after you've been running the system for awhile and have more confidence you can change back to higher methanol and tune out more fuel.

 

so whats the benifit of running the 50/50 instead of straight water?

 

Well there is no clear or correct answer to that. water has a higher cooling ability in the combution chamber so it doesn't require as much to control knock and effectively raise octane. On the other hand alcohol will cool intake temperatures better. Water needs to have a better ignition system because it doesn't naturally contribute to the burning process. Alcohol requires base fuel to be taken out to make full use of the extra power. Both have been able to make 600 plus reliable hp. I suppose 50/50 would allow for a bit of both worlds. To say its better isn't a true statement. Only experimenting and logging the effects of different mixtures will tell what works best for you. I run straight water but will probably experiment with mixtures at some point.

 

so i did some checking and it looks like coolingmist only carries either 506 cc/min or 760 cc/min injectors. what do you think i should go with for a single injector setup howard? also what do you think of these two dual egt guages? the one is analog and the other is a really nice digital gauge made for snowmobiles but ive heard it works great for a rotary. i dont have the option to log my egts with the microtech ecu but do you think it will still be a good thing to get or a valuable tuning tool? here are links..here are 3 differnt ones actually. so far i like the first one the most..

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pro...asp?RecID=2942

http://www.team2powersports.com/Koso.../bd04-0223.htm

http://www.pineappleracing.com/index...PROD&ProdID=24

 

coolingmist offers a wide array of nozzle sizes, their kits come with a M3 and M5 by default but you can change them by request. I had them ship my kit with 2 M2's. They offer both outside or inside install nozzles.

http://www.coolingmist.com/pagedispl...s_and_fittings

http://www.coolingmist.com/detailmain.aspx?pid=13

 

lol yeah did you read my last post? Howard said to get between a 500cc/min and a 700cc/min nozzle and coolingmist only offers a 506 and 760cc/min nozzles in that range so im not sure which one to get

 

It goes back to what you expect from your system. If you want it safer if it were to fail then the smaller nozzle will require less tuning on a 50/50 mix. It will also depend on how well your ignition system is. The more water you run the more you need a good spark. If you were running straight water i would go with the smaller nozzle since your goals are more in the 400 range. Even with 50/50 you should be fine with the smaller nozzle. If you plan to exceed 20 psi and have a strong ignition then the larger nozzle would give you better protection. The smaller nozzle will atomize better putting less strain on the ignition and less chance of misfires. Personally for your use i think the smaller nozzle will work out better for you at this point in your setup.

 

ok, i guess ill try the 506cc/min nozzle out and see how it goes

 

so i got everything on the car including a new turbo setup, i now am goig to tune the car on the 3rd of july and i wanted to get a few things straight.. first off, i installed the coolingmist trunk mount kit with the prgressive controller, when i tested the system i set the controller to start spraying at 2 psi, and i left the nozzle out of the pipe so i could see if it was spraying. i then blew in the vacuum hose to trigger the system and it started spraying pretty fast, but theres a problem. the spray pulses really bad, so bad that the line shakes and vibrates, so i was wondering what is causing this? im assuming that its not good for it to do that because i wont be getting a good steady spray into the engine. anyone have any input on this issue?

 

Thats normal, my AEM kit does the same thing when it is unplugged.

 

2 possibilities, you were priming the system, first startup probably would involve replacing air in the pump and lines with your mixture. Thats why the pump was loud, choppy, and moving a lot.

Another possibility is that you blowing into the tube didnt provide a smooth constant pressure flow to the box like an engine would provide so the computer was reacting to what it was seeing.

kevin.

 

my system is custom. the injectors & hoses & brackets are from coolingmist, tank is a 2.5gal from snow performance + low level light, and the controller is from AEM


but from what ive seen the majority thats been happy (meaning no problems) have been straight meth no 50/50 or just water.



BTW on a side note. ive had a friend that went through 3motors because of the injection system.


1st was water and the apex seals cracked
2nd was alcohol (denatured alcohol, and the other test was the alcohol you get from paint thinner) and it blew within 2 wks

3rd was 50/50 and it was ok but it was ment for a safe guard for high boostand not for performance.

SO IMO from experience id stay with str8 meth! but no rubber hoses please only stainless steel

 

the seals cracked from running water? wtf?

 

A run straight water regularly on 20 psi and a couple times up to 22psi. Knock under 30