My BNR Pre-Turbo WI
02-10-09, 03:16 PM
#1
400Rwhp Seq Twins Baby!!
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My BNR Pre-Turbo WI
Hi guys. Let me start off with some background of what im trying to achieve and how.
For a long time now I have always preffered the use of twins over Single turbo's. Even while owning both at the same time I enjoyed the twins. This subject will be debated until the end of time so lets leave it at that. I have always wanted to reach 400rwhp in sequential form because I know the target is achievable reliabley with everything to support it.
Anyway after pruchasing a set of BNR's a couple of years ago, my engine let go last sept just after the running in period, due to a **** build. So I sold those BNR's and bought a new set. With the new engine and a host of other toys im ready to rock and roll.
My goals are still the same but since Sept I have researched many different AI systems & methods. Finally I decided on the Rice Racing Pre Turbo kit from AUS. To me it just makes sense to go Pre-Turbo. Elongating the efficiency ratio of the twins and reducing combustion temps at the same time.
Now the main issue I have is that over here in the UK, Pre-Turbo is frowned upon for being unsafe to the turbine blades. TBH I have yet to see any real proof of damage when using correct equipment. Therefore its uncharted territory. There are actually 2 of us that would like to run Pre-Turbo with twins.
With the above in mind I have a question and would like to hear your thoughts...
Using twins will I need to run:
2 Injectors, one on each Turbo?
Just one on the Primary?
Just one on the Secondary?
Rixio
For a long time now I have always preffered the use of twins over Single turbo's. Even while owning both at the same time I enjoyed the twins. This subject will be debated until the end of time so lets leave it at that. I have always wanted to reach 400rwhp in sequential form because I know the target is achievable reliabley with everything to support it.
Anyway after pruchasing a set of BNR's a couple of years ago, my engine let go last sept just after the running in period, due to a **** build. So I sold those BNR's and bought a new set. With the new engine and a host of other toys im ready to rock and roll.
My goals are still the same but since Sept I have researched many different AI systems & methods. Finally I decided on the Rice Racing Pre Turbo kit from AUS. To me it just makes sense to go Pre-Turbo. Elongating the efficiency ratio of the twins and reducing combustion temps at the same time.
Now the main issue I have is that over here in the UK, Pre-Turbo is frowned upon for being unsafe to the turbine blades. TBH I have yet to see any real proof of damage when using correct equipment. Therefore its uncharted territory. There are actually 2 of us that would like to run Pre-Turbo with twins.
With the above in mind I have a question and would like to hear your thoughts...
Using twins will I need to run:
2 Injectors, one on each Turbo?
Just one on the Primary?
Just one on the Secondary?
Rixio
02-10-09, 04:23 PM
#2
Bosozoomku
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I think this is going to be a really good project with which to follow along. Like you, I am also fond of sequential twins; power delivery on the street just can't be beat. And I hear that pre-turbo water injection is the best way to inject water for the reasons you mentioned.
Pre-turbo water injection may very well be the best thing since sliced bread, but there's very little information about automotive applications, rotary applications, and especially twin-turbo applications. From what I gather, I think your best bet would be to deliver the water to both turbos, probably around 100cc-200cc each, with as fine a mist as possible. I understand that the problems associated with pre-turbo injection comes from too large of droplets impacting the compressor blades. With an extremely fine mist, as in Rice Racing's setup, the blades should be ok.
Obviously there is going to be a lot of trial and error re: the amount of water injected. From what I've read, the setups utilizing pre-turbo injectors all seem to spray about half of what a comparable output engine sprays post-turbo.
Good luck with your project, I can't wait to see some of your test results... please include pics!
02-10-09, 04:35 PM
#3
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Just some preliminary brainstorming. . .
I'd have 2 nozzles, proportional in size to the proportion of air delivered by each turbo, activated at a couple psi after the transition occurs, that way you aren't spraying at a "slow" moving compressor.
Either that, or I'd have an air box that they both pulled from with as homogenous a water distribution as possible. Again, I'd have them activated at a couple psi post transition.
I'd have 2 nozzles, proportional in size to the proportion of air delivered by each turbo, activated at a couple psi after the transition occurs, that way you aren't spraying at a "slow" moving compressor.
Either that, or I'd have an air box that they both pulled from with as homogenous a water distribution as possible. Again, I'd have them activated at a couple psi post transition.
02-10-09, 06:34 PM
#4
I would want water to be spraying at the primary turbo long before transition occurs, the primary turbo does push 10 psi (stock), albeit at lower rpm/throttle, its still significant output.
I would run two injectors, one on each turbo inlet. I would run a solenoid valve to the secondary turbo's injector thats wired to turn on at transition. Ive been single long enough that i cant recall what the most appropriate source would be...
I would run two injectors, one on each turbo inlet. I would run a solenoid valve to the secondary turbo's injector thats wired to turn on at transition. Ive been single long enough that i cant recall what the most appropriate source would be...
02-10-09, 07:15 PM
#5
400Rwhp Seq Twins Baby!!
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Just some preliminary brainstorming. . .
I'd have 2 nozzles, proportional in size to the proportion of air delivered by each turbo, activated at a couple psi after the transition occurs, that way you aren't spraying at a "slow" moving compressor.
Either that, or I'd have an air box that they both pulled from with as homogenous a water distribution as possible. Again, I'd have them activated at a couple psi post transition.
I'd have 2 nozzles, proportional in size to the proportion of air delivered by each turbo, activated at a couple psi after the transition occurs, that way you aren't spraying at a "slow" moving compressor.
Either that, or I'd have an air box that they both pulled from with as homogenous a water distribution as possible. Again, I'd have them activated at a couple psi post transition.
If you mean run one on the Primary from low psi and the other on the Secondary after transition then yes. But having it coming on at 4.5k just seems a waste of time...
I did think it would make more sense to run 2 smaller flowing nozzles rather than one bigger one on the Primary, at least I know now.
02-10-09, 07:22 PM
#6
400Rwhp Seq Twins Baby!!
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Make that three
I think this is going to be a really good project with which to follow along. Like you, I am also fond of sequential twins; power delivery on the street just can't be beat. And I hear that pre-turbo water injection is the best way to inject water for the reasons you mentioned.
Pre-turbo water injection may very well be the best thing since sliced bread, but there's very little information about automotive applications, rotary applications, and especially twin-turbo applications. From what I gather, I think your best bet would be to deliver the water to both turbos, probably around 100cc-200cc each, with as fine a mist as possible. I understand that the problems associated with pre-turbo injection comes from too large of droplets impacting the compressor blades. With an extremely fine mist, as in Rice Racing's setup, the blades should be ok.
Obviously there is going to be a lot of trial and error re: the amount of water injected. From what I've read, the setups utilizing pre-turbo injectors all seem to spray about half of what a comparable output engine sprays post-turbo.
Good luck with your project, I can't wait to see some of your test results... please include pics!
I think this is going to be a really good project with which to follow along. Like you, I am also fond of sequential twins; power delivery on the street just can't be beat. And I hear that pre-turbo water injection is the best way to inject water for the reasons you mentioned.
Pre-turbo water injection may very well be the best thing since sliced bread, but there's very little information about automotive applications, rotary applications, and especially twin-turbo applications. From what I gather, I think your best bet would be to deliver the water to both turbos, probably around 100cc-200cc each, with as fine a mist as possible. I understand that the problems associated with pre-turbo injection comes from too large of droplets impacting the compressor blades. With an extremely fine mist, as in Rice Racing's setup, the blades should be ok.
Obviously there is going to be a lot of trial and error re: the amount of water injected. From what I've read, the setups utilizing pre-turbo injectors all seem to spray about half of what a comparable output engine sprays post-turbo.
Good luck with your project, I can't wait to see some of your test results... please include pics!
Im hoping to be able to get some details up and keep a log for people that want to run Pre-Turbo on twins. With all the knowledge available and experts on this forum im confident it will work really well on twins.
02-10-09, 10:46 PM
#7
I have an M2 sealed "cold" airbox and plan on spraying inside the box but outside the filters, that way both turbos will be able to suck the mist and the filters may eliminate the risk of compressor impeller erosion.
I read about a pre filter setup for another car in autospeed online magazine and they had good performance this way.
I read about a pre filter setup for another car in autospeed online magazine and they had good performance this way.
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02-11-09, 09:56 AM
#8
400Rwhp Seq Twins Baby!!
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I have an M2 sealed "cold" airbox and plan on spraying inside the box but outside the filters, that way both turbos will be able to suck the mist and the filters may eliminate the risk of compressor impeller erosion.
I read about a pre filter setup for another car in autospeed online magazine and they had good performance this way.
I read about a pre filter setup for another car in autospeed online magazine and they had good performance this way.
My Battery will be relocated into the cabin so I can have a Wi Tank in that location. Some pipes will be moved around and other improvements will also be made to the overall layout of the engine bay, in order to run a more efficient setup.
My Primary Filter is located in the sidelight opening for a direct cold air feed. The second is located in the engine bay (Pictured above). I'll be using a Custom vent in the bonnet for another direct cold air feed to the Secondary filter aswell.
Similar to this pic
Here is a pic of the Rice Kit
I will get a 4L Alloy tank made once the engine etc is back in the car in order to get propper dimensions.
02-11-09, 11:49 AM
#9
Bosozoomku
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Haha, that's exactly what I did to my hood...
Did you purchase that kit from Rice? I wasn't able to find any purchasing information from their website.... What did it cost?
Did you purchase that kit from Rice? I wasn't able to find any purchasing information from their website.... What did it cost?
02-11-09, 12:28 PM
#10
400Rwhp Seq Twins Baby!!
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It works out to £500/$750 odd inc shipping etc, but thats not including the Tank which you have to make yourself or have made so factor another $120 for that. I have yet to pay for mine as I wanted to find out the best way to run on twins etc before ordering. Im more concerned in getting the car back together. The weather is not helping atm so things are being delayed...
02-13-09, 02:53 PM
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I have an M2 sealed "cold" airbox and plan on spraying inside the box but outside the filters, that way both turbos will be able to suck the mist and the filters may eliminate the risk of compressor impeller erosion.
I read about a pre filter setup for another car in autospeed online magazine and they had good performance this way.
I read about a pre filter setup for another car in autospeed online magazine and they had good performance this way.
I really would spray post filter.
02-14-09, 03:17 PM
#12
I think post filter would be better also. Seems like the filter would kind of absorb and restrict the water so a larger nozzle would most likely be needed.
If it was me, I would go with 2 nozzles, one for each turbo. Each would have separate solenoids, the front turbo's solenoid would be activated by a pressure switch and turn on anytime there is a boost pressure of around 5 psi. The rear turbo's solenoid would use a switch that is activated by the transition point.
Or I would have them both activated by one pressure switch and then use a second switch on the rear turbo that is activated by RPM.
For nozzles I would use 200 cc nozzles. Or maybe even a little higher but with the ability to dial in the water flow.
If it was me, I would go with 2 nozzles, one for each turbo. Each would have separate solenoids, the front turbo's solenoid would be activated by a pressure switch and turn on anytime there is a boost pressure of around 5 psi. The rear turbo's solenoid would use a switch that is activated by the transition point.
Or I would have them both activated by one pressure switch and then use a second switch on the rear turbo that is activated by RPM.
For nozzles I would use 200 cc nozzles. Or maybe even a little higher but with the ability to dial in the water flow.
02-15-09, 01:25 PM
#14
400Rwhp Seq Twins Baby!!
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I think post filter would be better also. Seems like the filter would kind of absorb and restrict the water so a larger nozzle would most likely be needed.
If it was me, I would go with 2 nozzles, one for each turbo. Each would have separate solenoids, the front turbo's solenoid would be activated by a pressure switch and turn on anytime there is a boost pressure of around 5 psi. The rear turbo's solenoid would use a switch that is activated by the transition point.
Or I would have them both activated by one pressure switch and then use a second switch on the rear turbo that is activated by RPM.
For nozzles I would use 200 cc nozzles. Or maybe even a little higher but with the ability to dial in the water flow.
If it was me, I would go with 2 nozzles, one for each turbo. Each would have separate solenoids, the front turbo's solenoid would be activated by a pressure switch and turn on anytime there is a boost pressure of around 5 psi. The rear turbo's solenoid would use a switch that is activated by the transition point.
Or I would have them both activated by one pressure switch and then use a second switch on the rear turbo that is activated by RPM.
For nozzles I would use 200 cc nozzles. Or maybe even a little higher but with the ability to dial in the water flow.
I had the same idea with the 2 nozzles, one per turbo. Identical setup as what you described in your 2nd para.
Well im gona get on Pete and see what the nozzles he use are. Maybe I can get him to build the kit to spec for me.
02-16-09, 07:05 AM
#15
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
You could try something like a Peter Farrel cold air filter housing. It has a duel outlet K&N filter. Your single nozzle can be mounted on the end plate
and both turbo segments could be accessed from one nozzle. Air inlet to the box could be that neat NACA duct on your hood.
Barry
and both turbo segments could be accessed from one nozzle. Air inlet to the box could be that neat NACA duct on your hood.
Barry
02-16-09, 10:48 AM
#17
You could try something like a Peter Farrel cold air filter housing. It has a duel outlet K&N filter. Your single nozzle can be mounted on the end plate
and both turbo segments could be accessed from one nozzle. Air inlet to the box could be that neat NACA duct on your hood.
Barry
and both turbo segments could be accessed from one nozzle. Air inlet to the box could be that neat NACA duct on your hood.
Barry
anyone know a part number for that filter!?
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