My AI build up thread
10-24-08, 09:24 AM
#26
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: st. louis
Posts: 1,000
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the only real leak is from the high pressure line from the pump to the regulator. its really difficult to get a wrench in there.
on another note, cooling mist recommended that i locktite the threads to seal it. hopefully that will solve my problems.
on another note, cooling mist recommended that i locktite the threads to seal it. hopefully that will solve my problems.
10-25-08, 04:11 PM
#27
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: st. louis
Posts: 1,000
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tried sealing it cooling mists way with locktite. still leaks. i even used some rtv around the oring surfaces. I cracked the nut at the botttom taking the damn thing off. hopefully cooling mist will get things taken care of. Until then, testing is on hold.
10-27-08, 05:09 PM
#29
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: st. louis
Posts: 1,000
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the pump isnt the problem. The other leak was from a loose fitting which i think i fixed. no response form coolingmist.... If the problem is not solved quickly i might jsut weld the hole shut and deal with it later
10-29-08, 01:42 AM
#31
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: st. louis
Posts: 1,000
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
im using regular -an fittings. the aluminum is coated so it should be ok.
on another note. since coolingmist has not responded to my email on how to rectify the crappy low level sensor i think i have 2 options. weld it shut or epoxy the thing in. Will methanol do anything to epoxy? Should i be using a different type of glue?
on another note. since coolingmist has not responded to my email on how to rectify the crappy low level sensor i think i have 2 options. weld it shut or epoxy the thing in. Will methanol do anything to epoxy? Should i be using a different type of glue?
11-02-08, 01:10 AM
#35
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: st. louis
Posts: 1,000
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
not yet. i had to install a new clutch b.c my act street/strip clutch was not oging to cut it. im running a 6 puck act. i was a dumb *** b.c when i rebuilt my engine it only took me an hour to get the engine back in so i decided to pull the motor to do the clutch job. big mistake...evidently i got lucky the first time i stuck the motor back in. on top of all that i broke my egt probe. I was reading in this post about egt setups:
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...dual+egt+gauge
not sure what im going to do. i currently read egt from the rear rotor pre turbo. i do have a bung on the front rotor but did not have a sensor. I might get a dual egt gauge and then a couple of thermocouple translators so i can log on the haltech. i need to check what inputs i have free
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...dual+egt+gauge
not sure what im going to do. i currently read egt from the rear rotor pre turbo. i do have a bung on the front rotor but did not have a sensor. I might get a dual egt gauge and then a couple of thermocouple translators so i can log on the haltech. i need to check what inputs i have free
11-02-08, 08:05 PM
#36
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: st. louis
Posts: 1,000
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i finally got the low level float sealed. I ended up using some permatex form-a-gasket. Pressurized everything and it is dripping between the fuel pressure regulator and the fitting. It is the fitting that mallory supplied with the regulator. I used some teflon tape on the fitting but that did not seal it up either. Any suggestions? I will call summit racing and mallory to see if i can get a new regulator or get it fixed.
On a positive note, i dialed in the fuel pressure on the regulator to 100 psi. Using a graduated cylinder i got a flow rate of 560 cc in 30 seconds. That is 1120 cc/min at 100psi static pressure. Atomization looked pretty good for water. Hopefully my injector is far enough away from the throttle plates that i have a well mixed mixture going through the primary and secondary ports of both rotors. When i have some spare time i will try checking flow rate at 75 psi which should be close to the effective pressure difference when the car is at full boost. I need to do some more testing with frequency. I was recommended to use 30Hz by a forum member running a similar setup. The one thing i noticed is that the solenoid is pretty loud. Although i doubt you will be able to hear it over the exhaust.
On a positive note, i dialed in the fuel pressure on the regulator to 100 psi. Using a graduated cylinder i got a flow rate of 560 cc in 30 seconds. That is 1120 cc/min at 100psi static pressure. Atomization looked pretty good for water. Hopefully my injector is far enough away from the throttle plates that i have a well mixed mixture going through the primary and secondary ports of both rotors. When i have some spare time i will try checking flow rate at 75 psi which should be close to the effective pressure difference when the car is at full boost. I need to do some more testing with frequency. I was recommended to use 30Hz by a forum member running a similar setup. The one thing i noticed is that the solenoid is pretty loud. Although i doubt you will be able to hear it over the exhaust.
11-03-08, 01:12 PM
#38
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: st. louis
Posts: 1,000
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
whoops, i just checked my order. i did buy new fittings. The inlet and return ports are -8 straight cut oring. the fitting they send with it is -8 oring -8 an flare. I might try a new oring.
If i were you i would use 2 solenoids and clock them at 90 degrees to each other, something similar to howards setup.
If i were you i would use 2 solenoids and clock them at 90 degrees to each other, something similar to howards setup.
11-03-08, 07:13 PM
#39
I'm on a Boat!
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: OK
Posts: 1,824
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you expecting your one 1200cc to come up short of your goal? I'm actually running a "similar" turbo to yours, A-spec's GT3574 I won't be aiming to break 500 hp but anything over 450 willbe good with me.
HC's setup will be hard to duplicate, he has no power steering, that's how he put the solenoid in the 6 o'clock position. I don't plan on ditching the PS any time soon so if I went with 2 solenoids I'de have to figure out another way to plumb them in. But that's the direction i'm leaning toward anyway.
HC's setup will be hard to duplicate, he has no power steering, that's how he put the solenoid in the 6 o'clock position. I don't plan on ditching the PS any time soon so if I went with 2 solenoids I'de have to figure out another way to plumb them in. But that's the direction i'm leaning toward anyway.
11-04-08, 04:23 AM
#40
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: st. louis
Posts: 1,000
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if my estimates are right, the 1200cc/min solenoid should be ok for my goals. The thing is that i am not getting 1200cc/min at the moment, only 1100cc/min. Furthermore, when i build boost, the flow rate is going to be decreased further. Assuming a linear relationship between flowrate and pressure difference, at 25 psi i will be getting 3/4 of the flow rate so effectively 725cc/min. If i run out of alcohol injector on the dyno i will add another solenoid and switch to a regulator that i can run using rising rate.
As far as your setup, i bet one solenoid could do it. im not familiar with FDs so i cant give you any suggestions on solenoid placement.
i dropped the tank to deal with the leaky regulator. I ended up replacing an oring on the inlet from the pump, that seemed to solve that. The one wierd thing i noticed is that when the system is pressurised it does not leak. When i turn off the pump the return fitting leaks. This makes no sense to me but i think i am going to switch out that oring and see if it fixes the problem. for any body thinking about using a fuel pressure regulator DO NOT use the mallory unit. It is a pos. the oring grooves are not cut correctly, i had to use a thicker oring to keep it from leaking. If i continue to have issues with it i will switch to the weldon regulator that howard is running.
As far as your setup, i bet one solenoid could do it. im not familiar with FDs so i cant give you any suggestions on solenoid placement.
i dropped the tank to deal with the leaky regulator. I ended up replacing an oring on the inlet from the pump, that seemed to solve that. The one wierd thing i noticed is that when the system is pressurised it does not leak. When i turn off the pump the return fitting leaks. This makes no sense to me but i think i am going to switch out that oring and see if it fixes the problem. for any body thinking about using a fuel pressure regulator DO NOT use the mallory unit. It is a pos. the oring grooves are not cut correctly, i had to use a thicker oring to keep it from leaking. If i continue to have issues with it i will switch to the weldon regulator that howard is running.
11-07-08, 07:27 PM
#41
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: st. louis
Posts: 1,000
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
got everything sealed up and ready to go to the dyno the 29-30th.
Did a quick test to see the lowest % i can run on my haltech and it still sprays at 10%. It atomizes quite well. I am pretty happy with it. If i have time i will create a curve of flowrate vs % on the pwm output. I have a feeling that it should be linear. I also need to drop the pressure to 75 psi and check the flowrate so i have some idea of how much i will be spraying at full boost. I should be able to get around to this after i fix my leaky oil pan.
Did a quick test to see the lowest % i can run on my haltech and it still sprays at 10%. It atomizes quite well. I am pretty happy with it. If i have time i will create a curve of flowrate vs % on the pwm output. I have a feeling that it should be linear. I also need to drop the pressure to 75 psi and check the flowrate so i have some idea of how much i will be spraying at full boost. I should be able to get around to this after i fix my leaky oil pan.
11-29-08, 10:21 PM
#44
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: st. louis
Posts: 1,000
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
max power 409.2, max torque 305.7
i dont have a log of the ait but steve said that it was 75 before the ai hit, 65 after the ai hit. We had ignition issues keeping us from going higher. I will switch plugs and add a ignition amp and try again in spring
11-30-08, 03:24 AM
#45
I'm on a Boat!
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: OK
Posts: 1,824
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not Bad, Few questions...
1. looks like you were hitting just over 17psi?
2. What octane is your gas?
3. how did the FJO system perform?
4. Do you know your max DC for both fuel and alky?
Glad to see you got a good tune to enjoy the car with. I was hoping you'd be able to push your AI a little further to see how far the 1200cc solenoid would go.
But anyway, congrats on the #s
1. looks like you were hitting just over 17psi?
2. What octane is your gas?
3. how did the FJO system perform?
4. Do you know your max DC for both fuel and alky?
Glad to see you got a good tune to enjoy the car with. I was hoping you'd be able to push your AI a little further to see how far the 1200cc solenoid would go.
But anyway, congrats on the #s
11-30-08, 04:10 AM
#46
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: st. louis
Posts: 1,000
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1. peak boost was 17.23psi
2. 93 octane pump
3. the fjo system performed quite well, we did not have any issues. we did not use much meth what so ever.
4. I have not checked the map yet, i set the meth to come on at 10psi and max out at 18 or 19 psi in my base map, im not sure if steve changed it. not sure on the duty cycle of the injectors, i will have to check the map
2. 93 octane pump
3. the fjo system performed quite well, we did not have any issues. we did not use much meth what so ever.
4. I have not checked the map yet, i set the meth to come on at 10psi and max out at 18 or 19 psi in my base map, im not sure if steve changed it. not sure on the duty cycle of the injectors, i will have to check the map
11-30-08, 10:26 AM
#47
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
congratulations on your project. it must be especially nice since you have designed a unique system and had to work thru a number of frustrating problems.
just a couple of observations on your first dyno runs...
i have an extensive dyno file that i keep for comparative purposes. one of the benchmarks i use to judge hp under the curve is at what rpm is 200 rwhp reached. generally the range is between 4000 and 5400. a few gt35s have reached 200 a hair below 4000. you made 200 at approx 4275 which is pretty good considering you have a 500+ hp setup w the GT500 and your bridgeport.
as mentioned, you have an ignition issue. your motor substantially underperforms as it gets into the rpm area where it should really rip. this is not meant to be viewed as a negative comment. it is merely how it is and it should be simple to get on the other side of 500 once various things get fixed.
your AFRs are quite conservative. anything w a 10 on it which is where you were at higher rpms costs alot of hp. your boost dips from 17+ to low 16s near the top also. of course these things could be related and Steve was probably just being initially conservative w the tune as well as recognizing that you may have had an ignition problem.
generally when you start adding a fair amount of meth your torque gains over 20+ pounds so the 305 number looks conservative.
i have made over 100 runs (2000-8000 4th gear) on the dyno w my two meth setups so you did just fine for your first outing. i am sure as you work the tune and bugs you will be smiling.
i do think you should refixture your system so you can run pressures in the triple digits. while meth requires less pressure than water to atomise you really need 100 psi to do it right. the Weldon A2040 ($220 from Kinser) is the ticket.
i will call my contact and see if they can offer the reg w smaller ports that directly fit the proper AN lines so we don't have to add a bunch of adaptive fittings.
for those who wish to run one 1200 solenoid... from my experience 1200 will work very well for delivering enough meth to make comfortably above 500 rw.
i prefer running 2 smaller solenoids but as long as you have 80 pounds of net pressure at the rail you are fine as per FJO.
as most of you know, you tune for the same AFR using meth as pumpgas. my engine shows no knock in the low 13 AFR w meth but i wouldn't tune it there. the high 11s are easy as long as knock and egt (pre turbo 1600) are o k.
next spring we are going to further refine AFRs as we might find we can move into higher values as long as there is no knock and the egts are o k.
having a loggable preturbo EGT is essential for precise tuning. we found we could add a bunch of timing in spool areas as we were too cold on spool egts. you would have never been able to make that change looking at the AFRs which were fine.
ignition? it takes less ignition than using water as an injectant. (this is not a knock on water... it is just a fact). i run two amps and 2 coils... one each on my lead sparkplugs. i run stock trail and my T plugs look great. my ignition fired a 9.0 AFR mixture without a stutter. why i was at 9.0 is another question.
anyway, these are just a few thoughts. there is a ton of upside to your setup and i believe if you tune it right you may forget how to remove and install your motor.
i just removed my motor after 4 years and took it all apart. it was running perfectly but i wanted to see how it was inside.
really clean is the answer. thanks to the alcohol. no carbon anywhere near the seals. a light dusting of carbon on the rotor faces. side seal wear in 14,000 miles was one thou!!! from a motor that made 498 rwhp. i will replace all the springs and put it back together. it will be a on the shelf motor as i am building a new bullet that has NRS ceramic seals and advanced design features.
again, congrats on really accomplishing something that many others will follow you on..
howard
just a couple of observations on your first dyno runs...
i have an extensive dyno file that i keep for comparative purposes. one of the benchmarks i use to judge hp under the curve is at what rpm is 200 rwhp reached. generally the range is between 4000 and 5400. a few gt35s have reached 200 a hair below 4000. you made 200 at approx 4275 which is pretty good considering you have a 500+ hp setup w the GT500 and your bridgeport.
as mentioned, you have an ignition issue. your motor substantially underperforms as it gets into the rpm area where it should really rip. this is not meant to be viewed as a negative comment. it is merely how it is and it should be simple to get on the other side of 500 once various things get fixed.
your AFRs are quite conservative. anything w a 10 on it which is where you were at higher rpms costs alot of hp. your boost dips from 17+ to low 16s near the top also. of course these things could be related and Steve was probably just being initially conservative w the tune as well as recognizing that you may have had an ignition problem.
generally when you start adding a fair amount of meth your torque gains over 20+ pounds so the 305 number looks conservative.
i have made over 100 runs (2000-8000 4th gear) on the dyno w my two meth setups so you did just fine for your first outing. i am sure as you work the tune and bugs you will be smiling.
i do think you should refixture your system so you can run pressures in the triple digits. while meth requires less pressure than water to atomise you really need 100 psi to do it right. the Weldon A2040 ($220 from Kinser) is the ticket.
i will call my contact and see if they can offer the reg w smaller ports that directly fit the proper AN lines so we don't have to add a bunch of adaptive fittings.
for those who wish to run one 1200 solenoid... from my experience 1200 will work very well for delivering enough meth to make comfortably above 500 rw.
i prefer running 2 smaller solenoids but as long as you have 80 pounds of net pressure at the rail you are fine as per FJO.
as most of you know, you tune for the same AFR using meth as pumpgas. my engine shows no knock in the low 13 AFR w meth but i wouldn't tune it there. the high 11s are easy as long as knock and egt (pre turbo 1600) are o k.
next spring we are going to further refine AFRs as we might find we can move into higher values as long as there is no knock and the egts are o k.
having a loggable preturbo EGT is essential for precise tuning. we found we could add a bunch of timing in spool areas as we were too cold on spool egts. you would have never been able to make that change looking at the AFRs which were fine.
ignition? it takes less ignition than using water as an injectant. (this is not a knock on water... it is just a fact). i run two amps and 2 coils... one each on my lead sparkplugs. i run stock trail and my T plugs look great. my ignition fired a 9.0 AFR mixture without a stutter. why i was at 9.0 is another question.
anyway, these are just a few thoughts. there is a ton of upside to your setup and i believe if you tune it right you may forget how to remove and install your motor.
i just removed my motor after 4 years and took it all apart. it was running perfectly but i wanted to see how it was inside.
really clean is the answer. thanks to the alcohol. no carbon anywhere near the seals. a light dusting of carbon on the rotor faces. side seal wear in 14,000 miles was one thou!!! from a motor that made 498 rwhp. i will replace all the springs and put it back together. it will be a on the shelf motor as i am building a new bullet that has NRS ceramic seals and advanced design features.
again, congrats on really accomplishing something that many others will follow you on..
howard
11-30-08, 03:54 PM
#49
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: st. louis
Posts: 1,000
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did not have my egt setup finished in time. I have 2 of the teamrip egt probes. The E8 can only log 1 egt signal. I am working on a way of logging both egts with the haltech.
I am definitely going to go to a different regulator. I would like to see how the pump is holding up so i think i am going to get a pressure transducer and monitor meth pressure.
The tune is pretty conservative, steve did not want to push it further because of the ignition issues. From what i have read i will probably go with different plugs and an ignition box on the leading.
I am definitely going to go to a different regulator. I would like to see how the pump is holding up so i think i am going to get a pressure transducer and monitor meth pressure.
The tune is pretty conservative, steve did not want to push it further because of the ignition issues. From what i have read i will probably go with different plugs and an ignition box on the leading.
12-01-08, 03:37 PM
#50
FD pro licensed driver
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Renton/Bellevue/Seattle WA
Posts: 2,897
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
I did not have my egt setup finished in time. I have 2 of the teamrip egt probes. The E8 can only log 1 egt signal. I am working on a way of logging both egts with the haltech.
I am definitely going to go to a different regulator. I would like to see how the pump is holding up so i think i am going to get a pressure transducer and monitor meth pressure.
The tune is pretty conservative, steve did not want to push it further because of the ignition issues. From what i have read i will probably go with different plugs and an ignition box on the leading.
I am definitely going to go to a different regulator. I would like to see how the pump is holding up so i think i am going to get a pressure transducer and monitor meth pressure.
The tune is pretty conservative, steve did not want to push it further because of the ignition issues. From what i have read i will probably go with different plugs and an ignition box on the leading.
Thanks and congrats!
~Tweak