Hi!

I have read all the sticky threads about water injection and have now started to tune my own fd3s. I am currently spraying 315 cc/min (M5 nozzle) with a simple pressure activated system with a 150 PSI pump.

My setup is:

13B REW
3 mm apex seals
2 extra dowelpins
850/1680
TB70 turbo http://www.turbobandit.com/shop/
3,5" dp
FMIC
Apexi pfc
Stock fd coilpack
Circuit sport ignition amplifier (does the same thing as HKS twinpower)
BUR9EQ all around
Stock LIM and UIM

Im currently at 1,35 bar (19,56 PSI) and running a little bit rich (10,4-10,8 AFR) so the ignition has some problems burning all that gasoline and water. The ignition breakup only occur at the lowest AFR (10,4). So my plan is to lean it out to about 11,0. As long as im around 10,8-11,0 the car drives great. Max dutycycle is 88%. I start spraying water at 10 PSI. Im not logging EGT:s sadly. At 1,35 bar (19,56 PSI) my ignition advance is 10-12 degrees at peak torque (pfc settings) and 14 degrees at 6400-8000 rpm.

My question is:

Am i spraying to little water? 315 cc was recommended for around 450 hp but i think im passed that now. I have another nozzle rated at 760 cc/min (M12) but i think its too large? Wich amount of water should i be running for a safe tune at aprox 1,3-1,5 bar boost (18,8 - 21,7 PSI)? And is my ignition timing too agressive?

And finaly: How much water can i expect my ignition to burn? What would the best ignition upgrade be for me now? New coils like the MSD blaster ss ones?

Any help regarding my tuning would be much appriciated!

Thanks for your time!

Olle Lindén

Edit: im spraying post IC and water only.

 

Olle,
I would spray more.
I was spraying 800cc for that location (post intercooler) with 50/50 meth/water.
I spray 360cc/min pre-turbo and 800cc/min post intercooler now.
Barry

 

I can not give you advice on the tuning, sorry. I know a little, but not enough to give advice. Water does seem really light though. I would start at around 500cc.

Out of curiouslity, what is your knock at?

As far as your ignition goes, I would purchase a new OEM leading coil, and upgrade your plugs to NGK race plugs (R6725). 450-500whp can benefit from a 10 heat range.

I know some people who have had no issues with your configuration with good plugs. I will be pushing around 550cc of a 50/50 mix with the following ignition.

New OEM leading coil
NGK R6725-10 plugs
Magnecore 10mm wires
HKS Twin power

Hoping to make around 500whp.

After that, you will need to ditch the OEM coils and twin power for a stronger setup. As the power goes up, the amount of water being sprayed will go up. This of course requires more and more igntion capability. There are some serious ignition setups out there. The PFC does have limits though. Just search.

 

Thanks Barry!

I was thinking that 315 cc was a little bit too little. I think i will try my 760cc nozzle out and see if the ignition can fire it.

If you were spraying 800 cc W/M that would be around 400 cc water? But additional cooling will also come from 400 cc methanol in you case. That really puts my 315 cc in perspective.

What AFR and lead timing do you recommend at around 500-550 crank hp? I understand that you can not give me a real number because every setup is different but maby a recommendation considering my setup above?

I see no knock at all (readings at around 0-15) under boost.

Maby i need to buy another nozzle again that is rated at around 500 cc?

As i wrote above, ignition will be my main concern...

Thanks!

Olle Lindén

 

Thanks for your input! =)

I think if i would buy a new leading coil i would rather buy the MSD units when im at it. Or does the stock FC coils work better then the FD ones?

Sound like your ignition setup will have a easier time to fire the mixture mostly because of you injecting 50/50 water/meth. That would be 275 cc water wich would be easier to ignite. Have you noticed any ignition breakup with that amount?

I only had ignition breakup at AFR 10,4 but as it was leaning out after the torque peak, the engine could ignite the mixture. Actually the car was crazy fast last "tuning session" i had with it at a highway near home =) (middle of the night, so dont worry about other people coming in my way ;-))

Any suggestions on ignition upgrades? I want to keep my circuit sport amplifier for now tho. Was mainly interested in new coils of some sort.

//Olle Lindén

 

FC coils are said to be a little stronger. Personally, I think it has to do with their remote mounting location. Heat is extremely hard on electronics, and Mazda put them right in the soup with FD's. Couple that with 15+ years of use, you get the picture.

A new FD coil is aorund $150 from Ray. FC is quite a bit more expensive new, thus just purchasing the FD.

As far as aftermarket coils go, I'm not sure what will work with the PFC, and amplifier.

I have yet to tune on my setup. Unfortunately, it is just speculation at this point. Coming soon....

 

Hmm $150 is pretty much! A new blaster ss is around $40... there is a guy here in Sweden that runs HKS twin power and MSD blaster ss coils. Seems to work great. What im interested in is, if changing my stock fd leading coil to 2 MSD blaster ss will have any improvements on my leading spark?

 

I'm pretty sure the blaster coils will not work with a PFC. FD coils have an internal ignitor, the blaster coils do not. A Microtech, Haltech, or other standalones that have ignitors can support them.

I am no expert on ignitions. There is a ton of experience here if someone could chime in on this.

 

Ohh, i didnt know that! Then i guess the AEM smart coil would work as it has a ignitor built in?

Check this one out: http://www.aemelectronics.com/high-o...mart-coil-1240

 

=/ would 300 CC be to little for about stock power in the low 300whp? is there a guide to this?

( on stock twins )

 

I would say that is perfect! Altho i dont know if your ignition could handle it if you where using stock ignition without an amplifier?

Look at Howard´s sticky threads about this in the AI section. You can see from the thread about nozzle delivery sizing that you should spray aprox (300/0,85) = 352 chp wich gives the amount of water: (3,52*63)*1,1 = 244 cc/min. So you would probably be fine with 300 cc.

/Olle

 

So i went to the garage today and flow tested my nozzles.

The one (M5) Coolingmist claims spray 380 cc/min did just spray 250 cc... So i figured something wasn´t right. So i googled a little and found that i can set the pump working pressure by one screw in the front of the pump. So i turned the screw a few turns and the pump started to puls faster. And there was also a clear difference in atomization from the nozzle.

So i played with it for a while and got the pump to sound really good. It actually sound better and more relaxed when it pulsate faster than slower. I remeasured my M5 nozzle and it now flows 400-405 cc/min (i did the test two times back to back).

It´s a little scary considering i boosted 1,35 bar and was only spraying 250 cc. I am now keen on getting out there again and try the new flowrate out. Just by looking at the flow the nozzle puts out, it´s really easy to see the difference to what it was before when it did spray 250cc.

Oh, and i checked the bigger nozzle (M12, rated at 760 cc by Coolingmist) and it was just spraying 577 cc. After i raised the pressure it was spraying 789 cc. That is crazy much when you look at it! I can not understand how any ignition could fire that!

I will report back when my mate is home from New York so i can get out and start mapping again.

//Olle

 

BTW, i can see in your avatar that you are from Miami? I went to Miami this october 2011 for a whole month and stayed at a hotel right across the Delano. One day a FD3S came driving by. A red one =) Wich color is yours?

/Olle

 

I ran 325cc of windshield wiper fluid (which is mostly water) for many years, power levels exceeding 500 rwhp and boost as high as 22 psi. Never had an issue, on track or otherwise.

I've since upped the amount to 525cc and 70/30 mix of WM.

 

This is what i want to hear ;-)

Wiper fluid, isn´t that 98% ethanol? Here in Sweden it consists of 98% ethanol. But i guess you did mix it 50/50?

525 on 70/30 would be 367,5 cc of water. And then som additional cooling from the methanol. I start to think that 400 cc of 100% water should be fine in my case.

 

windshield wiper fluid is mostly water, around 85%.

You do not want to run straight water, as it has a propensity to freeze in temps below 0 degrees

 

I would double check that label. I don't think the little washer pumps and lines in washer tanks would withstand almost pure ethanol for very long. Not to mention the cost of manufacturing it.

 

Hmmm, i have the bottle right here.. It says "koncentrated windshield washer fluid" and is rated at 98% ethanol. offcourse you mix it before you put it in the tank. Last winter we had -26,5F for several days and thats why we blend it 50/50 so it doesn´t freeze. But it still turns to ice when you are driving along and spray the windshield because the ethanol evaporates but the water stays...

There is also a small amount of 2-propanol and Butanol in the fluid.

It is very cheap as well. $27 for 2,642 gal.

http://www.biltema.se/sv/Bilvard/Spo...rvatska-36500/

 

Hehe, then i guess we have different windshield washer fluids then.
The car is a track car only so it will never see temperatures below 0 C =)

 

Right, but you just said in your post above that you get winters below freezing, so I'm not really sure you understand the implications of having straight water in your tank and lines...... even sitting in the garage.

 

oh, you mean like if i let it sit in a garage at the same temperature as outside. My garage never sees lower temperatures than 64 F so i guess ill be fine =) But thanks for the input!

The pic below is where i store my car. As you can see my friend is wearing a T-shirt and the pic is taken in the middle of the winter. So its pretty warm in there =)

 

As HC says, it's "not carved in stone"...but unless I'm missing something, from reading his post you might actually be a little on the small side in terms of nozzle sizing.

FWIW, I spray water-only with a 150 psi pump on an M3 nozzle post-IC/pre-TB set at 2 psi. I'm on stock ignition, stock plugs and (nearly) stock boost and have no ignition break-up/issues at all.

 

Get some NGK R7420's in that engine.

BUR7EQ/BUR9EQ are my 2nd favourite plugs BUT I found they got heavy wear on the surface discharge area. Which opens the gap, also their standard gap is too high for a high performance car.

Interestingly R7420-9 in the leading spark plug hole seems to run colder than R7420-105 in the trailing hole.

If I had a choice I would probably use a hotter leading plug, but I don't so I will probably buy R7420-11 for trailing plugs next time I buy some.

I think if you want to use rich mixtures and water properly you really need CDI. I'm still using a standard FC3S ignition system and I only changed from standard plugs to R7420's about a year ago.

 

Ok, but my BUR9EQ was working flawless for the whole last season. And im on the same set of plugs this season too, so i better not change a winning concept =) Btw, i was boosting 1,2 bar (17,4 PSI) last season without any water injection. The car worked perfectly for 30 min sprints around the track in 77 F. This year i want to boost a little bit more and felt like the water injection was necessary to to this regarding the risk of detonation.

But as i said, i will update as quick as i´ve started mapping again (i´ts been raining the whole weekend and the temp is currently 41 F outside...).

 

Olle L,

You might want to check this thread on quantity and effects of injectorants.
https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/conservative-limits-injectorants-1000500/

Barry