I have been doing a lot of research on AI, and I am really leaning towards a 100% methanol solution. The car is a NASA time attack car (Road racing) so I am looking for a tune able solution (HD-AI). The only 100% methanol kit that I have found is the alkycontrol. This kit looks like a nice kit for drag racing on piston motors (narrow power band, methanol consumption is not a big concern), however for road racing where RPMS are all over the place it seems like the control method isn’t sufficient.

Let me explain, on my current setup I am injecting 1462cc/min of fuel at 14psi @ 4000rpms and 2494cc/min at 14psi @7500rpms (taken from my fuel map).

The “sweet spot” of Methanol to Gas ratio from my research seems to be 20%-25%.

Let’s look at the Alkycontrol system; this system is dependent on boost pressure ONLY. So if I tune the Alkycontrol system for 25% Alcohol to Gas ratio at 14PSI @ 4000RPMS I will need to inject 365cc/min of Alcohol.

Now when I am at 14psi @ 7500rpms the Alkycontrol system will still be injecting 365cc/min. So at this point I will be injecting 2494cc/min of gas and 365cc/min of alcohol which results in a 14% ratio of alcohol to Gas. This ratio is to low for my liking, if I were to tune it for 25% of alcohol to gas at 14psi@7500rpms I will need to inject 623cc/min of alcohol. Tuning it this way, I will now be at 14psi@4000rpms and will be injecting 1462cc/min of gas and 623cc/min alcohol which results in a 43% alcohol to gas ratio. This ratio is excess and is just burning more alcohol then needed and may be hurting performance as well ( I would like to use a 5Gal fuel cell for Methanol, and would like to keep a 25% alcohol to gas ratio storage.. eg, 20gal gas fuel cell and 5 gal methanol fuel cell).

* I know my gas being injected would be slightly reduced when injecting methanol, however the ratio gap between rpms will be pretty similar.*

Now I would really like to find a tune able system, the FJO 2nd Gen Water-Methanol kit is pretty much exactly what I want, but for a Methanol only not a 50/50 (methanol / water) mix. I was thinking of purchasing this kit, and modifying it for methanol only however it looks like this kit is now discontinued and modification seems to increase the cost of an already expensive system.

Does anyone know of any 100% Methanol kits that use a fuel map for injection, and uses an injector type valve to control flow rather the line pressure?

I have been thinking of designing a custom setup, which would pretty much be a secondary electronic fuel injection system. Would use a fuel computer (maybe megasquirt) with a MAP and RPM input and a 2d fuel table to control a fuel injector. The sourcing seems a bit difficult, and custom parts would need to be fabricated (brass fuel rails, fuel lines, Methanol rated fuel Pump, Methanol rated fuel injectors, etc.) I have been searching to see if anyone else is running something like this, but no luck.

I would like to know peoples feedback on Alkycontrol system, perhaps my understanding is a bit off?

I would like to know if anyone knows of a AI kit, which is 100% Methanol approved and has a tune-able map.

I would like to know if anyone has seen or made a custom kit as the one I am thinking of making, and could you point me in the build.

Thank you for any feedback, or help.

 

Hi Trainwreck.

I'm exactly in your position and will be following this as you go along. Could be as simple as using lets say a HFS-6 system from aquamist but use an alkycontrol pump? This would be the last stage before building a new seperate methanol fuel system ala Howard Coleman.

Great thread in any case.

Henri

 

I did some research on the HFS-6 system, and the biggest turn off was the tuning method. I felt the using potentiometers to tune the system is inconsistent. I also think the tolerance (of the potentiometers) is poor when it comes to ambient temperatures, and changes may occur from the vibration of being in a race car.

The Element Hydramist Kits seem to be very nice as well, but would need to use a different pump. I am also unsure if there valves or fittings will survive 100% methanol.

I hope Howard Colemon could shine in, as I really liked his modified FJO kit.

-Alvaro

 

I would like to contribute a little.

All wmi systems on the market use an epdm based shurflo, flojet or aquatec pump. Without exception. They are all 100% methanol resistant (the "R" word as HC often mentioned) but in time the methanol will wash away the plastizer within (an additive to make the diaphragm more pliable). Unfornatune the pump seal and the diaphragm is a one-piece construction.

You must be aware that there are market forces at work and hypes of on 100% methanol compatible with custom partnership with manufacturer, 250psi pump etc, so don't take them as gospel. It may be true, but material property remains the same.

Howard has been through all that and opted for a fuel pump instead, moved away from the claims and counter claims of the marketing force. He is very wise.

The aquamist's pump can work upto 250psi with some adjustments and a stronger pass-by spring. Why? 160psi is more than adequate for any wmi application. Since the system is a PWM valve system, we don't need to increase flow by speeding up the pump. Putting undue stress will the tax the long term reliability of the system.

As regarding the potentiometer on our system, I wouild like to clarify....

The construction of a potentiometer is different from a trimmer. Potentiometer's wiper pressure on the carbon track is much less than those of a trimmer. This is because of wear as a potentiometer is used constantly compared to trimmer, A trimmer is used no more more than 10 times in its entire servcing life.

For this reason, it is more stable and less drift than a potentiometer, in expense of a service life fo ~50 cycles, rather 1000+ cycles.

For the mappng side, a trimmer based system offers 10-bit resolution (>1000 steps) compared to a 16x16 grid map-based system. as regarding mechanical resolution, we can offer a 10-turn trimmer instead of 1/2T trimmer (as used on our summer unit).

Lastly, why have two fuel maps where one will do just ae well.

That is my two cent. I can here to help further if you like to ask me more questions.

 

there are alot of claims in this industry thats very sad. Marketing at its finest. For instance, there was a company that used a "high speed valve" from an ink jet printer and said they made them in house and were custom made for water/meth injection and they were so fast...blah blah blah. They had a pump that they fixed at 125 PSI because they could not get any more back pressure on the ink jet valve.

you can see a picture of the valve below, some of you will recognize it.

http://www.docod.biz/view.asp?id=585

Moral of the story? Always be wary of claims.

 

Hi Richard,

First off I would like to thank you for providing feedback. I think it is great that a company such as Aquamist takes time to provide feedback on public forums.

First, could you clarify how your system works? I am under the impression that the pump runs at 160psi then the "Flow Control Module" both measures the water flow as well as has some sort of valve to control the water flow to the jet. Please correct me if I my understanding is wrong.

I just read through the whole HSF-6 Manual, and must admit that I like the method of measuring fuel flow from duty cycles to help control the flow of the AI system. I spent a few hours trying in find flaws in the design of your system, but didn’t come up with anything. My only concern is how does one tune the system accurately? Let me explain with the picture below:



I made this Excel sheet when trying to find flaws in your system however everything looks pretty good. I based my formulas on the information from the installation manuals. If you see anything that is incorrect, please correct me. I have made the following assumptions:

1. The Flow Control Module works similar that as a fuel injector (Control duty cycle to control flow, duty cycle is linear to flow output, 50% duty cycle results in 50% flow).

2. The Pump Trimmer controls WHEN the pump corrections kick in, not the percentage (2.5V is default, but can be changed to 2.0V or 3V for example).

3. Fuel Pump Correction is ALWAYS 4% per MAP Volt.

4. The tuning of the IDC is by adding or subtracting to the Fuel Injector Duty Cycle (I tune the IDC to inject 3.5% less then my fuel injector).

So for this example I would adjust the “IDC TRIM” to subtract 3.5% of my fuel duty cycle. Now the question is: how will I know when I have tuned it to subtract 3.5%? I know I turn the trimmer, but how do I know when it’s -3.5%? I could easily subtract -5% and not know and the car would still run fine.

I feel the only thing missing from your unit would be some kind of data logging to know what exactly the unit is doing, If the unit was showing it was injecting -3.5% (ignoring Pump correction) of the Injector duty cycle then I would know my mixture is spot on at 25%

I hope everything is clear and makes sense.

Here is the actual Excel sheet if you want to see my formulas, please correct me if you see anything that is wrong:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6481264/AI-calculations.xls

I also have a few other questions:

What modifications are needed to reliably run 100% Methanol in this system (HSF-6)?

What is the expect pump life when using 100% Methanol?

Is the pump rebuild-able?

Thank you for your time,
-Alvaro G.

 

Thank you for the info,
-Alvaro

 

trainwreck517,

I am a but confused with your pump correction term, I think I know what you mean after reading it a few times.

The HFS-6 system is similar to a conventional fuel injection system with the exception of a mechanical "return to tank" fuel pressure regulator. In order to minimise the complexity and cost of a twin methanol line plus a methanol compatible fuel pressure regulator. We opted for a idc% correction. It is simple but there is a limitation. For example, if your fuel duty cycle % approaches 95%, with a 9.4% correction (per your calculation), it is not going to happen. the system can not corerct beyond 100% dc. In this situation, you need to lower the entire curve with the "IDC Trim" trimmer.

The entire HFS-6 is a signal processor, each trimmer is based on a fixed formula. I am not sure if you have downloaded our excel shher where you can enter a number into each trimmer and you will see the chart changes.

The interaction of all those curves is almost impossible to imagine without some visual aid, our excel (dudtool) will help. I think you can dowenload it on our forum.

As regarding setting 3 or 3.5% on the trimmer. You are absolutely correct, for a 90-100% accuracy these trimmers will not do. the linearity and tolerance is way below your expectations. So we offer multi-turn potentiometers if the unit is purchased directly from us for a few dollars. Trimmers are not ideal but this is the next best thing than carrying a lap top around everytime you want to alter the methanol/fuel curve. The concept behind the HFS-6 is "totally self-contain", all you need is a small screw driver.

I don't think the HFS-6 is what you are looking for because you only want to have a fixed ratio between the fuel and methanol, ability to alter the methanol curve relative to fuel is not needed.

I therefore suggest a HFS-3, it only have two trimmers, one to set the start and the other re-scale the the F-IDC. It does have manifold pressure compensation algorithm, but runs full time and at a fixed 70% 30% split. For absolute accuracy, a "return to tank" fuel pressure regulator is recommended.

It is a pity that our summer module is no longer in production, a set up like this will suit you perfectly, 99% accurate. It was sold at $120 at time, just add a fast acting valve and a pump.

 

Richard,

You are correct, and I understand that the pump correction algorithm only works until you hit 100% duty cycle on the IDC.

Looking at the HFS-3, it does seem to meet my needs to a point but still has the short falls of tuning it accurately without some sort of feedback or data logging where I can see what duty cycles the unit is providing to the IDC.

The summer module is truly impressive, I am kind of bummed that I didn't know about it sooner. Even without the feedback, I would have just hooked up an oscilloscope on the valve while the car was on the dyno and tune it from there to get a 25% ratio. Then just set it and forget it.

Now I have a question, would something like your HFS-3 system be able to drive a standard fuel injector?
What I had in mind was using a Methanol Rated fuel pump, fuel PR, fuel rail, etc. and use the HFS-3 to control a fuel injector? That way I can very accurately (Can easily calculate the cc/min flow rate of a fuel injector at a given pressure and duty cycle) tune the unit to deliver required methanol I need.

Also, I sent you a PM regarding your Summer unit.

 

The HFS-3 has a user port (not often used), I can make available a final IDC output that can be used for monitoring WMI activity. 0-5V = 0-100% DC. You don't need to use a scope just a voltmeter. There are other benifits on the HFS-3, there are 30 test points on board to diagnostic purposes.

The summer module was developed specifically for the RX7 and it has serves the community well, a solution that overcomes the strange staging of the two injector sets. I have been contacted by a few people since the last summer was sold. If I were to re-make the summer, it will have inbuild IDC threshold to activate the pump and inline valve so no need to use a mechanical pressure switch.

Answer to your question on HFS-3:
The HFS-3 have an output capability of 2A, and easily drive one or two 16 ohm fuel injector (~800/1.6A). Obviously you need to have a high current relay interface to switch the methanol pump.

The fuel injector has very linear response to IDC especially driven from a costant frequency PWM signal, no need to calculate latency. There is something you might like to be aware of, 100% methanol has no lubricating properties so quite hard on the injector pintos and seat, in time, leak can occur.

Got your pm

 

Alvaro

I fogot to add, the whole reason behind the IDC tracking concept system is simplistic in tuning two fuels, gasoline and methanol.

The engine ECU's fuel map is based on multiple sensors. Unless the 16x 16 table wmi system does the same, it is never going to match the fuel flow. Also there is a large amount of correction table such as injector lantency/voltage, engine temperature, accelleration and decelleration enrichment etc. These are just a few variables on top of the main signals of MAP sensor, air temperature and RPM. Even you put all those sensors on a HD-AI system, how do you know how the factory ECU treating those signals and finally translated then into flow flow.

For this reason alone, we designed all our systems to track fuel flow. Each time you remap fuel, the wmi system automatically makes correction. The HFS-6 and HFS-3 has been in service for a while and produce good afr on all load and RPM, from part throttle to full throttle at any RPM. This algorithm is well proven. Since the launch of the HFS-3, system cost is no longer a reason for the "budget sensitive" individuals.

 

Sounds like Richard is moments from saying he will start producing the summer units again!!!

 

Richard,

An HFS-3 with a 0-5V output that reflects the IDC duty cycle would be greatly helpful. One could easily datalog this on the FC-Datalogit and adjust the "IDC Trimmer" until the targeted duty ratio is achieved for the target ratio.

I am glad to hear that the HFS-3 could drive a Fuel Injector, as that is likely the route I will take.

I have found some Methanol rated fuel injectors that use stainless steal construction, so that is what I plan on using.


After doing some research and calculations on trying to find flaws in your IDC tracking system (didn't find any) I must say this is truly an ingenious way of controlling the AI system.

I have become very comfortable with tuning via a PC, I have tuned on Haltech, Power FC, WOLF, and Megasquirt so that was why I was after a PC based system. However after become familiar with your product line, I am almost sold on your system. The only draw back I find is accurately adjusting the "IDC trimmer" for the desired fuel ratio. However if you are able to provide a accurate 0-5V output that reflects the IDC duty cycle, I could easily make the calculations on Excel and and adjust the trimmer until I achieve the targeted duty cycle.

Thanks a lot for your help!

-Alvaro

 

Hold on. I will only do it if there is enough interest. Small batched are not economical to produce. Depending on the quanity, 20 or over, I will factor them into the final production quantity.

 

Once you have read how to the calibrate the summer, you will notice that it can be 100% accurate. Down to 1cc/min resolution.

Richard