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Vodka and Tonic mixes, some Fuel Injectors and E85 don't

Alternative Fuels Discussion and Tech on using alternatives such as E85 or Hydrogen or other fuels and/or supplements to Gasoline in Rotary Engines

Vodka and Tonic mixes, some Fuel Injectors and E85 don't

Old 10-29-14, 09:35 AM
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Vodka and Tonic mixes, some Fuel Injectors and E85 don't

as most know ethanol is the alcohol in adult beverages.

and, of course, unlike gasoline, alcohol/ethanol mixes w water.

water is everywhere. and as such, it finds its way into the ethanol component of E85.

this is no big deal as far as tuning as the % is tiny.

it is a big deal as to our fuel injectors. a very big deal.

there is a general understanding in this section that E85 shouldn't sit in our injectors for any length of time without running our engines. some think the problem might be our premix or the ethanol itself...

probably not.

rust is the deal and it is a killer. our injectors are electronic valves and open and close based on magnetism. while much of the internals are stainless steel (no rust) the crucial part needs to be iron so as to do the magnetic thing.

iron rusts.

given the extremely small clearances and movement necessary to deliver precise amounts of fuel microscopic amounts of rust can initially change the amount of fuel delivered and eventually shut the mechanism down.

i have had two learning experiences w this effect:

i structured an AI system using fuel injectors initially at my elbow and ran 100% methanol. worked perfectly. i then modded it so as to have a fuel injector preturbo to compliment one in my elbow. since part of the system was preturbo i switched to 50/50 water/meth.

in less than 2 weeks both injectors completely shut down.

i was aware of the water/injector problem but thought it might just be a maintenance item and was figuring at the worst i might have to replace them now and then.

the other experience is current. my injectors sat in my motor for a year. totally my fault but i was assuming that if they were non functioning it was just a matter of having them cleaned.

nope, they are toast as in rust.

i realise this is not news to many in this section but just thought i would share my learning experience.

especially at this time of year.

think rust.

BTW as i examine my injector options there is a new Bosch/ASNU injector (1650 is the largest) that is supposed to not rust... ID has tested them and find. according to them, that they flow a bit less. they are working on a 1750 derivative of the injector but indicate it is a year or so away...

howard

Last edited by Howard Coleman CPR; 10-29-14 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 10-29-14, 01:16 PM
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What am I reading here?
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Old 10-29-14, 03:44 PM
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how about the ID1300? plannong on using them (9 of em) on my 20b with excessive LIM and prefer it to be bulletproof/e85 friendly
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Old 10-30-14, 08:21 AM
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given that i am at 54% duty cycle w 4 2000 CC injectors on E74 (FFS) at 575 SAE and my power objective is an approx max of 600 i am going to replace my 2000s w the ASNU/Bosch 1650s.

since i will be on the dyno shortly thereafter i will have some data. there are some lengthy threads on a GTR board re the new injectors. according to ASNU, the injectors offer better resistance to the water that finds its way into our ethanol based fuel systems.

howard

Last edited by Howard Coleman CPR; 10-31-14 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 10-31-14, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Howard Coleman CPR View Post
given that i am at 54% duty cycle w 4 2000 CC injectors on E74 (FFS) at 575 SAE
How much boost ?

I maxed (90% duty) my 4x2200cc at 22-23psi on a S475
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Old 10-31-14, 10:52 AM
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25.5 psi at max power. (575 SAE, 588 STD) highest boost plot was 26.6.



while you were running less boost your turbo compressor is 9.5 sq inches V mine at 8.1 so you could be pushing more air and of course use more fuel... the 475 can make 96 pounds of air at your boost level whereas mine is less than 80 at 26. my overall setup is efficient as i get close to 20 mpg at a constant 74 mph w E74.



howard

Last edited by Howard Coleman CPR; 10-31-14 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 10-31-14, 11:19 AM
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thanks howard as preventative maintenance I give her a start once every week if she's not being used that helps from issues rising. When I purchased my Injector dynamics they had a little warning disclaimer brochure in the box. That states they should not sit on E85 without being used. They also recommend if your storing the car to flush the fuel system just run gas through them for proper storage.
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Old 10-31-14, 11:39 AM
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yes, the gas flush really is the ticket for any lengthy layup. while i am not a fuel injector expert as i understand it the 2000/2200 injectors are designed for propane and used in european busses. there is nothing wrong w the injectors but they apparently have some sort of non metallic seat that can swell w alcohol as well as a ferrite/magnetic piece that is the dynamic actuator.

either of these items can change delivery.

ASNU injectors have a stainless steel seat and apparently contain a more rust resistant dynamic component. i will be interested in both the duty cycle V my 2000s as well as their resistance to ethanol.
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Old 11-04-14, 02:16 AM
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I'm pretty sure ASNU injectors aren't 100% stainless steel internals like the ID1300's, that's why I opted for six of the ID1300 instead of something like an ID2000 or other brands that make claims of having all stainless internals. The guys at ID really know their stuff. After seeing some of the initial test results for the "1650's" I think they are a bit optimistic.

Would you be able to get by with ID1300's since you are spraying a decent amount of methanol?
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