RGHTBrainDesign

You would have to look into how the Fuel Injector is actually being controlled via the Adaptronic, but some logic trees will have it as a calculated fuel flow value in which it does in fact result in a leaner AFR. My suggestion is to add a GLOBAL fueling adjustment based off of what you see at low load usage and see how close it is to your previously tuned configuration.

Holdfast

Went for a drive to some hill roads by my house to tune the map with these injectors. I couldnt be more happy with the way it runs now. Idles smooth. Big improvement. I took a closer look at the "rx8" injectors i have. There siemans deka 44lb. Injectors with a adapter for the height. From what ive read online there a pretty good injector. Idles better than the yellow denso rx8 injectors. So im going to stick with these for now. Car is a blast to drive. It just wants to go fast. But I just got my license back. Dont want to loose it again. Plus speeding tickets are outrageously expensive in california. Having a hard time going the speed limit. I really need a track day see what this thing can do.

RGHTBrainDesign

Awesome to hear. Time to go out and shoot some canyon carving footage for us.

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Good deal, glad the fuel pressure increase and larger injectors fixed the problem! You'll definitely have to still touch up the time tune but it should be a rather easy update and not a complete overhaul. I agree that a set of ID 725s would be perfect for this application and at 60 psi they would have crazy good atomization. I disagree on the FT750 fuel filter though, its expensive and you're really only trying to protect 2x ID 725s and a NA engine from having a clog and leanout.... which isn't a big deal like on a boosted engine. I'd just get an aeromotive with the 6 micron element for like 85 bucks and be set.

Skeese

Holdfast

I have a 100 micron filter before the fuel pump and a 10 micron after the pump.

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

You'll be fine with that given it is a N/A engine even with the move to ID's. A clogged injector becomes much more problematic and carries much higher consequences when you are running big boost and lean out a rotor.

Let 'er rip tater chip

Skeese

Holdfast

Little update. Just got two Bosch ev14 750cc injectors as my primarys. Big difference in every way. Idles nice and smooth. Really gets up and goes too. Pays to get quality injectors.

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Good deal! Are you still running the 60 PSI base fuel pressure and what duty cycle are you now seeing on these injectors compared to the last set at the same WOT conditions?

Skeese

Holdfast

With the new Bosch injectors im running the pressure at 43psi. At 750cc should have no problem keeping up with this na motor. For some reason when i look at my logs its not recording the dwell. It did for the first log i recorded with these new injectors. But it was just idling in my driveway. The highest dwel recorded with the older 640cc injectors that i was running was 75%. With the new exhaust law in California its hard go WOT and keep a low profile. Because this thing is loud at wot. Last thing i need is a trip to the state bar referee station.

Slides

I'm a bit late in here but running quality and power are better if the fuel air mix in each runner is as similar as possible once above the linearity limits of the primary/sec injectors, has been proven on dyno by Andy amongst others.

if you have the option of specifying a minimum close time to limit the primaries as suguested above I would have just kept tweaking that until you were seeking similar pri/sec open time at full power.

Holdfast

i have a older Adaptronic 440d Universal Select ecu. Primary injector dwell must rise to 97% before the secondary injectors start working. The dwell is not adjustable. Even with smaller 450cc primarys the secondary injectors were never being used.

dguy

iTrader: (8)

Just so you know assembly bill 1824 doesn't actually change any of the current exhaust limitations, just enforcement. You will no longer receive a fix it ticket, but an immediate fine. Lots of people don't understand that its really the same deal as before. If you're under 6000lbs and not a bike you're not supposed to exceed 95dB per SAE J1169.

Holdfast

I live right down the street from the sheriff station. The sheriff got a federal grant to crack down on sideshows. The whole reason for the change in the law was to deal with the sideshows. So now they are out here in force pulling over pretty much anyone especially on friday and Saturday. My experience with them is not good. They can be real dicks. My car is way a over 95db. So im limited to where and when i can go wot. If i want to be smart and keep the car and my license that i just got back.

dguy

iTrader: (8)

Gotcha, hope it all goes well. I was mainly mentioning it because a lot of people got up in arms over the bill itself which didn't really change anything for the state. It may light a fire under specific stations such as in your case though. Also I find it nice to know as much or more about the laws that affect and will be enforced upon me by civil servants, seeing as I pay their salary and all.

Holdfast

I was using Eugene before trying to tune the map for these new Bosch injectors. It wasnt recording injector dwel in the logs. I was experiencing some other odd things using Eugene. So i went back to using WARI. Highest dwell i recorded so far at wot was 76%. Little higher than i expected with the 750cc injectors at 43psi. Map isnt completely done tuning tho. Today i went for a ride out to Frisco. With the ruff map i really sucked down some gas getting there. Looked at the map and made some adjustments before the ride home. What kind of target AFR are people using for a NA motor. Everything below 50% load is fine. Its the higher load and rpm target afr that i think i have too rich . 75% and 100% load i have set at 13.6 afr.

Holdfast

This is what i was going to try 4 target afr. Too lean for NA street port 13b?

dguy

iTrader: (8)

I'd say thats a little lean. I shoot for ~13 at WOT though that varies slightly depending on the engine. (12.8-13.2)

RGHTBrainDesign

HELL NO.

Try something closer to this.

Holdfast

This is the target afr ive been using.
I will try what u suggested.

Rub20B

I can second this. I tried this on a FD engine running NA and one could clearly feel the difference in torque/power when running all fuel only on the primaries instead of doing like at 30/70 pri/sec port fueling. I think the charge motion inst too great inside these engines and when all fuel going only through one of the side ports you would end up with one side of the chamber with a mixture of lambda 0.3 and the other side is almost pure air so not too good.

I made now for a guy a bridge port S4 NA engine (680 cc orange top lo impedance) with a select ecu and the problem is just like in this thread that staging only happens at lets say 7000 rpm and there even when secondaries just start spraying you feel a big gain in torque. Im going to try the trick with injector off time now.

1badFB

iTrader: (1)

I'm not on Adaptronic but this is an interesting topic, I never really considered the uneven air fuel mix.

In my case I've got 3 stages of injection:
-1000cc primaries in the block
-1000cc secondaries in the LIM (but on primary runners)
-2600cc tertiaries in the LIM (on secondary runners)

Looks like I should swap the staging around to even the fueling out...


Thanks dudes!

Holdfast

Problem with the select adaptronic primary duty cycle has to hit 98% before the secondarys kick in. Running any injector above 80% duty cycle is not recommended. I still use only primary injectors on my car. Primarys are 700cc secondarys are 450 or 550cc. They never get used.

Rub20B

I put some smaller primaries now inside. 280cc high imp ones I found lying around. Secondaries I put TII S5 550cc

now I reach around 60-65% duty on the secondaries at 8000 rpm. Primaries you can limit the duty slightly by upping this min inj off time as someone tipped earlier. I put like 1 msec there.

Holdfast

At what rpm do the secondary s kick in? How do the primary's run when they get close to 98% duty cycle? I never even came close with 459cc primarys to 98%. I though about doing what u did. But with a na motor I get plenty of fuel with two big injectors.

Rub20B

just after 4000 rpm when being WOT. In this log you can see it from about line 780