why we are NOT limited to 15 psi on pump
11-10-06, 10:10 AM
#26
Originally Posted by howard coleman
i am delighted that my post stirred some interest.
Ramy… stand-alone AI. Yes, that is the future for AI but the current systems work very very well. The better ones are plug n play and should not be considered makeshift.
Having said that, so what system are you using (since you're definitely very pleased with it)? I don't think I caught the name/manufacturer (or model) being mentioned in the thread?
Originally Posted by adam c
Very interesting and informative thread. Thanks to all who have posted.
I have what may be a stupid noob question: If methanol helps to safely allow higher boost levels, why not just add some into your gas tank?
I have what may be a stupid noob question: If methanol helps to safely allow higher boost levels, why not just add some into your gas tank?
Originally Posted by howard coleman
Methanol, the most advantageous of the 3 alcohols, is corrosive so aerooquip lines w brass fittings are necessary as is a replacement of certain items within the system pump.
11-10-06, 10:24 AM
#27
what I've always wondered with these meth injection threads... would it not be simpler to simply:
MIX METH WITH GAS, and upgrade the fuel system.
I'm sure that $500 will get you a meth-friendly fuel system... injectors are allready meth friendly I believe? All that you're really replacing is non aluminum and brass parts (rubber) with rubber that's compatiable OR non-rubber products.
This would eliminate ALL possibility of the meth system not working properly, added weight and complexity of a second tank, etc... all you have to do is mix the gas when you want the power, and if that's always it's STILL not that hard to do, lets face it, most of us with 500+HP cars drive them on the weekend and can figure out how to mix things 50/50 or whatever mix you'd end up using. If it's available for $2/gal, that's cheaper than premium fuel, I'll use as much of it as I can run! Why not just use it straight, run hotter plugs and no intercooler? Maybe nothing that extreme, but you can see how it would be possible.
MIX METH WITH GAS, and upgrade the fuel system.
I'm sure that $500 will get you a meth-friendly fuel system... injectors are allready meth friendly I believe? All that you're really replacing is non aluminum and brass parts (rubber) with rubber that's compatiable OR non-rubber products.
This would eliminate ALL possibility of the meth system not working properly, added weight and complexity of a second tank, etc... all you have to do is mix the gas when you want the power, and if that's always it's STILL not that hard to do, lets face it, most of us with 500+HP cars drive them on the weekend and can figure out how to mix things 50/50 or whatever mix you'd end up using. If it's available for $2/gal, that's cheaper than premium fuel, I'll use as much of it as I can run! Why not just use it straight, run hotter plugs and no intercooler? Maybe nothing that extreme, but you can see how it would be possible.
11-10-06, 11:35 AM
#28
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mixing meth w gasoline...
a reasonable question.
i don't know about you but i run 850/1600 injectors and before i switched to AI i was running at almost 90% injector duty cycle. i'll bet most of us are running 85% if we are making 400 rwhp+.
alcohol has less btu's per gallon or weight than gasoline. therefore you have to run more volume/weight of alcohol than the pump you displace so you quickly get upside down w regard to fuel deliverability.
yes, you could put a couple of additional injectors in the system. the injectors would need to be stainless steel. i believe Bosch makes such an injector. i do not know if other parts of the injector would work w methanol. i believe people have run injectors w alcohol and perhaps have changed them out periodically.
assuming you have the usual uprated injectors that are normally running flat out at the top of your run you can go from upside down to a win win. by removing pump from your injectors and replacing it w alcohol within another delivery system your overly taxed fuel system can drop back from 90% to 70%.
getting back to the alcohol in the gas tank... if you run your fuel system w one driver you might have a problem as you want alcohol to come on w a curved burst that does not necessarily line up w your pump map. in other words there is a time for alcohol to displace gas and it isn't linear.
another technical issue:
i gave lots of thought to locating my nozzles. initially i thought i would build a small log manifold/rail that would fit near the top of the LIM. use 4 smaller nozzles and get more of the cooling in the chamber and perhaps more even distribution. drawbacks would be smaller nozzles are more apt to get plugged & would require a solenoid as can be in vacuum.
i am glad i didn't do the 4 nozzle deal. i had a long talk w my vendor and he indicated that alcohol needs time to "flash." it does that primarily in the UIM. therefore you really want your alcohol to be injected upstream for effect, this doesn't work for pump.
there is another serious (IMO) situation to consider w regard to downstream alcohol nozzle placement. most AI pumps are impulse type so you get oscillating delivery. if you spray v close to the intake ports this un-eveness might cause uneven combustion cycles.
by spraying upstream (my 2 nozzles are located in the silicone coupler immediately infront of my elbow) you end up evening out the distribution. the reason being that the charge air and alcohol is propelled past the throttle body by both boost and vaccum and rockets into the combustion chamber while the port is open, this column of air and alcohol comes to a complete stop when the rotor closes the port, it bounces back (reversion) out w great force and mixes the alcohol and air just like a blender bass-omatic.
so you really want your alcohol to be injected upstream and pump downstream.
howard coleman
a reasonable question.
i don't know about you but i run 850/1600 injectors and before i switched to AI i was running at almost 90% injector duty cycle. i'll bet most of us are running 85% if we are making 400 rwhp+.
alcohol has less btu's per gallon or weight than gasoline. therefore you have to run more volume/weight of alcohol than the pump you displace so you quickly get upside down w regard to fuel deliverability.
yes, you could put a couple of additional injectors in the system. the injectors would need to be stainless steel. i believe Bosch makes such an injector. i do not know if other parts of the injector would work w methanol. i believe people have run injectors w alcohol and perhaps have changed them out periodically.
assuming you have the usual uprated injectors that are normally running flat out at the top of your run you can go from upside down to a win win. by removing pump from your injectors and replacing it w alcohol within another delivery system your overly taxed fuel system can drop back from 90% to 70%.
getting back to the alcohol in the gas tank... if you run your fuel system w one driver you might have a problem as you want alcohol to come on w a curved burst that does not necessarily line up w your pump map. in other words there is a time for alcohol to displace gas and it isn't linear.
another technical issue:
i gave lots of thought to locating my nozzles. initially i thought i would build a small log manifold/rail that would fit near the top of the LIM. use 4 smaller nozzles and get more of the cooling in the chamber and perhaps more even distribution. drawbacks would be smaller nozzles are more apt to get plugged & would require a solenoid as can be in vacuum.
i am glad i didn't do the 4 nozzle deal. i had a long talk w my vendor and he indicated that alcohol needs time to "flash." it does that primarily in the UIM. therefore you really want your alcohol to be injected upstream for effect, this doesn't work for pump.
there is another serious (IMO) situation to consider w regard to downstream alcohol nozzle placement. most AI pumps are impulse type so you get oscillating delivery. if you spray v close to the intake ports this un-eveness might cause uneven combustion cycles.
by spraying upstream (my 2 nozzles are located in the silicone coupler immediately infront of my elbow) you end up evening out the distribution. the reason being that the charge air and alcohol is propelled past the throttle body by both boost and vaccum and rockets into the combustion chamber while the port is open, this column of air and alcohol comes to a complete stop when the rotor closes the port, it bounces back (reversion) out w great force and mixes the alcohol and air just like a blender bass-omatic.
so you really want your alcohol to be injected upstream and pump downstream.
howard coleman
11-10-06, 12:11 PM
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Howard, I respect you immensely and the research you have done here.
I do feel obliged to point out the rather obvious fact that if the meth injection fails under boost, you will blow the motor. If you are running race gas, you do not have anything to worry about. That fact alone will keep many from RELYING on the AI to keep their motor from grenading.
I will (eventually) have my WI back up and running, but only as a safety net, not a way to run more boost.
Thanks for taking the time to post the info, this is really great stuff.
I do feel obliged to point out the rather obvious fact that if the meth injection fails under boost, you will blow the motor. If you are running race gas, you do not have anything to worry about. That fact alone will keep many from RELYING on the AI to keep their motor from grenading.
I will (eventually) have my WI back up and running, but only as a safety net, not a way to run more boost.
Thanks for taking the time to post the info, this is really great stuff.
11-10-06, 12:54 PM
#31
Rotary Freak
Originally Posted by howard coleman
words
- Lower injector duty cycles
- Lower EGTs
- Less heat in the engine bay (big one for myself and many others)
- MORE POWER
I don't plan on running 20 million psi, I just want a safe way to take my twins to capacity on the urine they label as gasoline here in California, and from your (very comprehensive) information, I think AI is the answer for most everyone who is tired of running off to the drag strip for race gas every time they want to make more than 400hp.
11-10-06, 12:57 PM
#32
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post 23
"Alcohol is a whole ‘nuther thing. Most “tune up” when using alcohol in that they remove pump and replace it w alcohol. I am close to 40% alcohol under boost. If the alcohol malfunctions it is good-by motor. Therefore system integrity is paramount."
in addition the the basic system there are safeguard subsystems for those who wish. i do not expect a blown motor if my delivery fails.
we all make our individual choices as to AI and there are no good or bad absolute choices other than being AI-less.
howard coleman
"Alcohol is a whole ‘nuther thing. Most “tune up” when using alcohol in that they remove pump and replace it w alcohol. I am close to 40% alcohol under boost. If the alcohol malfunctions it is good-by motor. Therefore system integrity is paramount."
in addition the the basic system there are safeguard subsystems for those who wish. i do not expect a blown motor if my delivery fails.
we all make our individual choices as to AI and there are no good or bad absolute choices other than being AI-less.
howard coleman
11-10-06, 01:04 PM
#34
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here's the ultimate deal breaker re alcohol in your gas tank.
alcohol doesn't mix w gas. gas is heavier and settles to the bottom. maybe you could put a blender in your tank
howard coleman
alcohol doesn't mix w gas. gas is heavier and settles to the bottom. maybe you could put a blender in your tank
howard coleman
11-10-06, 01:09 PM
#35
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This may sound stupid, but how will it affect gas mileage IF we were to install this on a FD daily driver? (Don't get me wrong, but the idea of paying for a little less PREMIUM gas in California sounds like a good idea.)
11-10-06, 02:48 PM
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Thanks Howard! Great stuff.
A couple of Questions:
-Which "Kit" would you recommend and why? Assuming money is not the determining factor.
-Or, would a DIY kit be the better route?
_
A couple of Questions:
-Which "Kit" would you recommend and why? Assuming money is not the determining factor.
-Or, would a DIY kit be the better route?
_
11-10-06, 02:52 PM
#39
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by snub disphenoid
I'm glad that you and others are so thoroughly exploring AI, I think it's going to help a lot of the power-hungry people out there.
Would there be any troubles with the motor holding together? I know that the TII engines like to crack irons left and right once you get past 20 or so PSI on a stock motor, but would an FD engine's integrity be compromised by running this much boost and making that much power? Or does the fact that alcohol lets the motor run a bit cooler compensate for that? I'd be interested in seeing how well the motors actually physically stay together because everyone's "common knowledge" has pointed to motors actually twisting and separating plates above ~17psi on an untouched engine.
I say this because I have a reman, and I'd like to turn the wick on my Knightsports twins up to 16-17 psi, but wouldn't want to do so if there's a good chance of something like cracking an iron. I realize that a failure-proof (or as close to failure-proof) ignition, fuel and AI system would be necessary, as well as a very competent tuner, but outside of that, do "plain physics" as some have stated actually come into play at 20psi on a stock motor?
Would there be any troubles with the motor holding together? I know that the TII engines like to crack irons left and right once you get past 20 or so PSI on a stock motor, but would an FD engine's integrity be compromised by running this much boost and making that much power? Or does the fact that alcohol lets the motor run a bit cooler compensate for that? I'd be interested in seeing how well the motors actually physically stay together because everyone's "common knowledge" has pointed to motors actually twisting and separating plates above ~17psi on an untouched engine.
I say this because I have a reman, and I'd like to turn the wick on my Knightsports twins up to 16-17 psi, but wouldn't want to do so if there's a good chance of something like cracking an iron. I realize that a failure-proof (or as close to failure-proof) ignition, fuel and AI system would be necessary, as well as a very competent tuner, but outside of that, do "plain physics" as some have stated actually come into play at 20psi on a stock motor?
It's because the issue isn't about "boost" -- this "common knowledge" that some people espouse I would argue are those that haven't actually done it. The issue is lateral deflection of the rotor housings against the irons, dragging the dowels with them and stressing the lands on the adjacent irons, while under conditions of severe knock. The pressures created in the combustion chamber during those events far exceed those of normal combustion pressures.
B
11-10-06, 02:55 PM
#40
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by rynberg
Howard, I respect you immensely and the research you have done here.
I do feel obliged to point out the rather obvious fact that if the meth injection fails under boost, you will blow the motor. If you are running race gas, you do not have anything to worry about. That fact alone will keep many from RELYING on the AI to keep their motor from grenading.
I will (eventually) have my WI back up and running, but only as a safety net, not a way to run more boost.
Thanks for taking the time to post the info, this is really great stuff.
I do feel obliged to point out the rather obvious fact that if the meth injection fails under boost, you will blow the motor. If you are running race gas, you do not have anything to worry about. That fact alone will keep many from RELYING on the AI to keep their motor from grenading.
I will (eventually) have my WI back up and running, but only as a safety net, not a way to run more boost.
Thanks for taking the time to post the info, this is really great stuff.
B
11-10-06, 10:59 PM
#41
on stock S5/S6 irons you can probably, realistically, for like, 20,000+ miles make 600HP with perfect tuning and low EGT's.
I need to get on a dyno to see what kind of power my FC is making, but I've trapped 133MPH in the 1/4 with a 3000LB (with driver) car... so I think lots... and with no issues.
At the track I've been using "rocket fuel" roughly a 50-50 mix of toluene and 91. But I think that meth may work better even that my race gas mix, which is roughly 107 octane and REFUSES to detonate. (it seems to misfire instead if it's too lean), lower egt's = win...
Meth will not affect fuel milage in any way shape or form execept on high boost - where you'll use ~40% less fuel if you're injecting lots of meth and leaning out the fuel map 40%.
"miles per tank" of meth would depend totally on how much you boost. On a 4 gallon tank I'd guess you'd probably get 2 tanks of fuel to one tank of meth if you drive like me, and it's 40% of your WOT fuel delivery.
Yes, if the meth system fails I'd think you'd see an engine failure. Same thing if your fuel sustem fails... I think that the pump setup could be made to be pretty damn reliable...
oops, BDC just said exactly that in the post above... lol.
Howard, how much are we looking for for a complete system? You mentioned $500 earlier, is that realistic for a SOLID system with a low level warning of some kind, 1 failsafe, pressure activation (at say 10PSI) and a tank of some kind?
What about injecting far upstream? Just after the turbo or just before the intercooler perhaps? Not sure if that would help intake temps but it might?
I need to get on a dyno to see what kind of power my FC is making, but I've trapped 133MPH in the 1/4 with a 3000LB (with driver) car... so I think lots... and with no issues.
At the track I've been using "rocket fuel" roughly a 50-50 mix of toluene and 91. But I think that meth may work better even that my race gas mix, which is roughly 107 octane and REFUSES to detonate. (it seems to misfire instead if it's too lean), lower egt's = win...
Meth will not affect fuel milage in any way shape or form execept on high boost - where you'll use ~40% less fuel if you're injecting lots of meth and leaning out the fuel map 40%.
"miles per tank" of meth would depend totally on how much you boost. On a 4 gallon tank I'd guess you'd probably get 2 tanks of fuel to one tank of meth if you drive like me, and it's 40% of your WOT fuel delivery.
Yes, if the meth system fails I'd think you'd see an engine failure. Same thing if your fuel sustem fails... I think that the pump setup could be made to be pretty damn reliable...
oops, BDC just said exactly that in the post above... lol.
Howard, how much are we looking for for a complete system? You mentioned $500 earlier, is that realistic for a SOLID system with a low level warning of some kind, 1 failsafe, pressure activation (at say 10PSI) and a tank of some kind?
What about injecting far upstream? Just after the turbo or just before the intercooler perhaps? Not sure if that would help intake temps but it might?
11-11-06, 09:51 AM
#43
For the guy that asked about mixing 103 and pump(93 or 91) You can VERY easily do this. Once in a while when i go to the local track if i have LESS than a quarter tank...you can mix the 103 in...thus giving you about a 99-98 octane rating. When i do this...i have run all the way up to 17psi without any detenation. Howard- Thanks for all the info...I have been throwing around the idea of doing this. What kit did you use?
11-11-06, 12:45 PM
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Howard, if you "tune" for alcohol or meth, why wouldn't you "tune" for water? It seems to me that when you tune for AFR's in the 10's on pump gas, you have already lost power. By just adding water, you are deluging your motor with gas and water.
If you added WI, wouldn't it be advantageous to lean out your fuel delivery and AFR's?
The perception I have from reading threads is that people add and tune for alcohol but do not tune for water. If you tuned for WI, wouldn't you see a similiar lowering of injector duty cycles and lowering of EGT's? As a plus, wouldn't a WI system be less complex, more reliable and easier to maintain?
Another question. If you are replacing 40% of your fuel with meth at WOT. How long is your 4 gal meth fuel cell going to last during a track session?
If you added WI, wouldn't it be advantageous to lean out your fuel delivery and AFR's?
The perception I have from reading threads is that people add and tune for alcohol but do not tune for water. If you tuned for WI, wouldn't you see a similiar lowering of injector duty cycles and lowering of EGT's? As a plus, wouldn't a WI system be less complex, more reliable and easier to maintain?
Another question. If you are replacing 40% of your fuel with meth at WOT. How long is your 4 gal meth fuel cell going to last during a track session?
11-11-06, 03:59 PM
#45
it seems to me that water has some advantages and disadvantages:
advantage: water has "infinite" octane.
Disadvantage: water has "infinite" octane.
I would think that you can probably make more power on meth and gas vs water and gas - because the meth burns, water just takes up space.
advantage: water has "infinite" octane.
Disadvantage: water has "infinite" octane.
I would think that you can probably make more power on meth and gas vs water and gas - because the meth burns, water just takes up space.
11-11-06, 04:14 PM
#46
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a few questions have been offered so i thought i would respond. i would also like to invite all interested parties over to the new Auxiliary Injection site under Rotary Performance. we now have 36 threads and lots of questions answered. i posted pictures of my setup as to component location etc.
Terrh raises the tuning up w water. absolutely you can change the tune on your motor as you inject water. you would in general lean it out and advance the timing along w raising the boost. i have stated repeatedly that AI includes water and alcohol and they both work well. do understand that as you make the decision to remove base fuel, raise boost and advance timing the ballgame changes... meaning if you don't change tuning and the water injection fails no biggie. if you do make changes to create more ponies and the system fails you could lose a motor. so if you "tune up" i strongly suggest you use nothing but the best as to system integrity. if you don't tune up you can run the plastic hose and DIY pump conversion etc.... and there is nothing wrong w either choice.
gas mileage has been touched upon... my alcohol is set to come on at 5.5 psi. you could set it to trigger higher or lower. what i have found, making well over 500 hp is that i don't boost quite as much as the car is scary warpspeed fast... like sideways anytime you want. so i am not running around at full boost all the time or there would be dead bodies and crumpled sheet metal everywhere.. i run what i think is an optimal fuel cell size, 4 gallons. i inject 1200 cc/minute of alcohol wide open. my 850/1600 injectors make 4900 cc/min wide open. i have cut them back at least 35%. by the way don't buy the bit about there's less btu's in alcohol v gasoline so you need to use alot more. because you can run more boost and more advance alcohol may in the real world deliver more USABLE energy than gasoline. alcohol, for instance has a 160 degree higher autoignition point so you are less likely to knock which opens different tuning metrics. for info re my fuel cell and how it is mounted see my two threads on system optimization in the AI section.
TdazmansFD... nice post. yes you can get a bulletproof system w progressive controller all aeroquip w brass hydraulic fittings cut custom length low level light etc for $500. i don't recommend skimping or DIY if you are going to run alcohol.
my system is Alkycontrol. plug n play.
howard coleman
Terrh raises the tuning up w water. absolutely you can change the tune on your motor as you inject water. you would in general lean it out and advance the timing along w raising the boost. i have stated repeatedly that AI includes water and alcohol and they both work well. do understand that as you make the decision to remove base fuel, raise boost and advance timing the ballgame changes... meaning if you don't change tuning and the water injection fails no biggie. if you do make changes to create more ponies and the system fails you could lose a motor. so if you "tune up" i strongly suggest you use nothing but the best as to system integrity. if you don't tune up you can run the plastic hose and DIY pump conversion etc.... and there is nothing wrong w either choice.
gas mileage has been touched upon... my alcohol is set to come on at 5.5 psi. you could set it to trigger higher or lower. what i have found, making well over 500 hp is that i don't boost quite as much as the car is scary warpspeed fast... like sideways anytime you want. so i am not running around at full boost all the time or there would be dead bodies and crumpled sheet metal everywhere.. i run what i think is an optimal fuel cell size, 4 gallons. i inject 1200 cc/minute of alcohol wide open. my 850/1600 injectors make 4900 cc/min wide open. i have cut them back at least 35%. by the way don't buy the bit about there's less btu's in alcohol v gasoline so you need to use alot more. because you can run more boost and more advance alcohol may in the real world deliver more USABLE energy than gasoline. alcohol, for instance has a 160 degree higher autoignition point so you are less likely to knock which opens different tuning metrics. for info re my fuel cell and how it is mounted see my two threads on system optimization in the AI section.
TdazmansFD... nice post. yes you can get a bulletproof system w progressive controller all aeroquip w brass hydraulic fittings cut custom length low level light etc for $500. i don't recommend skimping or DIY if you are going to run alcohol.
my system is Alkycontrol. plug n play.
howard coleman
11-11-06, 05:58 PM
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So assuming I want to tune with my W.I. setup, what system provides the the best know integrity and reliability. There probably isn't a whole lot of info on that, but if anyone has suggestions of a reliable setup, i'd like to know.
11-11-06, 06:21 PM
#49
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there are a number of excellent water-oriented vendors.... i suggest coolingmist, snowperformance, devilsown and enginerunerup as worth a look.
howard coleman
howard coleman
11-11-06, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by howard coleman
what i have found, making well over 500 hp is that i don't boost quite as much as the car is scary warpspeed fast... like sideways anytime you want.