Why shouldn’t everyone use Evan’s NPG+ coolant?
09-28-04, 01:45 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by pomanferrari
The restriction is to ensure that there is enough dwell time for the coolant to pick up heat and release it.
The reason that cars overheat w/o a thermostat is because there is a hole in the back of the thermostat housing. When the thermostat is not opened, 90% of the coolant flows back (i.e., bypasses) into the engine block via this hole to ensure faster warm up. Once the thermostat opens up, it moves into and block the bypass hole.
W/o the thermostat, coolant wil just bypass back into the engine rather than flow to the radiator.
The reason that cars overheat w/o a thermostat is because there is a hole in the back of the thermostat housing. When the thermostat is not opened, 90% of the coolant flows back (i.e., bypasses) into the engine block via this hole to ensure faster warm up. Once the thermostat opens up, it moves into and block the bypass hole.
W/o the thermostat, coolant wil just bypass back into the engine rather than flow to the radiator.
UNTIL IT GOES TOO FAST!
When the water goes too fast, the water pump blades cavitate the water. That injects vapor bubbles into the water and they cause serious trouble. Water vapor can absorb only a tiny amount of heat compared to liquid water. Eventually even the water trying to run around corners in the engine will cause cavitation.
You need to keep the thermostat or some kind of restriction to prevent water pump cavitation.
Here's a question, does Evans coolant have better resistance to cavitation? (if you keep the thermostst, it really doesn't matter)
ed
09-28-04, 02:09 PM
#53
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I don't see why people fixate on the cost of Evans(Three gallons for $60-75). That's 2 gallons to fill the system and an extra gallon to have around "just in case". I mean we drive an FD, everything costs alot of money for this car. And for $60-70 bucks, for some added insurace against overheating and losing a coolant seal, I think it's worth it...
I've lost two motors to coolantseal failure
I've lost two motors to coolantseal failure
09-28-04, 03:38 PM
#54
Originally Posted by jpandes
I've lost two motors to coolantseal failure
I'm really not a fan of running hotter than normal..
Once again, I'm not an expert but I would think loosing coolant seal is not really due to coolant.. Maybe the whole 0 pressure thing might be good if say your stock AST cracks and boils. which most likely what happened with me..
One thing I learned and hope others learn, is to make sure you do regular diagnosic check on your car.. Get a 50-100 coolant pressure checker and check it everytime you flush your system.. Instead of spending 75 for coolant that makes your car run hotter.. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for my comment..
09-28-04, 05:01 PM
#55
The 5-10 degree increase in temps that some people report from Evans vs. conventional coolant (my temps actually went down a couple) is not that big of an increase. Think of it this way, I would prefer my entire engine to be 10 degrees hotter than to have the possibility of a hot spot boiling and getting possibly 100 degrees hotter than the rest of the engine. It isnt a slight temp increase over the whole engine that will cause problems, the problems with warping and coolant seals blowing come when you have extreme temp differentials such as a localized boiling hot spot.
Every time I had a regular pressure cap there it leaked. As long as you dont have any leaks there actually the pressure cap is ok. I would still find a proper replacement, of course the only place I have found them is at the dealer for $20.
Originally Posted by Bad_Karma7
Oh! I have a 13lb. cap there, should I just get one with just a rubber seal, or should I just remove the rubber seal from the current one?
Every time I had a regular pressure cap there it leaked. As long as you dont have any leaks there actually the pressure cap is ok. I would still find a proper replacement, of course the only place I have found them is at the dealer for $20.
09-28-04, 06:05 PM
#56
Pomanferarri, the thermostat's restriction causes an increase in pressure upstream (inside the engine), which reduces or eliminates hotspots & localized boiling. My physics professor explained it as a simple case of P1V1 = P2V2 , the decreased volume that the coolant is forced to flow through will result in an increased pressure. And if you think of it dynamically, the pressure increase will occur upstream of the restriction.
If the problem was related to a dwell-time of some sort, the problems you'd see would involve cold coolant but a mysteriously overheated engine. The coolant wouldn't boil if it wasn't picking up enough heat. But since people who have run without the thermostat have had boilover-related overheating problems, you can rule out the time factor. The very word 'overheat' suggest that too much heat is being introduced and not enough heat being removed from the system, which is both caused and amplified by the low boiling point.
I can also see how cavitation could come into play, the thermostat probably performs several functions, it's amazing how many variables come into play with regards to something as (relatively) simple as the cooling system.
-s-
If the problem was related to a dwell-time of some sort, the problems you'd see would involve cold coolant but a mysteriously overheated engine. The coolant wouldn't boil if it wasn't picking up enough heat. But since people who have run without the thermostat have had boilover-related overheating problems, you can rule out the time factor. The very word 'overheat' suggest that too much heat is being introduced and not enough heat being removed from the system, which is both caused and amplified by the low boiling point.
I can also see how cavitation could come into play, the thermostat probably performs several functions, it's amazing how many variables come into play with regards to something as (relatively) simple as the cooling system.
-s-
09-29-04, 10:20 AM
#57
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Someone should do a test to see if the whole engine is hotter, or just the coolant. Put a temp prob on the engine block and get the car up to temp, measure the block temp. Then do the same with Evan coolant in the system. You may actually find the block is cooler because the coolant is drawing the hear out faster with Evans. Just a thought.
09-29-04, 11:34 AM
#58
Originally Posted by radkins
Someone should do a test to see if the whole engine is hotter, or just the coolant. Put a temp prob on the engine block and get the car up to temp, measure the block temp. Then do the same with Evan coolant in the system. You may actually find the block is cooler because the coolant is drawing the hear out faster with Evans. Just a thought.
09-29-04, 11:36 AM
#59
Stuff I found before.. from panera site.. its not for rotaries.. but ideas about the same..
Sounds fantastic, but is it. If you wanted to experiment with 100%
inhibited propylene glycol you could try the "Seirra" environmentally safe
stuff available everywhere. But is it better, or is it marketing.
Lets use some data to cloud the issue.(ASHRAE Fundamentals,Sec 18.7-9)
@ 200 F /Water /Ehtylene Glycol / Propylene Glycol
heat cap
btu/lb-F 1.0 / 0.63 / 0.69
(more is better)
Viscosity
cp 0.3 / 2.5 / 3.0
(less is better)
Boiling point
Point F 212 / 388 / 369
(more is better)
Max contact
temp F n/a / 300 / 300
Thermal
Conductivity 0.38 / 0.13 / 0.10
1. So, With the reduced heat capacity, you would have to pump 30-35% more
glycol (more mass) to transfer the same energy as water, or raise the
temperature of the glycol (heat=mass x heat cap x temp rise).
2. And as the viscosity of the fluid increases the pumping frictional
losses increase, thus moving less fluid for the same speed. This increases
the temperature (see 1).
3. A little temp increase that should be ok, right? The boiling point is
much higher for the glycols. But what about caburization temp? At 300 F
the glycols start to thermally decompose (scorch). Is this a problem?
4. And finally, the thermal conductivity (a measure of how fast the fluid
adsorbes or gives up heat) is a third of that of water. This again tends to
raise the temp.
I'm guessing if you ran pure antifreeze or the sierra product or the Evans
NPG in your Pantera it would run VERY warm. You would have to get a new
guage to read that warm, 260-300. It wouldn't boil over, but would it cook
the glycol to cylinders walls in the water jacket.
Corrosion inhibited water is probably better for a stock pantera cooling
system.
inhibited propylene glycol you could try the "Seirra" environmentally safe
stuff available everywhere. But is it better, or is it marketing.
Lets use some data to cloud the issue.(ASHRAE Fundamentals,Sec 18.7-9)
@ 200 F /Water /Ehtylene Glycol / Propylene Glycol
heat cap
btu/lb-F 1.0 / 0.63 / 0.69
(more is better)
Viscosity
cp 0.3 / 2.5 / 3.0
(less is better)
Boiling point
Point F 212 / 388 / 369
(more is better)
Max contact
temp F n/a / 300 / 300
Thermal
Conductivity 0.38 / 0.13 / 0.10
1. So, With the reduced heat capacity, you would have to pump 30-35% more
glycol (more mass) to transfer the same energy as water, or raise the
temperature of the glycol (heat=mass x heat cap x temp rise).
2. And as the viscosity of the fluid increases the pumping frictional
losses increase, thus moving less fluid for the same speed. This increases
the temperature (see 1).
3. A little temp increase that should be ok, right? The boiling point is
much higher for the glycols. But what about caburization temp? At 300 F
the glycols start to thermally decompose (scorch). Is this a problem?
4. And finally, the thermal conductivity (a measure of how fast the fluid
adsorbes or gives up heat) is a third of that of water. This again tends to
raise the temp.
I'm guessing if you ran pure antifreeze or the sierra product or the Evans
NPG in your Pantera it would run VERY warm. You would have to get a new
guage to read that warm, 260-300. It wouldn't boil over, but would it cook
the glycol to cylinders walls in the water jacket.
Corrosion inhibited water is probably better for a stock pantera cooling
system.
Last edited by Herblenny; 09-29-04 at 11:38 AM.
09-29-04, 11:48 AM
#60
Also here is this stuff called ICE!! nothing more than NPG with de-i water..
another thread about NPG...
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ighlight=evans
Engine Ice is a diluted ratio of PG and Deionized water. The process of de-ionizing water eliminates all of the impurities that can do harm to your cooling system. Regardless if you are using tap, bottled, distilled, spring or R/O (reverse osmosis) waters, it can still contain minute particles of iron, magnesium, rust, lime and calcium. Many of these waters also contain chemicals, such as chlorine, fluorides and acids. Want proof? Take two different brands of distilled waters and perform your own taste test. They each taste different don’t they? If water were water, why would they be different? It’s because of the varying amounts of chemicals and minerals in these waters. These minerals and chemicals are what is the cause of scarring, scaling and mineral build-ups in your cooling system. Many also attribute these minerals and chemicals to water pump seal and gasket failures.
Engine Ice was developed and tested in the heat and humidity of Southern Florida. Tests have proven to reduce operating race temperatures by as much as 50oF in some situations. PG is a lubricant and is a surfactant in itself, meaning it has more capability to draw away more heat than EG-based products and even Water Wetter. It is biodegradable and non-toxic. It will not kill your dog, nor will it kill the plant life at your favorite track or trail. It is also legal in AMA, CCS and FUSA road racing.
Engine Ice has won over 275 National Championship Titles over the last two and a half years including the 2001 AMA 125cc West Supercross Championship with Ernesto Fonseca on the Yamaha of Troy YZ250F and in 2002 Chad Reed in the 125cc West Supercross Championship. You can bet that Yamaha Motor Corporation did extensive testing on Engine Ice prior to putting in into their premier bike in its debut year. It is also used an endorsed by the American Suzuki Amateur Motocross Program. Engine Ice sponsored racer, Darren Luck, won nine (9) CCS class championships in 2002 as well as earned the CCS Florida Expert #1 plate by the largest margin ever. Racers using Engine Ice won seven CCS Race of Champions National Championships at Daytona in 2001 and won an additional eight (8) in 2002.
As for flushing the system, we recommend a very simple and cheap radiator flush.
Go to your local grocery store and buy "White Distilled Vinegar" and mix that 50/50 with some distilled water.
Fill the system with the 50/50 mix, run the bike until warm, let cool, drain and then run clear water through to wash out the vinegar. It's the same idea as cleaning your coffee maker. The vinegar is acidic enough to remove any scale or impurities, but not so harsh that it will harm your delicate seals and gaskets.
Engine Ice was developed and tested in the heat and humidity of Southern Florida. Tests have proven to reduce operating race temperatures by as much as 50oF in some situations. PG is a lubricant and is a surfactant in itself, meaning it has more capability to draw away more heat than EG-based products and even Water Wetter. It is biodegradable and non-toxic. It will not kill your dog, nor will it kill the plant life at your favorite track or trail. It is also legal in AMA, CCS and FUSA road racing.
Engine Ice has won over 275 National Championship Titles over the last two and a half years including the 2001 AMA 125cc West Supercross Championship with Ernesto Fonseca on the Yamaha of Troy YZ250F and in 2002 Chad Reed in the 125cc West Supercross Championship. You can bet that Yamaha Motor Corporation did extensive testing on Engine Ice prior to putting in into their premier bike in its debut year. It is also used an endorsed by the American Suzuki Amateur Motocross Program. Engine Ice sponsored racer, Darren Luck, won nine (9) CCS class championships in 2002 as well as earned the CCS Florida Expert #1 plate by the largest margin ever. Racers using Engine Ice won seven CCS Race of Champions National Championships at Daytona in 2001 and won an additional eight (8) in 2002.
As for flushing the system, we recommend a very simple and cheap radiator flush.
Go to your local grocery store and buy "White Distilled Vinegar" and mix that 50/50 with some distilled water.
Fill the system with the 50/50 mix, run the bike until warm, let cool, drain and then run clear water through to wash out the vinegar. It's the same idea as cleaning your coffee maker. The vinegar is acidic enough to remove any scale or impurities, but not so harsh that it will harm your delicate seals and gaskets.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ighlight=evans
05-27-05, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom93R1
The 5-10 degree increase in temps that some people report from Evans vs. conventional coolant (my temps actually went down a couple) is not that big of an increase. Think of it this way, I would prefer my entire engine to be 10 degrees hotter than to have the possibility of a hot spot boiling and getting possibly 100 degrees hotter than the rest of the engine. It isnt a slight temp increase over the whole engine that will cause problems, the problems with warping and coolant seals blowing come when you have extreme temp differentials such as a localized boiling hot spot.
05-27-05, 09:05 AM
#62
Old threads coming back to life!! Good to see that people are searching the forum..
Recently I've heard that if you run your engine coolant temp of 89C, your chance of loosing coolant seal is very unlike. This information came from one of the top rotary engine builder...
Recently I've heard that if you run your engine coolant temp of 89C, your chance of loosing coolant seal is very unlike. This information came from one of the top rotary engine builder...
10-16-05, 02:15 PM
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Cavitation info...
So, here's some information on cavitation... From what I understand, these are the facts - eg/w + pressure gives good boilover protection... Now, the liquid, without the pressure, may be hot enough to boil, even coming out of the radiator. The pressure keeps it from boiling, though. Now, right as the liquid enters the pump, there is an area of low, to no, to negative pressure, due to the suction from the pump. This allows the "hot enough to boil without pressure" liquid to boil for an instant, introducing vapor to the mixture right as it enters the water pump. This mixture then gets re-pressurized by the pump, causing the vapor pockets to go away again, they are only there long enough to mess with your pump. This is from what I've read, and from experiments I've tried. I myself do not have an RX7, just want one, I have an old Merc with a 460, it used to overheat (boilover) all the time, now I'm using NPG+, High volume pump, BIGASS Howe radiator, and Flex-a-lite fans (part 295), and all problems are fixed. Now, I am not saying that the NPG+ fixed all the problem, it is just my little bit of insurance, along with the rest of the stuff, so I have no apprehension turning on the A/C in 100 deg weather, idling, traffic jam style. I may have been able to get great results with just water, EG/W, whatever. My opinion, though? I think it's the shiite. I would recommend it to anyone.
Peace
Peace
10-16-05, 02:19 PM
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Oh, yeah...
By the way, I measured metal temps around the block before and after switching to evans with a laser therm. The metal temps went down by 5-10% with NPG+. I leaned out my carb a little after, too, cause the 460 eats gas like candy, every little bit helps, and I feel completely safe doing so. I haven't had any problems at all from it.
10-16-05, 07:46 PM
#66
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My car ran hotter with evans during track use than with water, sm amount of coolant, sm amount of water wetter so I went home and drained it.
Heat is the enemy PERIOD
The hot spotting thing is bull. Basically the plate gets to hot overall and warps. Like when your rotors start bluing (turning blue from heat) the plates will do the same thing and warp.
Heat is the enemy PERIOD
The hot spotting thing is bull. Basically the plate gets to hot overall and warps. Like when your rotors start bluing (turning blue from heat) the plates will do the same thing and warp.
10-16-05, 09:32 PM
#67
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??
"The hot spotting thing is bull. Basically the plate gets to hot overall and warps. Like when your rotors start bluing (turning blue from heat) the plates will do the same thing and warp"
Is this your opinion, or factual data via engineering analysis??
Is this your opinion, or factual data via engineering analysis??
10-16-05, 10:01 PM
#68
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Pomanferarri, i ran deionized water in my FC for 2 years without a thermostat, and then put the thermostat back on.
i can tell you that my fc ran CONSIDERABLY cooler without a thermostat. no comparison. although i forgot the actual temperature difference, it's been a while....
i've been hearing for a while from many sources about how if you removing your thermostat will actually make your engine overheat. perhaps for some cars, but definitely not my FC (which pretty much shares the same cooling system as the FD).
howi
i can tell you that my fc ran CONSIDERABLY cooler without a thermostat. no comparison. although i forgot the actual temperature difference, it's been a while....
i've been hearing for a while from many sources about how if you removing your thermostat will actually make your engine overheat. perhaps for some cars, but definitely not my FC (which pretty much shares the same cooling system as the FD).
howi
10-17-05, 04:25 AM
#70
Originally Posted by potatochobit
evans is not practical for street use.
if u ever needed to fill the radiator you would not be able to due only being able to add evans.
if u ever needed to fill the radiator you would not be able to due only being able to add evans.
I agree. I got 99k on my original engine and the coolant seals are holding up fine. The water you use in the 50/50 mix makes the most difference in how corrosive the coolant system will be over time. I use bottled water in my car. Plus regular flushes keep the system healthy. For those of you that have over heated and blown coolant seals, you need to look at your maintenance history because technically, your engine should never over heat.
10-17-05, 05:10 AM
#71
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Originally Posted by Jack
"The hot spotting thing is bull. Basically the plate gets to hot overall and warps. Like when your rotors start bluing (turning blue from heat) the plates will do the same thing and warp"
Is this your opinion, or factual data via engineering analysis??
Is this your opinion, or factual data via engineering analysis??
Another thing I found quite interesting was the gas mileage I was getting after I installed my HKS twinpower but what I'm most astounded by is the amount of money I saved by switching to GICO.............
Seriously though I really did give it try and I understand the whole hotspotting thing but the housings would warp with this stuff as well. Maybe at temps that are bit higher but IMO this **** makes your car run hotter and I do what I can to avoid that.
10-17-05, 08:19 AM
#72
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Originally Posted by Fritz Flynn
None at all and last night I decided to try it again and drove all night tearing up the back roads and my temps were fantastic. You guys are right this stuff is the bomb. Everyone should be using it. I'm going to get on the horn right now with Nigel, Mario, Gary, AJ, Dale, Richard, and Fangio to let them now about my new discovery and running this water crap is for the birds.
Another thing I found quite interesting was the gas mileage I was getting after I installed my HKS twinpower but what I'm most astounded by is the amount of money I saved by switching to GICO.............
Seriously though I really did give it try and I understand the whole hotspotting thing but the housings would warp with this stuff as well. Maybe at temps that are bit higher but IMO this **** makes your car run hotter and I do what I can to avoid that.
Another thing I found quite interesting was the gas mileage I was getting after I installed my HKS twinpower but what I'm most astounded by is the amount of money I saved by switching to GICO.............
Seriously though I really did give it try and I understand the whole hotspotting thing but the housings would warp with this stuff as well. Maybe at temps that are bit higher but IMO this **** makes your car run hotter and I do what I can to avoid that.
Try that with water in an RX7.... Water is the best medium for cooling a properly designed cooling system, the 7 with all the larger coolers, ducting and every race trick to keep the motor cool is marginal at best... 15 years, 100+ track days and seven Rx7's leads me to that conclusion...
10-17-05, 08:45 AM
#73
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200 plus track days
40 plus 3rd gens
My track car runs at 190F water and oil temps w/ 75% water 25% coolant and a 95F summer day. Lap times at VIR 2:08 to 2:11 all day at 11lbs of boost on bad tires.
What are your oil temps? BTW I use regular oil and it stays nice and clean for 2k track miles. I figure I'd better change it but who knows it might not look bad after 3 or 4k miles.
I bought my car from a very wise man hehe
If you like evans and it works for you then god bless but at this point I'm happy with my current setup.
Hopefully soon we can hook up at Watkins Glen I'd love to drive that track.
40 plus 3rd gens
My track car runs at 190F water and oil temps w/ 75% water 25% coolant and a 95F summer day. Lap times at VIR 2:08 to 2:11 all day at 11lbs of boost on bad tires.
What are your oil temps? BTW I use regular oil and it stays nice and clean for 2k track miles. I figure I'd better change it but who knows it might not look bad after 3 or 4k miles.
I bought my car from a very wise man hehe
If you like evans and it works for you then god bless but at this point I'm happy with my current setup.
Hopefully soon we can hook up at Watkins Glen I'd love to drive that track.
Originally Posted by Jack
7/03/02, Watkins Glen, 95F ambient, 264F Evans temps all day, bet lap times 2:15
Try that with water in an RX7.... Water is the best medium for cooling a properly designed cooling system, the 7 with all the larger coolers, ducting and every race trick to keep the motor cool is marginal at best... 15 years, 100+ track days and seven Rx7's leads me to that conclusion...
Try that with water in an RX7.... Water is the best medium for cooling a properly designed cooling system, the 7 with all the larger coolers, ducting and every race trick to keep the motor cool is marginal at best... 15 years, 100+ track days and seven Rx7's leads me to that conclusion...
10-17-05, 09:05 AM
#74
Before I begin, I want to say, I'm with Fritz.
Let's look at Fritz's history. The man probably seen every performance parts made for this car. I don't know anyone on this forum who has sold more stock or performance parts than Fritz. Just by his experience in seeing/trying these parts and his experience on the track, I believe his words more than anyone else's.
Also, I was told by other top rotary guys in USA telling me the same thing. But we all want to try something new. I could probably bottle my ****, put a nice label, tell people that it cools the engine, and I could probably sell it for $40 a gallon. Haven't you all seen people peeing on the radiator when it over heats?? Come on..
Let's look at Fritz's history. The man probably seen every performance parts made for this car. I don't know anyone on this forum who has sold more stock or performance parts than Fritz. Just by his experience in seeing/trying these parts and his experience on the track, I believe his words more than anyone else's.
Also, I was told by other top rotary guys in USA telling me the same thing. But we all want to try something new. I could probably bottle my ****, put a nice label, tell people that it cools the engine, and I could probably sell it for $40 a gallon. Haven't you all seen people peeing on the radiator when it over heats?? Come on..
10-17-05, 09:14 AM
#75
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You are saying you maintain 190f on a 95f ambient day on a race track????? well inless you have a purpose built race car (GT3) or have made a pack with the devil you are the ONLY Rx7 track guy I know who has accomplished that feat....Will you share your engineering secrets with the rest of us???
Originally Posted by Fritz Flynn
200 plus track days 40 plus 3rd gens
My track car runs at 190F water and oil temps w/ 75% water 25% coolant and a 95F summer day. Lap times at VIR 2:08 to 2:11 all day at 11lbs of boost on bad tires.
What are your oil temps? BTW I use regular oil and it stays nice and clean for 2k track miles. I figure I'd better change it but who knows it might not look bad after 3 or 4k miles.
I bought my car from a very wise man hehe
If you like evans and it works for you then god bless but at this point I'm happy with my current setup.
Hopefully soon we can hook up at Watkins Glen I'd love to drive that track.
My track car runs at 190F water and oil temps w/ 75% water 25% coolant and a 95F summer day. Lap times at VIR 2:08 to 2:11 all day at 11lbs of boost on bad tires.
What are your oil temps? BTW I use regular oil and it stays nice and clean for 2k track miles. I figure I'd better change it but who knows it might not look bad after 3 or 4k miles.
I bought my car from a very wise man hehe
If you like evans and it works for you then god bless but at this point I'm happy with my current setup.
Hopefully soon we can hook up at Watkins Glen I'd love to drive that track.
Last edited by Jack; 10-17-05 at 09:17 AM.