Someone locally is doing testing on these intercoolers, he has one on his 10th A.E. so far he loves it.

 

I'm wondering if there would be an advantage to running a larger sub-radiator. Something like the dimensions of an AC condenser. It wouldn't have to be thick at all because of the large surface area, and it would be a good mounting option for right in front of the radiator. It wouldn't impede airflow nearly as much as a 3"+ FMIC, and a SMIC wouldn't be sitting behind the radiator blocking airflow from behind either. It would also benefit from the radiator fans, and the increased volume of "coolant" in it's system would prevent heat soaking the system. Proper ducting and a setup could be very efficient.

The more I think about it, why not use the AC condenser?? I don't have air conditioning, so removing it wouldn't be an issue. The condenser would be cheap (or free), mounting location would already be there, so no fabrication would be needed on that end. I've never seen an FD AC condenser, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

 

My whole objection to meth being injected pre ic or somewhere along those lines:

"Wouldn't pre-BOV be BAD!?" And even then, the air will still back flow out. So 100% meth injection imho doesn't feel very safe.


Back on topic. I would REALLY like to see how this performs with its own radiator. If it cooles similar to a standard IC, I might just go this route. If for any reason other than having a killer short intake tract.

 

I see a few clear benefits:
1) Less system resistance. Intercoolers must be placed in the best location for cooling - these tubes can be placed along the best path from the compressor to the throttle body.
2) Air-to-water. Better thermal sink. Just like those high-end computer CPU coolers that run water instead of the air/air heatsinks that the rest of us use.
3) The water in this system stays separate from the engine coolant, with the intent of keeping intercooler temps lower.

 

Monk - Thanks for the clarification on pumps.


EXACTLY. I'm going to email Dave and see if he can send me the contact info of the person who owns the pictured RX7. We need some testimonials.

I just wanted to comment on using the stock radiator vs a separate system. Did you all look at the configuration options? I'm not 100% sure that there is anything wrong with using stock coolant. Here is a diagram showing how you can piggy back on the stock system and also add a small radiator to cool your coolant even more before it reaches the Pipe.



This picture also shows the huge space savings vs a normal SMIC or VMIC.

 

I'm doing some research on piecing a kit together. I'd want to use quality parts. Here is what someone used for a custom A2W kit in their MR2.

Part.----------------------------------------------------- Ebay Key Word
OEM Ford Cobra Water pump - $110 Shipped : "Ford Intercooler pump"
Honda Civic Aluminum Radiator - $85 shipped : "Civic Aluminum Radiator"
SPAL 10" Fan - -------------------- - $50 shipped: Group buy on Mr2 forum
Couplings, t-bolts, fittings, tubing, L-brackets, etc - $120

That is $365 + cost of the pipe. An additional cost may exist if you want to custom fab a dual pipe system like Lindsey had pictured.

Here is a pic of the Civic radiator with the SPAL fan on it, next to the cobra pump.

 

Coolant may work just fine. But in absolute terms, coolant temperature is regulated to stay at a minimum temp, so for the best charge cooling you want to use the coldest fluid possible.

In that illustration they show a secondary cooler that keeps the intercooler loop at a lower temp than the engine. I can certainly understand how it may be better in practice than a separate system. I'm sure Lindsey would have tried all the options before settling on this one.

The other benefit here is that you don't need to compete with the radiator for direct airflow. Combined with AI, the thermal limitations just seem to melt away.

 

Here's the details on my Lindsey Thermal Heat Pipe.

This is an AZRR rebuilt engine rated at about 300HP. Mild port, 750 x4 with a BNR stage1.
I tracked this car a few times and wanted to experiment with a different IC. Installing a front mount A2A IC in the desert didn't make sense. I've always been a fan of A2W so I tried this.

I used the 8" THP because of space. A 10" might fit.
I also have water injection so I figure the combination has some promise.

I drove this car to Seven Stock and it performed without any issues. I logged several pulls with my Rtek and compared them to my earlier date using the stock top mount IC. IAT's seemed comparable but I didn't like some of the max temps I was seeing.
After reviewing my water injection nozzle size, I realized I could use a larger nozzle or 2 nozzles for staged injection. As of today, the car is going back together to fix an exhaust leak (different story) and I will be installing a WI nozzle in front of the THP. You can see the original nozzle in the picture above.

So all of this is still in experimentation to maximize the intake charge. A combination of THP and water or WA injection will most likely be the ticket.

If not, I would try either the PWR or the Frozen Boost cheapo mounted between the radiator and the front of the engine.

The THP Can be used anywhere you have a long enough pipe run. Naturally, the longer, the better.

As for my heat exchanger, its a dual 6 pass Perma Cool unit. 4 passes are water, 2 passes are power steering fluid.
One of my benchmarks is my friend's Roush Stage 3 Mustang. 400+ HP supercharged with A2W. His heat exchanger doesn't even use a fan, mine has a fan. I popped the hood immediately after he got off the track a stuck my finger in the coolant reservoir. Less that 140F. Mine runs around the same in Phoenix on 108F days.

Pump is a Shurflo mag coupled, brush-less DC motor. It is on when the ignition is on, always circulating.
Reservoir tank is the stock headlight washer tank, 1 gallon!

 

yankeetratr - It sounds like you have some doubts? You said you were experiencing higher peak temps with the THP over the stock IC?

Then you go on to suggest there are other options that might cool better? I appreciate the experimentation, such as spraying water before the THP. I look forward to your results.

I found this on the frozen boost site:

 

So you are running a system that is completely separate from your engine Radiator coolant. It has it's own rad, fluid and reservoir.

The attraction of the system when I first saw it like this



was that I could eliminate the stock IC altogether with the addition of only a small pump and some hose plumbed to the Koyo rad. This would increase throttle response and add some simplicity.

If I have to add an additional heat exchanger, plus a fluid reservoir and a pump then I mind as well just get an upgraded SMIC. It doesn't get as hot here as in AZ anyway .

 

The frozen boost unit seems to be a good value.

I like the extra cooling capacity this larger unit has and I still have room for it mounted up front. I would still keep the WI/WAI.

I'd like to hear from someone who has used one of these.

I now have the foundation in pumps, heat exchanger, wires and tubing to pursue the next level. We'll see how the current system performs with the two stage WI.

 

sip,

Yes, its an independent system.

If you go independent, I would suggest you use on of the small Honda type core/fin heat exchangers available at Frozen Boost i believe. I think they may be more efficient.

Driving around in Phoenix is a worse case test bed. Ambient air makes a lot of difference.

By the way, throttle response much improved.

Dont give up on A2W. Check these guys out.

 

Focus?

Humm, that is a pretty nifty setup with the centrifugal blower, charge pipes and IC all within a foot of the throttle body. That would snap your neck pretty good at the 1st touch of the throttle.

 

Hmm this seems interesting.. I wonder if it is as simple as it looks.

I wonder if the hood even closes. Is this a single turbo set up? Reminds me of it.

 

Yeah Zetec is focus. Centrifugal type super charger it looks like... I think these cars made around 150-170whp with this blower? and a Centrifugal still is related to RPM, not quite instant boost either.

Anyways! this IC seems interesting.. and the price of.. what? 700 for the "kit" thats not bad... hmmmmm

 

this could be of a real benefit for autox and road course racers. a more direct path form turbo to throttle body, and a direct flow from the bumpers opening to the radiator.

I like to see some good research on temps before and after the i/c compared to a standard FMIC, pressure drop, and CFM relative to size

 

Coming home from SSX in September, it was 108 in the desert. If I got on it, I could see 168F TB temps even with my #5 WI nozzle.

So I was concerned that the combination was still not good enough. I haven't driven it since November because I was changing other stuff.
With the cooler ambient, I'm sure I will see better temps.

Still it was capable of taking 10 psi boost temps, which are around 250F and knocking them down to 168F in 108 ambient. The combination is close and maybe even tolerable in cooler climates.
I want and need more performance for AZ and track sessions.

In this case, size matters so other combinations will work better. Two in-line, Two parallel. Lindsey makes 6, 8, 10 & 12" I believe.

The biggest issue about these A2W IC's is no manufacturer is able/willing to post hard thermal efficiency data. Your guessing based on the only spec that they offer, which is CFM flow rate. They tell you it will flow 500cfm but they won't/can't tell you it can cool it.

I like this set-up.

 

yankeetratr - This is probably a stupid question, but is your car an FC? I was just looking in my engine bay, and I don't have nearly the same space available above the alternator as you do.

In fact, just trying to picture how to fit piping from the turbos directly to the TB looked really tricky. It is almost as if running a pipe to the front SMIC area and then back to the throttle body is the only way it would fit under there.

Looking at the picture on the boat you just posted, that is basically the layout I determined would actually fit under the hood in my FD. So with that in mind, I wonder how much improvement there would actually be in throttle response when compared to a SMIC. Additionally, one should not forget the additional draw on the alternator the water pump will add. I still see benefit overall though, becuase A2W ICs do not need direct air flow on the core, which is really great.

I'm doing research on A2W today and I've found some interesting articles concerning how to properly pump the water. One should match the flow characteristics of the Core (water part) with the HE (heat exchanger). You don't want any bottlenecks in the water flow. You also want it to flow FAST to reach turbulent flow. This increases the cooling properties of the flowing water exponentially. So In other words, a choked water flow made by too small of plumbing or sharp curves, or the wrong HE, results in a poorly performing A2W install.

In order to build such a system in equilibrium, you also need to know the fluid pressure drop across any A2W core under evaluation. High pressure drops mean they will strain the pump and flow more slowly (bad).

 

The car is a 1988 10AE FC.

Wrapping around the front is best I think. You can get a larger/longer A2W IC in that space at a small sacrifice of extra pipe length. Just like the picture.

Balancing the pump flow rate to the IC and Heat Exchanger is ideal. Best tried with experimentation and perhaps a throttle valve after the pump. Best to include a pressure gauge at the pump outlet to compare pressure to the pump curve.

Pump amps is usually 3-5.

 

Well I may be trying this. I haven't made an ultimate decision yet because it will be running on a half bridge 400whp engine. I'll be using their longest pipe with their 6 pass radiator with fan.

ynkeetratr, I understand that water must be moving at a good rate, but don't forget if you move water too fast you will have the same problems as not moving fast enough, I've had plenty of experience with LS1 engines overheating because the lines I used were just too big and the coolant wasn't staying in the radiator long enough to cool off. Peak temps went from 230 down to 200.

 

Part of your problem is the fact that you are using just water injection.

Water is more for the combustion chamber cooling.

methanol is x times better at cooling iats, where water is almost twice as effective as methanol at cooling combustion chamber temps, and something like 6 times better than gasoline.

 

I was looking at these ages ago just wondering if any body has any more info or are running one of these.

 

Moving the coolant too fast will not, in itself, cause overheating. The faster it moves, the BETTER the heat transfer becomes, and the more uniform temperatures remain throughout the system.

Problems can arise, though, due to a couple of related phenomena:
1. cavitation (localized boiling) in the block at hot spots due to low pressure on the backside of restrictions
2. in your mentioned LS1 case, too much slow-moving coolant volume between the block and the radiator, increasing the delay in getting hot coolant to the radiator and cooled coolant back to the block, causing more fluctuation in coolant temperature.

 

This is fascinating stuff.... subscribed.

 

MAN!! I wish I would have seen this when I had the rotary with no IC running water/methanol.

If anyone in PHX wants to run one of these and wants a Fluidyne radiator setup to mount vertically and allow space for a cold air induction (which drops turbo outlet temps SUBSTANTIALLY) and also has a top plate to duct it... I will basically give them the cooling setup to see how it all turns out. I have a new Howe radiator for my LS1 setup and am not going to need the Fluidyne.

Here is an old pic of my setup...

I will try to find some more to show the radiator. I had totally eliminated the rotary heat problem but lost my engine due to a wastegate line failure and 30psi of boost. The water/methanol nearly saved me, but it was just too hot up at that boost level...maybe a small cooler would have allowed me to skirt by. I dont know.

I do know that this thing was EXACTLY what i was looking for. Such cool stuff!