What in the world did i just come across?
01-23-09, 11:01 AM
#26
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Monkman... Lindsey is viewed by the Porsche crowd as a Mandeville. He is the top of the food chain for 4 cylinder blown Porsche motors. Not a guy to be doubted...
One of these and water injection looks like one of the best possible setups to me. The lack of air flow at the grille has always made it hard to make a radiator and intercooler get enough air. There should be no problem with plumbing it into the radiator, since its now getting all the air flow.
Gordon
One of these and water injection looks like one of the best possible setups to me. The lack of air flow at the grille has always made it hard to make a radiator and intercooler get enough air. There should be no problem with plumbing it into the radiator, since its now getting all the air flow.
Gordon
EDIT: i just spoke with Dave Lindsey. These were developed to supplement the air-to-air by utilizing the straight pipe to get a little more cooling. They recently had one of these replace an air-to-air in an RX7 out of AZ. He is going to send me a pic of the install and any information from the owner of that FD about the IATs, etc...
I guess I never considered Air to water and I don't know why not. Maybe it just took some really cool looking ones to peek my interest.
As far as installation, Dave said you can run off the stock radiator, or put a smaller radiator in series with the stock one to help, or run completely separate radiators. It is really up to you to customize that part. They just sell the tubes.
01-23-09, 11:12 AM
#29
Mother****ing Wow
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,290
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please let me know if you have some more info on this topic... I'm kinda intrigued/scared.
01-23-09, 11:49 AM
#31
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is the RX7. Apparently, it cooled just as well as the air-to-air that was previously installed. But I don't know if that was stock or what. The pipe looks small. Power level unknown.
But imagine the throttle response on that!!! And imagine the space he has up front with no IC there. Those lines may lead to the stock system, or perhaps a small radiator placed elsewhere. It is likely powered by an in-line pump in either case.
Here is how he modified the TB. sell the Greddy elbow.
But imagine the throttle response on that!!! And imagine the space he has up front with no IC there. Those lines may lead to the stock system, or perhaps a small radiator placed elsewhere. It is likely powered by an in-line pump in either case.
Here is how he modified the TB. sell the Greddy elbow.
01-23-09, 12:00 PM
#32
Using heated water/antifreeze to cool heated i/c piping just doesn't make sense when you could tap from a separate looped system with a lower temp. to work from. Methanol has a flash point of 53.6F, so I probably won't go this route. Water based aux. injection will be a lot safer.
01-23-09, 12:10 PM
#33
400Rwhp Seq Twins Baby!!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: "Sunny" ol England
Posts: 362
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very interesting concept. I imagine the throttle response would be great using one of these but again, we would need more detailed info about how well they perform with FD's
01-23-09, 12:41 PM
#35
Mother****ing Wow
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,290
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem with the FD motor is simply cooling. It arises from the combination of the physical packaging and the boost run in relation to the size and placement of the air intake grille.
First, there is just so much "stuff" in the engine bay and most of it gives off heat. Adding a bigger radiator, bigger intercooler, and for those with single turbos, a bigger turbo and bigger down and hard pipes, combined with whatever else you add that's custom to your installation and build, just cause the engine bay to be extremely hot. Plus, in many (SMIC) installations, the air has to pass through the radiator before passing through the intercooler. Even with front or V-mount intercoolers it is tough to duct enough fresh air through them to allow them to optimally cool the water and air. This means that it is just so much more difficult to keep or get the engine air intake temperatures down to reasonable levels.
Second, everyone tends to want to run higher boost levels in order to make more power. Higher boost levels make detonation much more likely, since there will be considerably more heat, so any problem with the air fuel ratio or timing advance will make the motor detonate more readily.
Third, the grille size and placement does not bring a lot of air into the engine bay to begin with and that's one major reason for the redesigned 99 spec front bumper that has a notably larger grille similar to some of the aftermarket front bumpers that also have larger grille openings.
So, the best "single" solution is really what Howard Coleman is talking about in the thread on "the case for the FD"... where he talks about the extremely valuable help that water injection can provide. Anyone who hasn't read through that thread -- looking at it only from the standpoint of its cooling benefits to reliability -- needs to read it very carefully. Notice that Brian Cain is trying a setup that doesn't even use an intercooler, but solely depends on the water injection system to keep the engine from detonating.
Next, there is currently this thread on "what the hell is this I just came across???" which is a very bad title, because it won't attract as many readers as it should, but points out a new air-to-water pipe-with-internal-fins-based intercooler from Lindsey Racing, one of the top engineering firms working solely with Porsche 4 cylinder engines. (I have used them for a turbo'd 4 cylinder Porsche motor years ago. They are among the very best guys out there.)
It is my humble opinion that the Lindsey intercooling pipe and Acquamist (or other) water injection are the best possible setup available today for the modified or stock FD. Bar none... the best.
This setup eliminates the big intercooler entirely and let's all of the available airflow go through just the radiator faster and in higher volume. The pipe intercooler should be as or more efficient than any aftermarket intercooler of the standard type box design. Plus, and Howard and others make the case really well, adding water injection is the single best way to eliminate detonation and make the motor reliable.
I wish we had had this setup available many years ago and we wouldn't have all the people blowing their engines and complaining and believing that the rotary cannot be reliable. It could always have been made reliable. (I never blew mine even running 450 whp) Now, anyone who blows their engine should accept that its just their own fault for not doing the inexpensive things that they could have to prevent it.
(The soapbox is now vacant...)
Gordon
First, there is just so much "stuff" in the engine bay and most of it gives off heat. Adding a bigger radiator, bigger intercooler, and for those with single turbos, a bigger turbo and bigger down and hard pipes, combined with whatever else you add that's custom to your installation and build, just cause the engine bay to be extremely hot. Plus, in many (SMIC) installations, the air has to pass through the radiator before passing through the intercooler. Even with front or V-mount intercoolers it is tough to duct enough fresh air through them to allow them to optimally cool the water and air. This means that it is just so much more difficult to keep or get the engine air intake temperatures down to reasonable levels.
Second, everyone tends to want to run higher boost levels in order to make more power. Higher boost levels make detonation much more likely, since there will be considerably more heat, so any problem with the air fuel ratio or timing advance will make the motor detonate more readily.
Third, the grille size and placement does not bring a lot of air into the engine bay to begin with and that's one major reason for the redesigned 99 spec front bumper that has a notably larger grille similar to some of the aftermarket front bumpers that also have larger grille openings.
So, the best "single" solution is really what Howard Coleman is talking about in the thread on "the case for the FD"... where he talks about the extremely valuable help that water injection can provide. Anyone who hasn't read through that thread -- looking at it only from the standpoint of its cooling benefits to reliability -- needs to read it very carefully. Notice that Brian Cain is trying a setup that doesn't even use an intercooler, but solely depends on the water injection system to keep the engine from detonating.
Next, there is currently this thread on "what the hell is this I just came across???" which is a very bad title, because it won't attract as many readers as it should, but points out a new air-to-water pipe-with-internal-fins-based intercooler from Lindsey Racing, one of the top engineering firms working solely with Porsche 4 cylinder engines. (I have used them for a turbo'd 4 cylinder Porsche motor years ago. They are among the very best guys out there.)
It is my humble opinion that the Lindsey intercooling pipe and Acquamist (or other) water injection are the best possible setup available today for the modified or stock FD. Bar none... the best.
This setup eliminates the big intercooler entirely and let's all of the available airflow go through just the radiator faster and in higher volume. The pipe intercooler should be as or more efficient than any aftermarket intercooler of the standard type box design. Plus, and Howard and others make the case really well, adding water injection is the single best way to eliminate detonation and make the motor reliable.
I wish we had had this setup available many years ago and we wouldn't have all the people blowing their engines and complaining and believing that the rotary cannot be reliable. It could always have been made reliable. (I never blew mine even running 450 whp) Now, anyone who blows their engine should accept that its just their own fault for not doing the inexpensive things that they could have to prevent it.
(The soapbox is now vacant...)
Gordon
01-23-09, 01:04 PM
#36
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Using heated water/antifreeze to cool heated i/c piping just doesn't make sense when you could tap from a separate looped system with a lower temp. to work from. Methanol has a flash point of 53.6F, so I probably won't go this route. Water based aux. injection will be a lot safer.
Water absorbs almost twice as much heat per volume as methanol. So as a cooling liquid, use water. It sounds like you would be attracted to using a separate core to cool an air-to-water system. That way it would be cooler than the normal engine coolant.
01-23-09, 01:11 PM
#37
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
gordon - I agree with your long post above. In fact, it seems that is the direction I'm moving as I put together this next build. But one thing I want to discuss.. the IATs.
Water does wonders for knock, steam cleaning, and combustion temperatures. But it doesn't really lower IATs like methanol. So the fact remains, that we'd need to see some empirical data comparing this tubular air-to-water system to normal intercoolers.
I want the lowest IATs possible, while not using methanol. So I'm thinking a more robust Air-water install would be the answer. Maybe two tubes with a separate radiator strategically placed... in any event, I want more data on how well these things cool vs. the number/length of tubes and size of radiator. If i have to fab something, I want to do it right the first time.
The PWR website actually sells complete KITs with HP applications. The 500whp kit is like $1,100. But they don't look as good and are much bigger than the Lindsey racing pipes. But again, no data to compare the two.
What's your take on the IATs that Lindey's piping will give us? I spoke with Dave Lindsey today and he didn't really have an answer other than it was designed to be used on a specific Porsche as a pipe leading to the normal air/air IC. He did mention though, that the RX7 I pictured above is in Arizona - which is promising, considering the latent heat.
Water does wonders for knock, steam cleaning, and combustion temperatures. But it doesn't really lower IATs like methanol. So the fact remains, that we'd need to see some empirical data comparing this tubular air-to-water system to normal intercoolers.
I want the lowest IATs possible, while not using methanol. So I'm thinking a more robust Air-water install would be the answer. Maybe two tubes with a separate radiator strategically placed... in any event, I want more data on how well these things cool vs. the number/length of tubes and size of radiator. If i have to fab something, I want to do it right the first time.
The PWR website actually sells complete KITs with HP applications. The 500whp kit is like $1,100. But they don't look as good and are much bigger than the Lindsey racing pipes. But again, no data to compare the two.
What's your take on the IATs that Lindey's piping will give us? I spoke with Dave Lindsey today and he didn't really have an answer other than it was designed to be used on a specific Porsche as a pipe leading to the normal air/air IC. He did mention though, that the RX7 I pictured above is in Arizona - which is promising, considering the latent heat.
01-23-09, 01:28 PM
#38
Mother****ing Wow
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,290
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First, Howard Coleman and a few others are methanol gurus and I am not. However, I do not like to create custom, one off things, where you are mixing systems. (Back in 96-99 I did a lot of novel things and learned a lot. It always took way longer and cost more and didn't always do what I had hoped.)
So, no, I would not run methanol through the Lindsey pipe-intercooler. I would install it as close to what Lindsey recommends as possible and keep the various fluids and air systems distinct and separate. I also do not think methanol injection is anything I would do to any of my cars, since you can make more than enough power, say, 400-550 whp or more, reliably, without it. The more "systems" you have the more complexity and that s usually bad for anything but all-out-power, say, 550-750 whp, for racing purposes. Adding methanol injection means you really now have a gas tank, a water tank, and now a methanol tank, plus, the injectors and pumps for all this.
Gordon
So, no, I would not run methanol through the Lindsey pipe-intercooler. I would install it as close to what Lindsey recommends as possible and keep the various fluids and air systems distinct and separate. I also do not think methanol injection is anything I would do to any of my cars, since you can make more than enough power, say, 400-550 whp or more, reliably, without it. The more "systems" you have the more complexity and that s usually bad for anything but all-out-power, say, 550-750 whp, for racing purposes. Adding methanol injection means you really now have a gas tank, a water tank, and now a methanol tank, plus, the injectors and pumps for all this.
Gordon
01-23-09, 01:53 PM
#39
The problem with the FD motor is simply cooling. It arises from the combination of the physical packaging and the boost run in relation to the size and placement of the air intake grille.
....
First, there is just so much "stuff" in the engine bay and most of it gives off heat. Adding a bigger radiator, bigger intercooler, and for those with single turbos, a bigger turbo and bigger down and hard pipes, combined with whatever else you add that's custom to your installation and build, just cause the engine bay to be extremely hot. Plus, in many (SMIC) installations, the air has to pass through the radiator before passing through the intercooler. <snip>
....
First, there is just so much "stuff" in the engine bay and most of it gives off heat. Adding a bigger radiator, bigger intercooler, and for those with single turbos, a bigger turbo and bigger down and hard pipes, combined with whatever else you add that's custom to your installation and build, just cause the engine bay to be extremely hot. Plus, in many (SMIC) installations, the air has to pass through the radiator before passing through the intercooler. <snip>
On track with my non-ducted setup, coolant and air temps are very manageable. I see about 95-105*C coolant temps on track (depends on ambient temps range 70-90* F) pushing as hard my skills permit. Air temps stay quite low on track but creep up due to the heat soak and dispersal associated with the sensor being under the UIM.
I used both SMIC and FMIC and the V-mount is far superior from an air flow perspective (other perspectives as well but that is off topic for this thread).
Now, I'm completely ignorant about water-air intercooling so I pose this question to anyone who knows:
What happens to the air temps when the coolant temps are high - such as with track usage?
01-23-09, 02:14 PM
#40
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sure your V-mount is way more capable than most people need, but they aren't cheap. And it does have to pressurize for you to get boost.
Oh and I had said that PWR sells kits, but I found that Lindsey sells a "kit" as well. You have to fab your own lines and piping:
http://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Parts/KITS.html
01-23-09, 02:15 PM
#41
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
zenofspeed... It is consistent with Dave L that he would only comment on what he knew and designed to work. However, look in the AI subforum at Brain Cain's experimenting with just using water injection and no intercooler at all. This is something I thought about a lot back in the 90's and I think he will show that it works. So, if water injection alone would keep things from detonating, the addition of a water-to-air pipe setup will work better. Intake Air Temperatures (IAT's) effect 2 things. First, they relate to heat in the combustion chamber and detonation and, second, they minorly effect the total air fuel you can get through the motor.
I think the Lindsey pipe plus water injection would do everything you need, assuming you are not trying to build a 500+whp 13b. Over that, you need the best (most) of everything. (Though, as I keep saying, if you are not using the car for real racing, not just track days, I think its patently stupid to have more than 450-500 whp in a 2800 pound car. My old car made 425-600 whp depending on boost and I found it uncomfortable and scary at over 450 or so and I'm nuts. Just not young enough to be immortal anymore...)
Gordon
I think the Lindsey pipe plus water injection would do everything you need, assuming you are not trying to build a 500+whp 13b. Over that, you need the best (most) of everything. (Though, as I keep saying, if you are not using the car for real racing, not just track days, I think its patently stupid to have more than 450-500 whp in a 2800 pound car. My old car made 425-600 whp depending on boost and I found it uncomfortable and scary at over 450 or so and I'm nuts. Just not young enough to be immortal anymore...)
Gordon
i don't mind being one of the first to have a Lindsey pipe/WI car with no IC. I hate the way the front of an FD has such limited space and airflow.
01-23-09, 03:21 PM
#43
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It was over 100* for 55 days last year here. That is why I'm so concerned with it. But I can just design the system to handle it.
longer pipe.... Faster water pump (fast is better in air-to-water)... and a decently placed radiator with fan.
longer pipe.... Faster water pump (fast is better in air-to-water)... and a decently placed radiator with fan.
01-23-09, 04:15 PM
#44
Hmmm.....
If the liquid cooling medium requires its own heat exchanger (radiator/IC type of device), plumbing to route the liquid medium to the pipe cooling contraption and I suppose some kind of pump to move the fluid, is it really "smaller" overall? Seems like it would take up the same amount of space.
Having spent many hours trying to package a V-mount with my buddy Speed of light and trying to figure out where to locate a catch can underhood, I can speculate that there will just as many challenges trying to package all those components.
That would be an attractive benefit. I love crisp throttle response.
Don't mean to pick apart your comments just trying to better understand this stuff.
BTW - My intercooler is overkill size-wise for my setup but it was in the garage so I used it. It is an M2 Large. I might someday use a smaller IC and larger air filters but it works for now. Full boost by 2500 RPM. 3-500 RPM sooner than my old Greddy FMIC.
Having spent many hours trying to package a V-mount with my buddy Speed of light and trying to figure out where to locate a catch can underhood, I can speculate that there will just as many challenges trying to package all those components.
That would be an attractive benefit. I love crisp throttle response.
Don't mean to pick apart your comments just trying to better understand this stuff.
BTW - My intercooler is overkill size-wise for my setup but it was in the garage so I used it. It is an M2 Large. I might someday use a smaller IC and larger air filters but it works for now. Full boost by 2500 RPM. 3-500 RPM sooner than my old Greddy FMIC.
01-23-09, 04:26 PM
#45
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No worries. I appreciate the discussion.
I'm not really sure if a separate radiator is "required." But the ones I'm seeing aren't that big, maybe oil cooler size? Maybe just stagger it up front with the stock radiator? It would be much thinner than an air/air core and doesn't require big pipes leading to it which make placement a cinch in comparison.
I have a greddy SMIC and relocated battery, aftermarket AST, aftermarket intake. I have tons of room for misc things and would have even more if I switched to this system over the greddy. I'm also on twins and going single, so the engine-bay will be even more open.
I could easily fit a V-Mount, but I bet the throttle response is there on the pipe IC. David mentioned that after he talked to the owner of that White RX7 (pictured) the owner commented on the improvement to response. That alone is worth pursuing the idea, IMO. Plus, as Howard mentioned, this will be used in conjunction with AI. Either 100% water or 50/50 water/meth. I can't decide.
I just found out today that I'm getting another "profit sharing" bonus from my company. So this is becoming a possible reality in the near future. i feel like a kid in a candy store.
I'm not really sure if a separate radiator is "required." But the ones I'm seeing aren't that big, maybe oil cooler size? Maybe just stagger it up front with the stock radiator? It would be much thinner than an air/air core and doesn't require big pipes leading to it which make placement a cinch in comparison.
I have a greddy SMIC and relocated battery, aftermarket AST, aftermarket intake. I have tons of room for misc things and would have even more if I switched to this system over the greddy. I'm also on twins and going single, so the engine-bay will be even more open.
I could easily fit a V-Mount, but I bet the throttle response is there on the pipe IC. David mentioned that after he talked to the owner of that White RX7 (pictured) the owner commented on the improvement to response. That alone is worth pursuing the idea, IMO. Plus, as Howard mentioned, this will be used in conjunction with AI. Either 100% water or 50/50 water/meth. I can't decide.
I just found out today that I'm getting another "profit sharing" bonus from my company. So this is becoming a possible reality in the near future. i feel like a kid in a candy store.
01-23-09, 06:22 PM
#46
When in Rome...
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 288
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE=zenofspeed;8905461 i feel like a kid in a candy store. [/QUOTE]
zenofspeed I know exactly what you mean, I gotta thank catch-22 for finding this and for everyone contributing their thoughts on this. I was planning on doing a V-mount but Elaine from Banzai didn't recommend it due to heat soak, I'm sure some people have effectively ducted one well but overall unless you track a lot you shouldn't need one. As you some of you may know someone here (I forget his name) has had really good temps with a FMIC due to excellent ducting...again it's all about ducting. Anywho, I plan on getting one soon most likely 2, one 6" and one 10". I'll look into it more on what sizes I'll use.
~Shar
[/QUOTE] zenofspeed I know exactly what you mean, I gotta thank catch-22 for finding this and for everyone contributing their thoughts on this. I was planning on doing a V-mount but Elaine from Banzai didn't recommend it due to heat soak, I'm sure some people have effectively ducted one well but overall unless you track a lot you shouldn't need one. As you some of you may know someone here (I forget his name) has had really good temps with a FMIC due to excellent ducting...again it's all about ducting. Anywho, I plan on getting one soon most likely 2, one 6" and one 10". I'll look into it more on what sizes I'll use.
~Shar
01-23-09, 07:41 PM
#47
RHD Track Whore
The one in the FD application pictured looks very small. I wonder how much heat is being removed with these intercoolers. I know air-to-water intercoolers are more efficient and that the efficiency would be limited to the temps of the rad if it was plumbed that way.
I wonder what the intake/coolant temps were for the FD pictured.
How much of this IC tubing would be needed for an FD application is the real question?
I wonder what the intake/coolant temps were for the FD pictured.
How much of this IC tubing would be needed for an FD application is the real question?
01-23-09, 08:49 PM
#49
Monkman... Lindsey is viewed by the Porsche crowd as a Mandeville. He is the top of the food chain for 4 cylinder blown Porsche motors. Not a guy to be doubted...
One of these and water injection looks like one of the best possible setups to me. The lack of air flow at the grille has always made it hard to make a radiator and intercooler get enough air. There should be no problem with plumbing it into the radiator, since its now getting all the air flow.
Gordon
One of these and water injection looks like one of the best possible setups to me. The lack of air flow at the grille has always made it hard to make a radiator and intercooler get enough air. There should be no problem with plumbing it into the radiator, since its now getting all the air flow.
Gordon
Agreed, any IC + ai has got to be optimal for cooling.
I would not run this from the same radiator. The engine and turbo(s) are heating that coolant. You can only get your temps as low as ambient. If this setup were to be pulling from teh stock radiator... then you could only get your temps as low as your engine coolant temps. I would rather still run a v mount setup with two radiators and in my case the ac condenser. I bet it would be more effective if it is only fighting with iats and not the radiators coolant temps from teh engine and turbo(s)
And zen, 50/50 water/meth will cool your iats AND steam clean your engine and lower ccps The water is the best part.
I am very interested in this product though. If it can perform to the degree of a good vmic, then I may adjust my build plans accordingly. I just want to see.
01-23-09, 09:06 PM
#50
Getting atomized water as close to the combustion chamber I think would be the best option. Thus keeping it from pooling in the system, and delivering it in uncontrolled amounts that would stall out the motor. Injecting the intake plenum would be my first choice.